Melee 2.0 And Stances: What It Should Have Been

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

You are obviously a warframe company shill..

melee2.0 is code for some other problem.

steal our time and money used getting our melee weapons as we liked them with melee2.0 out of the blue with a system that is not even ready to be played much less an improvement.

Skyrim let you cut left or right or down as you wished but not melee2.0. False complexity to cover some issue us gamers are unaware of?..hmmm?

maybe we are beating the game to easily? Hmmm?

My jat kittag was built by my efforts not platinum and to ruin the one weapon i used is unforgivable.

i loved the "i dont want to hear complaints" comment..haha.

warframe is being run by corporate not the gamers who first built it.

fix melee2.0 by removing it.

want to advance melee? How about making a real system instead of covering over an internal business related problem with stealing from customers?

to force us to grind levels to get back what was taken is to cover the fact money has taken over warframe and i offer the really badly made "hydroid" as proof.

When gamers are allowed to go back to running warframe maybe these obvious flaws and money grabs will cease.

until then all players should consider thier money and time as nothing but food for sony and other corporates that ruined what was a fun game.(while i wait for destiny to be released that is.)

Now i will spend the 100 bucks or so i would have spent on warframe in the next few months on something else and spend my freetime informing my fellow gamers of the truth.

as for the 100bucks plus i spent already i will credit warframe 10cents for every post i make about the ruined company and flawed product....buckle up.... it melee3.0

nobody was allowed to make more levels and enemies instead we got forced to

Edited May 26, 2014 by (PS4)GrandmaKilledU

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

Oh and the stupid "solar rail" project is another ploy to cover lack of real investment on the gamegrid. Make us waste time and money so lazy greedy folk get rich while the game dies off.....oh and we know you all ripped off destiny as the concept so we should have known stealing is okay the the warframe company..

did i mention destiny is coming? Make hay while the sun shines....

oh did i just tell the real secret...?...

warframe servers will be dead shortly after destiny hits PS4

[DiabolusUrsus]

You are obviously a warframe company shill..

melee2.0 is code for some other problem.

steal our time and money used getting our melee weapons as we liked them with melee2.0 out of the blue with a system that is not even ready to be played much less an improvement.

Skyrim let you cut left or right or down as you wished but not melee2.0. False complexity to cover some issue us gamers are unaware of?..hmmm?

maybe we are beating the game to easily? Hmmm?

My jat kittag was built by my efforts not platinum and to ruin the one weapon i used is unforgivable.

i loved the "i dont want to hear complaints" comment..haha.

warframe is being run by corporate not the gamers who first built it.

fix melee2.0 by removing it.

want to advance melee? How about making a real system instead of covering over an internal business related problem with stealing from customers?

to force us to grind levels to get back what was taken is to cover the fact money has taken over warframe and i offer the really badly made "hydroid" as proof.

When gamers are allowed to go back to running warframe maybe these obvious flaws and money grabs will cease.

until then all players should consider thier money and time as nothing but food for sony and other corporates that ruined what was a fun game.(while i wait for destiny to be released that is.)

Now i will spend the 100 bucks or so i would have spent on warframe in the next few months on something else and spend my freetime informing my fellow gamers of the truth.

as for the 100bucks plus i spent already i will credit warframe 10cents for every post i make about the ruined company and flawed product....buckle up.... it melee3.0

nobody was allowed to make more levels and enemies instead we got forced to

 

1. Yes, I'm definitely on DE's payroll. I make hundreds of dollars an hour working at home! Try this one neat trick to cut down on body fat permanently! The one secret that healthcare providers DON'T want you to know!

 

2. I hardly think the better part of a year's worth of anticipation and status updates constitutes "out of the blue." We had plenty of advance warning, and most of us were rather eager to get our hands on it. 

 

3. False. Skyrim had a looping-set of irrelevant swing animations that simply periodically activated a single hitbox, except for the two-handed perk that expanded it to a multi-target attack. Otherwise you could swing your sword through three people and only hit the one that is supposed to be your ally. Skyrim was amazing for many reasons, but its combat system was not one of them. 

 

4. People are perfectly welcome to criticize Melee 2.0 here. If you were capable of understanding what I had written, you'd notice that a fair amount of what I have to say is negative. What I don't want to hear is the sort of drivel you're spewing now, where you fail to actually identify a problem, make baseless conspiratorial accusations, and advocate simply scrapping existing efforts rather than improving on them. Reminds me a lot of that whole "Roll Back Damage 2.0" thread back in the day.

 

5. Since when has Warframe not been a business endeavor? Yes, the devs set out to make a game. Yes, games are often passionately crafted artistic expressions. Whether you want to admit it or not, though, most games are also created for the purpose of making money. Could DE have implemented stance mods better? Yes, absolutely. However, that's part of a different discussion entirely, and I have no interest in discussing it further here. Stop trying to derail the thread.

 

6. Go play Destiny, then. Nobody here is going to miss you. Trolling attempts work better when they aren't immediately obvious, though I will thank you for bumping my efforts. 

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

Hmmm, i am willing to discuss putting my jat kittag back together and even willing to offer constructive suggestions on fixing melee2.0. And i grasp your post in its entirety.

skyrim was a poor melee model so i was being sarcastic.

hydroid warframe is a poorly executed model but so are several other frames.

i will listen if you would be so kind as to give even the most basic reason for ruining the weapon i built a dojo to make..(pride in making factors highly to me)as a ps4 based player melee2.0 WAS out of the blue... but i still have no idea how it is considered better or did i mis-read all those posts?

check my account and you will see i am a pissed off player not some shill or troll.

and its not conspiracy to see developers race ahead to push "dark sectors" while melee2.0 garners more bad commentary.

that said there is little proof melee2.0 is fixable but you make the big bucks "at home" so i am all ears.

Edited May 26, 2014 by (PS4)GrandmaKilledU

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

I also mention destiny only because it will have a similar format and is highly anticipated. My comment centers on where the next wave of gamers will flock to and thats all.i dont even really like the gameplay trailers i have seen...

and i do feel warframe developers stole my money and time over a flaw they dont seem to care about fixing

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

Oh, and i already am tearing apart my dojo,(will keep it so the motd i made stays up) also selling all my inventory and mods down to the basics so when my wife plays (she agrees with me but is not mad enuff to quit but she didnt build what was stolen did she?) The message remains..

but change me mind if you are really trying to fix melee2.0!

Give me back what was taken and i will stop posting and go back to playing..

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

Oh and making money by making a game is a far cry from extracting profits by forcing developers to craft more badly made add ons and silly solar rails.

[Morveyn]

This guy up here is making my eyes bleed.

 

DU, I personally appreciate the thought you've put into this thread. Plenty of us have had thoughts of dissapointment in regards to the execution of M2.0, though you managed a well thought-out series of critiques and suggestions on the issue, many of which I'd hope to see implemented.

 

One thought I'd care to add, from the viewpoint of someone who played too much SoulCalibur in the day, would be implementing sets of consise combos tied to directional movement, perhaps more than one direction per combo, each one serving a unique purpose. More animation work, yes, but differentiating between the standard chopping, a rapid combo-builder, a stunning strike, and a home run swing would help provide combos with a level of definition and signature play that they lack.

 

On a similar SoulCalibur-fueled point, I was personally hoping the nikana would play a bit more Iaido-esuqe, a la Patrokolos. Fast strikes that returned the blade to the scabbard inbetween single strikes or short 3-hit chains at most.

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

So before your eyes bleed out i want to know why its fine to ruin someones effort and wipe away what was made with time and effort as well as real world money. The jat kittag is ruined period dot the end... so the money and time is stolen. Funny how all the posters here are fine with being stolen from..

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

And i am a silver disciple 8th rank with 320hours of ps4 gameplay....just so ya know

[Darkmoone1]

And i am a silver disciple 8th rank with 320hours of ps4 gameplay....just so ya know

Having alot of hours put into the game doesn't give you more of a right to litter posts on what is a decent topic with thoughtful feedback in it. 

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

Darkmoon look to DE for the answer as i never said a peep or word until they broke the game and stole my stuff. They are running on borrowed time for a healthy company does not leave such issues so badly in disarray. The obvious efforts are to force dark sectors to lure what few players are left until it is plain that warframe is over..

to state ones intent so loudly yet offer no action is soo informative.

i was happy whirling my jet powered hammer until they ruined it..i come here and complain and find most here are pushing the company talking points or when absent of them attack a poster who has a serious greivance...hmmmm

[DiabolusUrsus]

This guy up here is making my eyes bleed.

 

DU, I personally appreciate the thought you've put into this thread. Plenty of us have had thoughts of dissapointment in regards to the execution of M2.0, though you managed a well thought-out series of critiques and suggestions on the issue, many of which I'd hope to see implemented.

 

One thought I'd care to add, from the viewpoint of someone who played too much SoulCalibur in the day, would be implementing sets of consise combos tied to directional movement, perhaps more than one direction per combo, each one serving a unique purpose. More animation work, yes, but differentiating between the standard chopping, a rapid combo-builder, a stunning strike, and a home run swing would help provide combos with a level of definition and signature play that they lack.

 

On a similar SoulCalibur-fueled point, I was personally hoping the nikana would play a bit more Iaido-esuqe, a la Patrokolos. Fast strikes that returned the blade to the scabbard inbetween single strikes or short 3-hit chains at most.

 

I totally feel you when you talk about Soul Calibur-inspired combo strings. I really only played SC4, but I appreciated that nearly every combo felt like it had a specific purpose, and they all meshed together fairly well. That said, correct me if I'm wrong but Soul Calibur seems to play much closer to a 2-D fighting game, and features much smaller arenas. I know that there are three dimensional aspects to player movement and attack inputs, but the camera usually centers in to a two-dimensional plane of advance/retreat. What I'm trying to get at here is that I think Soul Calibur can get away with more complicated combo-strings (especially directional inputs) because it is much more focused on 1 v 1 fighting. Unless the directional inputs were executed much more smoothly and intuitively, I can only see combos with forward, backwards, left, and right mixed into their executions hampering gameplay. I'm not going to discount the possibility of that sort of combo system being completely jaw-droppingly awesome if done well, but I doubt that it would be done well. 

 

As for your thoughts on the Nikana... I would appreciate an iai-style implemented as a stance. If it were up to me, Tranquil Cleave would be closer to what Decisive Judgment is right now, with smoothly flowing chopping combos, and Decisive Judgment would be an Iai-based stance, as the name of the mod lends itself to sharp and abrupt strikes reminiscent of iai techniques. I specify "as a stance" because I don't want to lose the possibility of more conventional attacks as well. 

 

So before your eyes bleed out i want to know why its fine to ruin someones effort and wipe away what was made with time and effort as well as real world money. The jat kittag is ruined period dot the end... so the money and time is stolen. Funny how all the posters here are fine with being stolen from..

 

You. Have. Not. Been. Stolen. From. I could write out an extensive and comprehensive explanation of how and why you are as wrong as you are, but I doubt you would actually consider what I have to say, so I'm not going to waste my time. Instead, I will advise you to consult an attorney about which actions you can take to retrieve your justly-deserved compensation from DE for the grievous crimes they have committed against your financial standing by modifying *your* precious Jat Kittag. Perhaps then you will understand why I can't help but laugh at the ridiculous foundations of your complaint. Alternatively, save yourself the consultation fees and go read the EULA you were required to accept in order to play the game. 

Friendly advice: Go find a copy of Crushing Ruin. It will bring back your lovely jet-powered spin attack. 

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

DU ALL I WANT IS A GOOD EXPLAINATION.. I was angry and still am but i complain because I liked warframe a lot and played it a lot and got my wife to play it and spent real money paying you guys to keep it running..

 

So yes i may have started off strongly and made some biting comments but all i really want is my happy whirling hammer i spent so much time making..

 

in leiu of that I will listen with all my attention and fairness if you would please inform me of what i am missing.

 

Really, i mean it.

 

 

p.s I have crushing ruin and it does not work. i searched all the card info some time ago in just such an effort to restore my jat kittag and only posted here today because nothing works ( and i needed to let you all know) in my special way of course

Edited May 27, 2014 by (PS4)GrandmaKilledU

[DiabolusUrsus]

DU ALL I WANT IS A GOOD EXPLAINATION.. I was angry and still am but i complain because I liked warframe a lot and played it a lot and got my wife to play it and spent real money paying you guys to keep it running..

 

So yes i may have started off strongly and made some biting comments but all i really want is my happy whirling hammer i spent so much time making..

 

in leiu of that I will listen with all my attention and fairness if you would please inform me of what i am missing.

 

Really, i mean it.

 

Wait, wait, wait... let me get this straight. You actually think that I am on DE's payroll?! You actually missed the fact that I used a bunch of attention hooks from generic spam e-mails to respond to your accusation of my being a shill?

 

You want an explanation? What a coincidence; so do I. Please explain to me why you think I'm obligated to explain to you that you do not actually own Warframe content. Well, if you're actually willing to listen, I don't see much harm in trying to do what I can to help you.

 

3.    Copyrights, Trademarks and Proprietary Rights

 

b.     All rights and title in and to the Software, the Game, the Service, the Site, your Account and all content included therein (including, without limitation, Accounts, computer code, titles, objects, artifacts, characters, character names, locations, location names, stories, storylines, dialogue, catch phrases, artwork, graphics, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual works, character likenesses, and methods of operation) are owned by Digital Extremes or its licensors. The Software may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.  The Software and the Game and all content therein are protected by Canada and the United States and other international intellectual property laws. Digital Extremes and its licensors reserve all rights in connection with the Software and the Game, including, without limitation, the exclusive right to create derivative works there from, and you agree that you will not create any work of authorship based on the Game except as expressly permitted by Digital Extremes. You acknowledge and agree that you have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game. You further acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in your Account, and you acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the Account are and shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Digital Extremes.

 

This is taken from the Warframe EULA. If you find it a bit confusing, let me simplify it a bit for you. You don't own anything that is part of Warframe. You don't even own your account or username. Any money you pay into the game is not purchasing game content for you to "own," it is paying money for the privilege of accessing that content sooner. It even expressly states that you have no ownership or property interest in your account, which means that you literally cannot sue them for access to said account, even if you had spent in excess of one-million dollars on it. It's not actually yours. 

 

You may be inclined to be rather upset with DE for this sort of legal maneuvering, but I guarantee you that you will not find any other free-to-play micro-transaction model game without some sort of similar or equivalent specification. That's just how things work with these types of games. They are not evil or malicious for doing this. They are protecting themselves. In fact, you'll be hard-pressed to find another developer/publisher group that is as lenient and generous as they are. There are others out there, of course, but not many. 

 

Now that that's out of the way, I hope you'll do me the favor of listening to exactly why I am actually upset with you.

 

I am not a Warframe dev. I am not being paid by DE to provide feedback, or moral support on the forums. Outside of the same sort of influence any other forum-goer can have on the development of the game, I don't have any more power over the changes that are made to the game than you do. Keeping that in mind, it should be fairly a fairly obvious and logical deduction that I am not privy to the thought processes of the dev team as they actually make said changes. I cannot possibly explain to you why I took your hammer away and why I won't give it back, because I didn't take it away, and I would give it back if I could. I don't have anything against you, personally.

Except... I started a discussion with the intent of improving Warframe and addressing the concerns of like-minded players, while explicitly specifying that I did not want to argue about the actual merit of Melee 2.0, or be asked to babysit players who feel entitled to something simply because they've sunk a few coins into the game. I wanted to provide feedback, and stick to addressing more fundamental issues with the system that were (from what I could tell) being overlooked while they were hidden behind the more immediately reparable "OMG WE WANT STANCES NAO I BOUGHT THIS SWORD WITH PLAT WTF." 

Somehow, you translated my desire to provide helpful and insightful feedback into me attempting to disseminate propaganda for the DE-Dictatorship of Evil Gaming Fascism. Or the Illuminati. Who knows? You can try to make excuses all you want, but "shill" is not a label I have ever seen used with a positive connotation, ever, period. You rudely implied that DE was the sort of company that would make use of unsavory marketing techniques, and that I was perfectly content to act as an accomplice for the right amount of money. I may be in the wrong here, but I find that a little insulting. 

[(PSN)GrandmaKilledU]

DU.. i accept i may have hijacked your thread but it was  not intentionally.. I also accept being called a shill is not the best way to make freinds and influence folks I have no clue who you< or anyone else is on this forum but once activated i tend to go until done or wife needs the laptop, so who you were was not as important as getting out the "commentary" i was forced by DE to make on the topic of melee2.0

Also I am totally aware of EULA legal and dont care. this is about the company i am buying product from ( no matter the legal stance--do they have a mod card for that?)

Yes i did think you were taking up too much for DE in face of a major issue that is not being handled which needed clarification earlier than it came..fyi.. ( a simple "hey i am not a dev" may have helped)

And despite any EULA,, my personal expectations is of a company that is good to do business with not a company who has lost its mission or willing to ignore customer complaints.

I hear balance is the current watchword yet balance for whom? legally removing something is still removal so without "crushing ruin" working as you said it can(maybe ps4 issue?) there was a removal of product without a good alternate and that is poor business 101.

 

So feel free to go hijack my thread (jat kittag vote!) and we can call it even.. ( i would offer a PvP match so you could get satisfaction beating my warframe up but DE has made that immpossible as i have no other weapons i am good at)

and thank you for the reply.

So I apologize if you felt your thread was impacted and I actually apreciate the exchange of ideas despite how past posts may seem to your eyes.

So have a good laugh that i thought you were with DE and forgive the transgression of your thread

[DiabolusUrsus]

DU.. i accept i may have hijacked your thread but it was  not intentionally.. I also accept being called a shill is not the best way to make freinds and influence folks I have no clue who you< or anyone else is on this forum but once activated i tend to go until done or wife needs the laptop, so who you were was not as important as getting out the "commentary" i was forced by DE to make on the topic of melee2.0

Also I am totally aware of EULA legal and dont care. this is about the company i am buying product from ( no matter the legal stance--do they have a mod card for that?)

Yes i did think you were taking up too much for DE in face of a major issue that is not being handled which needed clarification earlier than it came..fyi.. ( a simple "hey i am not a dev" may have helped)

And despite any EULA,, my personal expectations is of a company that is good to do business with not a company who has lost its mission or willing to ignore customer complaints.

I hear balance is the current watchword yet balance for whom? legally removing something is still removal so without "crushing ruin" working as you said it can(maybe ps4 issue?) there was a removal of product without a good alternate and that is poor business 101.

 

So feel free to go hijack my thread (jat kittag vote!) and we can call it even.. ( i would offer a PvP match so you could get satisfaction beating my warframe up but DE has made that immpossible as i have no other weapons i am good at)

and thank you for the reply.

So I apologize if you felt your thread was impacted and I actually apreciate the exchange of ideas despite how past posts may seem to your eyes.

So have a good laugh that i thought you were with DE and forgive the transgression of your thread

I... I just am not quite sure of how to respond to this.

 

if you don't understand why the EULA is particularly relevant to this conversation, I really cannot help you. If Crushing Ruin really isn't functioning on the PS4, you should seriously consider submitting a bug report or making a thread about it. I don't play on PS4, so I have no way of confirming that for myself. You really need to understand that this game is still in development, though, and that things are subject to change. I'm sorry that the Jat Kittag got changed in a way that completely ruined the game for you. Perhaps try suggesting that it be given a unique "Charge attack" function similar to the Glaive/Kestrel. 

 

Lastly, I am not nearly upset or vindictive enough to want to vent my frustrations or exact revenge on you. I don't need to beat you up in PVP, and I have absolutely no reason to intentionally hijack your threads. I'm not angry with you, just irritated. There are plenty of other threads full of complaints on the forums, and I was mostly saddened that random and misguided complaining ultimately found its way into a thread that was otherwise going strong. No hard feelings. 

[Morveyn]

Christ, that guy's literally giving me a migrane from my attempts to read his posts.

 

I hear you on your points regarding the differences between SC and Warframe, and you're quite right. My thoughts were bringing a more technical aspect into melee combat, however, and using directionals seems like the cleanest way to achieve that. Option two would be having a second melee button, although I don't particularly forsee that happening. So, single-button it is.

 

There's definite difference between the linearity of a 2.5D fighter and a 3D action game, but directionals, in my opinion, serve as more reliable trigger for combos and attacks than mashing and timing, particularly when the timing window becomes more narrow as you increase a weapon's speed. Only makes an unreliable system more unreliable. There's already some combos that draw from forward and backwards as a combo trigger, but those are only read at some point in the middle of the basic chain. Having unique attacks from the very first swing depending on your directional movement could offer more distiction from each move, or maybe even just making attacking during free movement seem more natural. Ideally, combos could be executed without needing to bash through one or  two moves from the basic combo set, certainly making things less dull.

 

I agree wholeheartedly on the Nikana stances, though. Unfortunately, having my main rig out for repairs means I haven't had a chance to find and use Decisive Judgement as of yet, and I've only seen it in person once. Though it's fairly clear there's not a huge difference between the two stances at the moment.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Morveyn

[DiabolusUrsus]

Christ, that guy's literally giving me a migrane from my attempts to read his posts.

 

I hear you on your points regarding the differences between SC and Warframe, and you're quite right. My thoughts were bringing a more technical aspect into melee combat, however, and using directionals seems like the cleanest way to achieve that. Option two would be having a second melee button, although I don't particularly forsee that happening. So, single-button it is.

 

There's definite difference between the linearity of a 2.5D fighter and a 3D action game, but directionals, in my opinion, serve as more reliable trigger for combos and attacks than mashing and timing, particularly when the timing window becomes more narrow as you increase a weapon's speed. Only makes an unreliable system more unreliable. There's already some combos that draw from forward and backwards as a combo trigger, but those are only read at some point in the middle of the basic chain. Having unique attacks from the very first swing depending on your directional movement could offer more distiction from each move, or maybe even just making attacking during free movement seem more natural. Ideally, combos could be executed without needing to bash through one or  two moves from the basic combo set, certainly making things less dull.

 

I agree wholeheartedly on the Nikana stances, though. Unfortunately, having my main rig out for repairs means I haven't had a chance to find and use Decisive Judgement as of yet, and I've only seen it in person once. Though it's fairly clear there's not a huge difference between the two stances at the moment.

 

Okay. I hadn't quite thought of it that way before, but I can definitely agree with you on the clunkiness of the pause/hold input system, especially factoring in different melee speeds screwing with muscle-memory timing. Still, I think that there is room for improvement on the input system; if they got rid of input lagging/logging and adjusted the grace times for holds and pauses, I think that the system would execute a lot more smoothly and reasonably. At the same time, I can see a great deal of merit in introducing some "directional" combos, provided they aren't the sort of up/down/attack/left/attack/attack strings you see from some of the more complex SC combos. The existing directional combos are also fairly forgiving in that  you don't actually have to input the direction at the right time. You can execute a forward combo by moving forward while attacking. My favorite ones to execute, though, are the block combos. (Hold Block, and just attack.) I may be alone here, but I'm not looking for some sort of comprehensive and in-depth combo execution system. Seriously, I'd go play a fighting game if I was looking for that. I'd really like to see more of what I think you're describing now, which is contextual attacks based on movement that the player can combine in any way they like. 

[Morveyn]

I think you're on the same page as me, frankly. Lessening the reliance on pauses in combos is one point I very strongly want to see changed. Trying to use the hesitation combo with Clashing Forest on an Amphis nearly gave me a migrane, much as I love the weapon. The thing is so damn fast even without fury that you have to apply a pause lasting exactly half a second or so, or you just get the usual spinmove on the stock combo. The margin for error is just infuriating when you're trying to focus on the enemies around you.

 

No doubt going too far towards a technical fighter won't go well, but direction-contextual attacks and more defined combos through directionals, as well as the block button as you mentioned, is something that I very much want to see happen. I particularly want to see more interesting attacks on heavy-class weapons rather than just smashy smashy.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Morveyn