I Think I Understand A Few Of De's Moves.

[SolidSp33d]

     Quite honestly, the WHOLE reason that I got so into Warframe was the LACK of RNG based weapons. I HATE HATE HATE RNG systems for weapons. Games like Borderlands(2), Dungeon Fighter Online, most MMORPGs that I've played, anything that relies on RNG drops for weapons is highly aggravating for me when it comes to stats. The reason I was so into Warframe was that I can actually build the weapons just by gathering some easy to find components. Fantastic.

    The void started out relatively fine. Yes, the Reaper Blade was atrociously rare at first, but that was fixed. This was before the huge dilution problem. It got a little more difficult with Mag Prime and those weapons. I completely skipped Ember Prime and Co. in favor of getting the Misa Prime Syandana. Burston was a little harder, but not completely atrocious. But this latest group of weapons have been unnecessarily difficult to obtain. I've ran at least 15 or so T2 Survival missions and gotten ONE Gauntlet. Most of these have been up to 40 minutes. I now have 14 Mag Prime Chassis blueprints. FOURTEEN. That is seven missions, often consecutive, in which I have gotten TWO Mag Prime Chassis within the same mission at 20 and 40 minutes. Not to mention any times that were failed. Not to mention any that I have traded away for some reason. This is ridiculous. It IS a problem. 

Maybe this problem plagues older players more than newer players, but a game needs to cater to ALL players, not just new AND not just old. But to everyone. Unfortunately, this triple to quadruple layer of RNG is questionably good and bad. RNG systems can be completely horrible. When you get the same thing over and over again, it becomes really depressing. It increases burnout rate and it decreases desire to play. The only reason I personally came back to this game is due to my financial and emotional investment in the game. And because I enjoy the gameplay more than I dislike the grind. In fact, if you were to completely eliminate the grind, the odds of me playing something else are slim to none in regular circumstances. I actually ENJOY playing this game and playing WITH the weapons, not FOR the weapons. I may be an outlier on that graph, but still...

A token system truly benefits everyone. Even the developers. It will increase the desire to play just for the sake of playing instead of burning people out on grinding a completely horrible system. They could even sell token packs for straight money or for platinum, either way is a benefit to them. Different tiers of keys can be run for different amounts of tokens and new weapon parts can be sold for higher amounts of tokens and then be reduced over time. (Think like League of Legends champions starting out at 6300 IP and then slowly reducing but at a more reasonable rate). 

 

Read my second post on the first page and read BizarreFetalChimpanzee's.

 

What you think is a problem isn't. It's like you said yourself. You personally don't like loot style games.

You started of sounding like you understood the issue that it just isn't your style, but then started changing towards RNG being the total wrong way to go and "praise the token system." Again, RNG needs work in the game but there is nothing wrong with RNG or loot games. It's just not your thing.

 

Also, warframe has ALWAYS been about loot. Thinking that RNG wouldn't come to more advanced weaponry was kind of a stretch for you to have thought.

 

And I can go on for a full page about how your last paragraph would completely gut the game (especially buying tokens..), but the comment I directed you to gives you the general deal with token systems.

 

Basically, I'm sorry you don't like loot systems, but not liking looting in general makes it pretty damn hard for you to actually judge it fairly. Unless you can talk about something objectively, refrain from saying it's terrible.

 

A token system, as I explained it should be used for, would be great and give some leverage to players like you. But, also as I explained, it needs to have its limits. Warframe is a loot game and there are going to be things you will have to brace RNG for. There always has been. Improving these systems is something that need to be done, obviously. But again, the goal is to make it better, not get rid of it. It's impossible considering that's the type of game it is.

 

Making things more accepting of players who aren't used to these things isn't something to be ignored, but tossing out what the game is just for those people isn't going to cut it.

 

Also the old player, new player thing doesn't work considering there was probably far more RNG than there is now back in closed beta. (mods came with random stats ala Diablo back then if I'm not mistaken.)

 

So yeah. More cooperation on things that work and less "throw this out I don't like it!"

 

(there are no jabs at you here, though it sounds blunt. I'm just tired and don't feel like wording everything to sound peppy like I try to do)

Edited March 31, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[SolidSp33d]

The problem is less that there IS RNG, and more that everything of absolutely true importance is tied TO said RNG. With the mechanical mess of the game's combat system, without certain mods, you drag behind in a seemingly never ending hell of suck and failure until you praise RNGesus hard enough and he permits you to enter the glorious bounty that is "key-damage-mod-name-here". The weapon acquisition issues are a pain in the &#! for ultimately little reward, but they are at least forgivable and at most forgettable. Mod RNG is a work of goddamned evil if ever anyone saw any of it, and major aspects of it should be condemned to a hell the likes of which can't even be described for fear of releasing it upon the innocents of the world. Especially if they want to keep the damage system wallowing in the pool of crap they tossed it into shortly after its release (makes me fear what Melee 2.0 will actually portend for the future of the game)...

I agree about the issue with mods.

We need them to get anywhere, but we have to hunt for them which (now and days) can take far too long and leave new players stranded unless they get help.

It's kinda what I mentioned with the token system. That system is for getting some of the gear needed to progress, just not get all the best stuff.

For the "necessary" mods we really need to be able to acquire them with a guarantee of some sort...and actually DE did say that was coming with the quests so...I guess that's going to be taken care of. :3

Kinda anyway. I still feel like the mod pool is pretty stale and lacking of variety. It's just mods that you need and little leeway. I feel like we really need another type of "mods" that actually do their job better, in terms of being things that we collect, trade, and want to use to actually tailor weapon builds, traits, and effects. Not just stale "place straight damage on for a small amount of situations". Kinda like how many games have two different types of systems to effect weapon traits. That or just rework mods again.

Idk, it's hard to say, and I'm probably too tired to actually do a meaningful analysis right now anyway.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[SolidSp33d]

I've nothin' against supporting a game and its developers, but I'm just gonna have to say Hell No with regards to a paid subscription. 

 

Paid subscriptions is probably the best payment model for large scale MMOs (Wildstar, EVE, WoW)...which Warframe is not. (not even an MMO-lite just yet)

So yeah. No subs.

 

Also it would never work regarding DE's situation as an indie developer. It just really wouldn't roll.

[BaSiLB]

rng is good , rng is beautiful .. rng is everything 

[Sziklamester]

I don't have problem with rng if merciful but i would like to see more challenge and more social life in game or something which makes me a bit happy.

 

Edit: Tenno pubs needed.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Sziklamester

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

-snip-

Yeah. With MMOs, I expect some sort of paid subscription, which is the main reason I avoid most of those games, despite that being a solid payment model due to server costs alone (not to mention everything else involved). But for Warframe, I feel we have enough people spending money on prime access and the 5/10 dollar plat packs to keep this game well sustained for quite some time. 

[Karinia]

The online part is still worse so i think that it would be better a monthy fee system.

[SolidSp33d]

Yeah. With MMOs, I expect some sort of paid subscription, which is the main reason I avoid most of those games, despite that being a solid payment model due to server costs alone (not to mention everything else involved). But for Warframe, I feel we have enough people spending money on prime access and the 5/10 dollar plat packs to keep this game well sustained for quite some time. 

 

Agreed. The system we've got know is just right for Warframe.

 

...well ok the shop still needs a rework, but you know what I mean.

[Szilvia]

Would be really good a market refresh.

 

Edit: The actualy system is not well suited for this game but it's the only which grant to them enough income.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Szilvia

[SolidSp33d]

The online part is still worse so i think that it would be better a monthy fee system.

 

You mean to pay for dedicated servers?

eehhhh idk.

 

I feel that as DE continues to make the game better and more people join they will just naturally get the money they need to set up dedicated servers for gameplay. Of course, it will take a while.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Syndrella]

The monthly fee system is viable here too but the game still generate more money than monthly fee system. First the playerbase reduce if they add this option to this game because many peoples play free and want everything free. Second they created the rng here to generate more money and keep us pay if we can't reach anything. The dedicated servers in a coop maybe not the best idea but 5-10 people playing on one server is more fun and at least you give more for your money. Less lagg and your friends and mates can play on your servers. Not really need to buy enough if just loan those servers. 

 

The free to play model with peer to peer is just not the best and i mainly soling all map alone because the game unstable and have so much bug and crash. With alone i can do more than play randoms. So the free to play not bad if the pricing balanced and you not pay more for a model than a full game. My opinion is they should create a single player game for me. :3

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[Karinia]

Yeah. With MMOs, I expect some sort of paid subscription, which is the main reason I avoid most of those games, despite that being a solid payment model due to server costs alone (not to mention everything else involved). But for Warframe, I feel we have enough people spending money on prime access and the 5/10 dollar plat packs to keep this game well sustained for quite some time. 

 

You pay more than 5/10 dollar to this game so why you don't like the monthly sub fee when you pay far less for full content than pay more for just a gun?

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

You pay more than 5/10 dollar to this game so why you don't like the monthly sub fee when you pay far less for full content than pay more for just a gun?

I like the idea of "I pay what I want when I want," which is exactly what this game lets me do, rather than "Even if you're not playing much this month we're takin some money because you subscribed." If I feel like DE did a good job on an update, I'll throw a little bit of money in there. If not, I skip it (and I can think of good examples of times I've done both). Besides, I already have more plat than I'll need for quite some time because of founders and the first prime access. Beyond that, I don';t really put money into this game at all. Just because I payed a few times does not mean I support a subscription model. I don't want a subscription model at all. As for the last part of your statement, I don't pay for full weapons. A slot if needed and a potato if I really like the gun is the most I pay, but that's going into a whole other subject than what I was talking about with regards to a subscription system, so I'll stop myself there.

Edited March 31, 2014 by BizarreFetalChimpanzee

[Karinia]

You mean to pay for dedicated servers?

eehhhh idk.

 

I feel that as DE continues to make the game better and more people join they will just naturally get the money they need to set up dedicated servers for gameplay. Of course, it will take a while.

Yep.

 

Dedicated servers would be more viable to keep the interest of online gaming or they should optimalize more the netcode what actualy have. The problem is they say always it's beta but they get much more money than a monthly sub fee system and still the game almost unplayable because crashy/laggy. My internet is just good to play this but often can't play as host.

[CapnFusterCluck]

     Quite honestly, the WHOLE reason that I got so into Warframe was the LACK of RNG based weapons. I HATE HATE HATE RNG systems for weapons. Games like Borderlands(2), Dungeon Fighter Online, most MMORPGs that I've played, anything that relies on RNG drops for weapons is highly aggravating for me when it comes to stats. The reason I was so into Warframe was that I can actually build the weapons just by gathering some easy to find components. Fantastic.

    The void started out relatively fine. Yes, the Reaper Blade was atrociously rare at first, but that was fixed. This was before the huge dilution problem. It got a little more difficult with Mag Prime and those weapons. I completely skipped Ember Prime and Co. in favor of getting the Misa Prime Syandana. Burston was a little harder, but not completely atrocious. But this latest group of weapons have been unnecessarily difficult to obtain. I've ran at least 15 or so T2 Survival missions and gotten ONE Gauntlet. Most of these have been up to 40 minutes. I now have 14 Mag Prime Chassis blueprints. FOURTEEN. That is seven missions, often consecutive, in which I have gotten TWO Mag Prime Chassis within the same mission at 20 and 40 minutes. Not to mention any times that were failed. Not to mention any that I have traded away for some reason. This is ridiculous. It IS a problem. 

Maybe this problem plagues older players more than newer players, but a game needs to cater to ALL players, not just new AND not just old. But to everyone. Unfortunately, this triple to quadruple layer of RNG is questionably good and bad. RNG systems can be completely horrible. When you get the same thing over and over again, it becomes really depressing. It increases burnout rate and it decreases desire to play. The only reason I personally came back to this game is due to my financial and emotional investment in the game. And because I enjoy the gameplay more than I dislike the grind. In fact, if you were to completely eliminate the grind, the odds of me playing something else are slim to none in regular circumstances. I actually ENJOY playing this game and playing WITH the weapons, not FOR the weapons. I may be an outlier on that graph, but still...

A token system truly benefits everyone. Even the developers. It will increase the desire to play just for the sake of playing instead of burning people out on grinding a completely horrible system. They could even sell token packs for straight money or for platinum, either way is a benefit to them. Different tiers of keys can be run for different amounts of tokens and new weapon parts can be sold for higher amounts of tokens and then be reduced over time. (Think like League of Legends champions starting out at 6300 IP and then slowly reducing but at a more reasonable rate). 

Bro, Warframe will always be a loot-style game. That's just how it is. 

I like your post for these reasons:

 

A token system will not benefit anyone. You're basically asking for entitlement, and this game is definitely not made for that. If DE were to remove RNG, it's not really "Warframe" anymore. 

 

You went from "some sympathy to DE" to "absolutely hating DE for the $&*&*#(%& loot system". 

[Karinia]

That's a good point in free to play system you can avoid a possible bad work without fee. That suggestion work only if the prices are acceptable. The monthly pay system not bad at all because the devs have pressure to do better or they lose their player base so not mean they will drop crap for us. And that you pay only for slots and potatoes a normal mentality because really no have other stuff which deserve to pay more. Only the excal,volt,loki because their price contain slot and potato. Others just cosmetics. The full content idea not so bad also this not mean you get everything you want and that's all only just they can keep the servers up and update the game constantly. But a well scaled free to play game also could be good but for online experience is not really.

[Drakontis]

 

 

 

Also, warframe has ALWAYS been about loot. Thinking that RNG wouldn't come to more advanced weaponry was kind of a stretch for you to have thought.

 

And I can go on for a full page about how your last paragraph would completely gut the game (especially buying tokens..), but the comment I directed you to gives you the general deal with token systems.

 considering that's the type of game it is.

 

Making things more accepting of players who aren't used to these things isn't something to be ignored, but tossing out what the game is just for those people isn't going to cut it.

 

So yeah. More cooperation on things that work and less "throw this out I don't like it!"

I won't say RNG in and of itself is terrible. I like RNG when it's beneficial. I DON'T like RNG when it feels rigged. Like I said, I have 14 mostly unusable Mag Prime Chassis while hunting for one part. It may not be rigged, but it's definitely imbalanced. For somebody that wants to earn their parts, it seems unfair to me to be consistently getting the same piece over and over and over and over and over again. RNG has its benefits. Getting the pieces you want easily is awesome when it happens. It needs a rework somewhere. Token system? Maybe. Maybe not. I'd like it, but certainly not everyone does. Giving every part an EVEN chance of dropping would be phenomenal because right now, it's weighted. You cannot say that it isn't. 14 Mag Prime Chassis and ONE Ankyros Gauntlet? That shouldn't happen. I've heard at least one request for a system that checks what you have and gives a higher roll or whatnot towards something you DON'T have. There are certainly ways that make it easier to get your parts without using tokens, but tokens is likely the easiest way to code. 

Prime trading is a bandaid and leaves a sour taste in the mouth of people who want to earn their primes instead of buying them. And having to resort to it due to triple layer RNG is annoying. I want to earn my parts, but I don't want to work my fingers to the bones. A game should not feel like a full time job. 

Yes, I think the token system is beneficial. I certainly don't think it's the only option. EVERY system has pros and cons. I've expressed that multiple times in other threads, especially when it comes to damage. I didn't express it in that post, but I do know it. 

Bro, Warframe will always be a loot-style game. That's just how it is. 

I like your post for these reasons:

 

A token system will not benefit anyone. You're basically asking for entitlement, and this game is definitely not made for that. If DE were to remove RNG, it's not really "Warframe" anymore. 

 

You went from "some sympathy to DE" to "absolutely hating DE for the $&*&*#(%& loot system". 

 

Yes, Warframe has been about loot, mostly in regards to mods and resources. However, I don't see that as a "loot" system as much as I see it as a component system. Loot systems, to me, are more geared towards gathering random weapons with different stats (IE Sword A has +1 attack +2 strength and Sword B has +2 attack and +1 Strength). I don't like those systems as much, especially for standard MMO's where you can ONLY equip certain class gear. Borderlands gets a pass from me because I can use every bit of gear that drops. Games like DFO annoy the CRAP out of me because you get drops that you absolutely can. not. use. And I hate that. I like being able to use stuff. That's why I love Borderlands. I just don't like the loot system as much. 

Also, I don't hate DE for RNG. I don't hate DE at all. I love this game. I just don't quite like some of the systems in place and wish that they'd change a little. I don't need for there to be tokens. But I do request that I stop getting Mag Prime Chassis twice in a row on a consistent basis from T2 Survival... 

[SolidSp33d]

 

 

I won't say RNG in and of itself is terrible. I like RNG when it's beneficial. I DON'T like RNG when it feels rigged. Like I said, I have 14 mostly unusable Mag Prime Chassis while hunting for one part. It may not be rigged, but it's definitely imbalanced. For somebody that wants to earn their parts, it seems unfair to me to be consistently getting the same piece over and over and over and over and over again. RNG has its benefits. Getting the pieces you want easily is awesome when it happens. It needs a rework somewhere. Token system? Maybe. Maybe not. I'd like it, but certainly not everyone does. Giving every part an EVEN chance of dropping would be phenomenal because right now, it's weighted. You cannot say that it isn't. 14 Mag Prime Chassis and ONE Ankyros Gauntlet? That shouldn't happen. I've heard at least one request for a system that checks what you have and gives a higher roll or whatnot towards something you DON'T have. There are certainly ways that make it easier to get your parts without using tokens, but tokens is likely the easiest way to code. 

Prime trading is a bandaid and leaves a sour taste in the mouth of people who want to earn their primes instead of buying them. And having to resort to it due to triple layer RNG is annoying. I want to earn my parts, but I don't want to work my fingers to the bones. A game should not feel like a full time job. 

Yes, I think the token system is beneficial. I certainly don't think it's the only option. EVERY system has pros and cons. I've expressed that multiple times in other threads, especially when it comes to damage. I didn't express it in that post, but I do know it. 

 

Yes, Warframe has been about loot, mostly in regards to mods and resources. However, I don't see that as a "loot" system as much as I see it as a component system. Loot systems, to me, are more geared towards gathering random weapons with different stats (IE Sword A has +1 attack +2 strength and Sword B has +2 attack and +1 Strength). I don't like those systems as much, especially for standard MMO's where you can ONLY equip certain class gear. Borderlands gets a pass from me because I can use every bit of gear that drops. Games like DFO annoy the CRAP out of me because you get drops that you absolutely can. not. use. And I hate that. I like being able to use stuff. That's why I love Borderlands. I just don't like the loot system as much. 

Also, I don't hate DE for RNG. I don't hate DE at all. I love this game. I just don't quite like some of the systems in place and wish that they'd change a little. I don't need for there to be tokens. But I do request that I stop getting Mag Prime Chassis twice in a row on a consistent basis from T2 Survival... 

 

 

Getting the same thing over and over doesn't mean the system is broken lol.

Again this is the MMO experienced players versus the TPS/FPS focused.

 

No, loot systems do not mean you have to get a piece of equipment with totally random gear. That isn't the case for many a large MMO. There is just a ton of variety in what you can get. Junk or not.

 

Getting the same thing means, simply what you want is harder to get and you have to work for it. Aka it has a lower % chance to attain. Again, we get that you don't like these systems, but that doesn't mean you're beyond understanding the purpose of them and how it works. It's what gives the piece of gear you're going after value and it's what makes that one item you have not has valuable. It's what separates the person willing to farm and willing to buy. It's what makes players jump for joy all the more when they get what they want and be able to brag about it.

 

Again, dude. You're saying "This is terrible, this should never happen" and then "I just don't like loot systems."

Remember what I said about trying to demote what you just don't like?

[neKroMancer]

I have to say that both systems, RNG and Token, can coexist in the same game. One system fill another's drawback.

One game that was already mentioned, Borderlands2, used both system to keep the player happy. If you play one of BL2's DLC then you will surely notice both systems at work. The boss dropped loot piñata once defeated and also dropped a few tokens which could be used at vending machine to get certain legendary weapon.

Another system that can be used in tandem with RNG is adding more randomized events into the game which generate above average loot. I recently bought Diablo3 (20usd discount is too hard to resist) and I found that the game is literally give you a lot of chance to get better quality items through random events (which occur frequent enough to keep the player from getting bored). Adventure mode also introduced token (bounty) which can be used to enter Nephalim rift (Void?) to four stronger monsters and get better loot.

I believe that DE must find balance between using RNG to fuel our subconscious gambler while keeping our sense of accomplishment fulfilled through token system.

- adding more randomized event in the general missions thus allowing players to gain higher quality mods. However given the static stat of the mod system, higher quality mods probably mean getting higher rank serration instead of unrank one.

- adding void token or a way to salvage unwanted prime parts and gamble/turn them into randomized prime component. Out right buying certain parts with large amount of void token is also an option.

I think we're beating this dead horse to pulp with Fragor here.

[Drakontis]

Getting the same thing over and over doesn't mean the system is broken lol.

If you ask me, getting the same thing over and over DOES mean the system is broken. That's not random. It's weighted. A loaded die still has a chance to land on other sides. But if one thing drops over and over, then it means that it's weighted too much to that side. Waaaay to much. And maybe I'm an outlier, but I'm willing to bet that I'm not.

There've been repeated observations of things dropping at a very reduced rate compared to others. It's artificial rarity. And while understandable, in my opinion, it's annoying. I'm not a fan of weighted RNG. I suppose I have mixed feelings about Warframe's "loot" (component) system. I like being able to just craft things, as I said before. I've got mixed feelings about void drops. Is it fantastic when it works evenly? Certainly. Is it a major annoyance when the same thing drops without fail? Heck yeah. 

I don't see a need for it except to keep people doing the exact same thing over and over. That gets boring. I don't see a need for the same THING to drop over and over. Again. Boring. It starts to get to be where the motivation dies because you know what you're going to get and it's never going to be what you want. It's like if you worked for a job and instead of getting paid in cash, you got paid in coupons that you can't even use.