"complete" Frames

[Zephyric_Reaper]

We all know most frames have one or two useless or sub-par abilities that are just dead weight to use and have in a set up. Reasons for this vary, it could be poor numbers, hard to use, situational uses, ect. Point is, because of these "useless" abilities people (myself included) tend to use formas to just take out double dash polarities from frames and replace them for something else. 

On the other hand, you have frames that use all their 4 abilities successfully and they all stand their weight. These frames are: Nova, Rhino, Excalibur, Mag and Loki. They feel complete since their 4 abilities have a use here and there (since Nova's null star doesn't stagger anymore she has shake-y grounds here). They're all frames that are relatively easy to use but most importantly, they're quite easy to mod. This means that the abilities on their own usually keep up even without mods, making modding these frames pretty easy since the base stats of the abilities are quite good, and the effects are very good as well.

Then we have frames that have 4 useful abilities BUT abilities on their own tend not to hold their weight and when modding, they tend to use a little bit of everything, making it very hard to choose when modding and often abilities get discarded to maximize others. In this group we have: Ember,Valkyr,  Saryn, Vauban, and Volt. These frames have a good kit, but all their abilities seem to be scattered around duration, strength, range and efficiency that it makes it really hard to choose modding. Ember for example, is a caster so one would want to maximize efficiency to keep up the abilitycasting, however the ultimate and ring need duration, then all abilities need strength and range to be effective and ember might also want rush to be able to hit as many enemies possible with world on fire. In the end, it becomes quite hard to set up mods for these frames since one could eliminate a few abilities to maximize on damage, crowd control, support, ect. 

Lastly, we've got frames that feel in terrible need to forma out some abilities because they just don't pull their weight and actually are a hassle to use. These frames would be the rest, which are 7. Examples of these "useless" abilities would be: freeze, soul punch, dive bomb, teleport, ect. While they can be used, they're abilities afterall, they just cost more effort to use than the reward they give. An example of this would be using dive bomb on a crowd of enemies; it doesn't affect enemies behind others, sometimes it doesn't stun any, it only works on enemies on the same ground level and so on. See? it's actually VERY bothersome to use. One could argue that those abilities can be used in a situation that is one in a hundred but that's not the point of an ability. It's not to be used only when stars align together, it's meant to be used constantly and if those stars do align, then the ability is suddenly a lifesaver or such. 

 

What I want to get to is that the focus on balancing should be that all frames feel "complete". That one could use the entire kit of 4 abilities without feeling the need to only press one key constantly. This can be done with synergy within the kit, having good base stats in all abilities and such. Many abilities NEED a lot of mods in order to become acceptable which hurts the modding of other abilities. The conflict bewteen abilities should be less, there should be more synergy among all. Take frost for example, modding for range is actually bad for snowglobe but it's neccesary for avalanche because of it's terribly low base range. Or Ember having such a conflicting ultimate that depends both on duration and strength which pushes her to only use world on fire instead of fleeting expertise+all her abilities. 

 

In the end, many people can argue that their build works and what not and I'm sure it does but my point remains. Many frames feel incomplete, with lackluster abilities and one wishes there was a use for them because narrowing the ability pool makes the game more boring and involve less decisions. 

 

TL;DR

Make all ability kits flexible, fun to use, actually useful, less situational and more reliable. That way frames won't feel gimped while using all 4 abilities.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Zephyric_Reaper

[fishworshipper]

I find it funny that you say Soul Punch is useless...

Because instant knockdown of your enemy and everyone behind them is useless. Totally. 100%. Especially in very high level content.

 

However, I can and will agree that several 'frames need some of their abilities rebalanced. I just wouldn't put Nekros in that group. I'd probably put him in the Sayrn, Valkyr, Vauban group.

Edited March 16, 2014 by fishworshipper

[Zephyric_Reaper]

I find it funny that you say Soul Punch is useless..s

Because instant knockdown of your enemy and everyone behind them is useless. Totally. 100%. Especially in very high level content.

 

Situational. You'd get the same result from a bow, except all enemies in a line die. 

I said one could argue abilities have uses but they're very situational. I've used soul punch back and forth and yes, it has a use but it's most like at lvl 50+, against something a gun can't right away, with enemies standing in a line (which tend to never happen since enemies avoid doing so), and with casting delay and pinpoint accuracy. 

I think you must agree, that is situational. 

[Archwizard]

I find it funny that you say Soul Punch is useless...

Because instant knockdown of your enemy and everyone behind them is useless. Totally. 100%. Especially in very high level content.

 

Instant knockdown that only reliably hits one enemy and requires very precise targeting proportional to its range, with a very thin (and basically invisible) line of effect behind them, which must compare with abilities such as Pull and Sonic Boom capable of doing the same on a grander scale, with less effort, AT THE SAME COST?

 

I don't even think it knocks down anyone behind them, just deals some damage.

 

Tack on that he wouldn't need the extra CC provided by it (and his ult!) if Terrify did its job correctly, and that Desecrate has virtually no effect on the rest of his skills (other than compelling players to completely ignore them)...

Edited March 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[LurkenLurker]

Instant knockdown that only reliably hits one enemy and requires very precise targeting proportional to its range, with a very thin (and basically invisible) line of effect behind them, which must compare with abilities such as Pull and Sonic Boom capable of doing the same on a grander scale?

 

I don't even think it knocks down anyone behind them, just deals some damage.

I belive they ragdoll intothe enemy behind the target

[Archwizard]

I belive they ragdoll intothe enemy behind the target

 

Which I think we can agree ragdolling trajectories are highly unpredictable (see: Pull). I've hit targets with Soul Punch and watched them fly straight sideways before.

 

Sure, it gives him a little bit of splash damage... which

is useless. Totally. 100%. Especially in very high level content.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[Orbister]

well i think many abilities need a rework, i do not agree that we should be able to use all 4 abilities with the same strenght i think that its good to have to choose if u want to specialize in one or another build, i think that most "useless" skills could become less "useless" and a little bit more "appealing" if they had more interesting procs and conditions, for example Oberon's first skill... it's just a waste of time... i can one shot things with my weapon.. why would a waste time getting in range and aiming carefully at ONE enemy when i can just shoot a burst from my rifle and kill a group... i think most of the "useless" skills are not properly developed and rushed because they DO sound interesting on paper but in the practice they just FAIL, the same with oberon's hallowed ground... it could cause a slow or disorientation or something... it's just stupid to throw a mean carpet made of fire if i can just kill the mobs directly...

[sorq]

I believe Nekros is in the Vauban and Saryn's group as well. Other than that, reworking on abilities will take a super long time especially when they got other priorities like end-game content, etc etc. 

 

Furthermore, with a potato-ed frame + maybe 5-6 forma (if you are hardcore), there's only that much mods you can put in. Remember that you're sacrificing a mod slot for an ability which may or may not have mattered since you are already not using them in your current gameplay.

 

Basically, i'm saying that this is definitely not something worth looking at before end-game content is up.

[Archwizard]

Also, just gonna shamelessly plug one of my threads here, which discusses basically the same topic.

[Axterix13]

Then we have frames that have 4 useful abilities BUT abilities on their own tend not to hold their weight and when modding, they tend to use a little bit of everything, making it very hard to choose when modding and often abilities get discarded to maximize others. In this group we have: Ember,Valkyr,  Saryn, Vauban, and Volt. These frames have a good kit, but all their abilities seem to be scattered around duration, strength, range and efficiency that it makes it really hard to choose modding. Ember for example, is a caster so one would want to maximize efficiency to keep up the abilitycasting, however the ultimate and ring need duration, then all abilities need strength and range to be effective and ember might also want rush to be able to hit as many enemies possible with world on fire. In the end, it becomes quite hard to set up mods for these frames since one could eliminate a few abilities to maximize on damage, crowd control, support, ect.

Using a Corrupted Mod should have a cost.  That's the whole point to them having a drawback.  If the devs just wanted them to benefit us, they'd only boost the one stat and that's that.  Likewise, we should have reasons to want to use different mods.  If powers are done right, then that having to make choices means different builds are possible, rather than there being one mod setup that is the right one for the frame.  In other words, these are the ideal to which frames should be balanced.

 

Though I'd disagree with including Saryn in this group.  Her first ability is not exactly worth using barring certain circumstances (AoE weapon, endless mode typically).  Her third is worse yet, as melee isn't that viable currently without invis, she lacks knockdown resistance (something that should really be added to her #3), and why spend 75 (base) for a minor melee boost when you can spend a third more and wipe out everything in a 15m base radius?

 

Anyway, that said, while I do think every power should be useful, I'd like to see frames come with only three slots polarized for abilities.  The fourth one is mostly just an annoyance, something to forma away on many frames.  And even if you choose to use all four abilities, the benefit is one mod point, since every frame has its 0 base cost ability, which maxes at 3, and costs 2 in the polarized slot.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Axterix13

[seren77]

It does vary on personal opinion some, as I think bullet attractor doesnt deserve a slot on mag especially since using corrupt mods to boost the other 3 spells weakens an already weak bullet attractor, Rhino's charge is another skill I doubt everyone uses.

 

I run only 2 spells on valkyr and saryn, 3 on zeph, 4 on vauban and loki etc

 

Some of these pointless and very mediocre spells need to be looked at.

[-CM-Syein]

-Nova (tossed out null star)

-Rhino (tossed out Rhino charge)

-Excalibur (tossed out slash dash) 

-Loki (tossed out switch teleport) .__. 

-Mag (tossed out bullet attractor) 

 

The only frames that I put every skills on without ever toss out anything is Trinity. (many might have considered toss out her well of life, but well of life is like a back up for blessing, in case you only lose a bit of HP and don't wanted to waste huge energy just to regain that small amount of HP lost) 

[Zephyric_Reaper]

-Nova (tossed out null star)

-Rhino (tossed out Rhino charge)

-Excalibur (tossed out slash dash) 

-Loki (tossed out switch teleport) .__. 

-Mag (tossed out bullet attractor) 

 

The only frames that I put every skills on without ever toss out anything is Trinity. (many might have considered toss out her well of life, but well of life is like a back up for blessing, in case you only lose a bit of HP and don't wanted to waste huge energy just to regain that small amount of HP lost) 

 

You can toss to specialize. Like, I made my excalibur a support CC with pure radial blind and slash dash for map presence. But the point is that those abilities have good base stats and stand well on their own without any mods. You don't NEED mods to make their kit feel useful, that's what I'm saying. 

 

 

Using a Corrupted Mod should have a cost.  That's the whole point to them having a drawback.  If the devs just wanted them to benefit us, they'd only boost the one stat and that's that.  Likewise, we should have reasons to want to use different mods.  If powers are done right, then that having to make choices means different builds are possible, rather than there being one mod setup that is the right one for the frame.  In other words, these are the ideal to which frames should be balanced.

 

Though I'd disagree with including Saryn in this group.  Her first ability is not exactly worth using barring certain circumstances (AoE weapon, endless mode typically).  Her third is worse yet, as melee isn't that viable currently without invis, she lacks knockdown resistance (something that should really be added to her #3), and why spend 75 (base) for a minor melee boost when you can spend a third more and wipe out everything in a 15m base radius?

 

Anyway, that said, while I do think every power should be useful, I'd like to see frames come with only three slots polarized for abilities.  The fourth one is mostly just an annoyance, something to forma away on many frames.  And even if you choose to use all four abilities, the benefit is one mod point, since every frame has its 0 base cost ability, which maxes at 3, and costs 2 in the polarized slot.

 

I wondered too, to put Saryn in that group. But truth is that having contagion deal an extra 2k dmg from orthos P slide is quite a benefit but not eactly game breaking. Her skills are somewhat situational but they help in most content than anything. 

As for corrupted mods taking some risk. Well, there's a reason why people prefer Nova over Ember. Besides being easier to use, Nova can easily go away with fleeting expertise and since she's a caster she can use her abilities freely, on top of that, most of her abilities deal more damage. Ember, on the other hand, must combo her abilities (accelerant, fire blast, world on fire) for CC and damage which makes no sense. Ember is the one that needs to cast more and she's the one that is affected worse by fleeting. It's time for Devs to see things how they are. How each mods affects each frame and ability not just "this kit seems okay, lets put these numbers on and make it a day".

Take rhino's ultimate for example, it has damage, longest stun that works on bosses and LONGEST range. Why does it have the longet range? It doesn't need that. On the other hand, you got frost's ultimate that has no CC low range and just damage, with just 15 range when modding for range actually hurts his snowglobe, frost is the one that should start with much more range! 

See where I'm going? Abilities have to be balanced to realistic scenarios. We got very specific numbers of mods, their percentages are set so the numbers on abilities should be made so that they reflect the strength of the kit which can be made stronger with mods, not useful with mods. 

[Axterix13]

See where I'm going? Abilities have to be balanced to realistic scenarios. We got very specific numbers of mods, their percentages are set so the numbers on abilities should be made so that they reflect the strength of the kit which can be made stronger with mods, not useful with mods. 

Oh, I agree with that.  Numbers are out of whack.

 

M-Prime's duration, radius, and slow amount are all too high.  On the FE front, it's the duration that's the problem.  If it were 10s, then FE would actually have a cost.  Rhino's stun should be impacted by duration (and that means probably a lower base amount, or else a max duration it cannot exceed), and the radius is too big for what the frame is. 

 

Ember, well, she's the worst of the DPS frames.  Her third and fourth powers are weak, not hitting hard enough compared to what other frames have.  And yes, you can use Accelerant to help fix that.  However, that doesn't mean she shouldn't be impacted by duration so she can use FE.  One thing the devs could do is adjust the costs of her powers.  They don't have to go 25/50/75/100.  And really, that cost structure is silly, part of why we tend to focus on pressing 4 over 1.  Several frames already step away from that cost structure though, like Excalibur with his Super Jump.  So if the devs want us to cast more with her, while still leaving her properly impacted by the various mods, the simple solution is to lower her power costs.

 

That won't make her popular though.  Even if the total cost is the same, why play her and have to hit 2, then 4 when I could just hit 4 on another frame?  Why use a frame that needs 2 slots to make one decent power when there's plenty that do it in one?  If they want her to compare to other frames, the best bet would be to make WoF her #3, and make Fire Blast her #4, with it doing around 1200 damage (lower than the norm 15-1600ish due to Accelerant existing), and with about an 18m radius.  Of course, then you'd nerf the damage boost on Accelerant significantly, down to a 50% boost at max.  Accelerant is a bit of a noose around her neck.  As long as it boosts fire damage as much as it does, Ember's other abilities have to suck on their own.  Well, Fireball is fine, but the rest...

 

Also, I feel that at the root of it all, there's a focus on Efficiency.  Frames that can easily use FE and therefore hit 75% efficiency have a huge advantage over those that cannot.  That's because Efficiency is overpowered.  Sooner or later, if the devs are at all interested in balance, they will change Efficiency.  It's just too good right now.  Maybe they'll change it back to working like it used to (so 100% Efficiency translates to half cost).  Maybe they'll rework the corrupted mods, pairing Efficiency with Range rather than duration.  Or maybe they'll just drastically lower how much Efficiency FE provides.  Who knows?  I just know Efficiency is borked as it currently functions.  Efficiency being a problem, the solution is not to set up every frame so that they can benefit from the borked mechanic as well.  The proper solution is to fix the problem itself.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Axterix13