Health And Hp Needs Balancing After The Last Hotfix

[Aerensiniac]

Playerbase do not consist purely of experienced player. The game needs to be a bit newbies friendly and give them survivability to see what the game has to offer. Throwing them into a snake pit will surely drive them away.

That is actually something i can feel and to a certain extent agree with.

That being said, in my opinion currently we are already way over the "bit newbie friendly" part.

The previous unbuffed system ensured team work to a certain point cause tactically proceeding was a must. Now we are just breezing through everything and nobody seems to give a duck.

The little teamwork that was there before is now completely goan. 4 people just ride out there like the frikin horsemen and life ceases to exist while they drink tea and casually chat.

Nobody has to agree with my opinion, but less skilled players can and by all means should get improve, otherwise you will not scare the "less skilled" and "newbies" away, but everyone else and then its game over.

So when you say that the playerbase does not consist purely of experienced players, then i say that it does not consist purely of unexperienced players either. The first can improve, but that latter can only get worse and lose all and any interest in the game. Also: I do not think that it needs a huge amount of skill, understanding and comprehensive power to not stand in the middle of crossfires, poisons, fires, rockets, grenades, etc. They are quite visual.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[f3llyn]

So you offer a complaint but what's your solution? I personally like that we now have a choice if we want to kit shield or hp mods.

No. I will not play solo, because that's not what I play the game for. SP is boring as S#&$, I've done it twice and it was agonizingly long and spirit-crushingly boring. I already don't use maxframes, I already don't use vitality/redirection anymore. Frankly, yes, I hardly get hit, ever (and why would I? Some weapons are so broken, mobs don't even get into firing range). Are you going to suggest I go full melee to have a challenge next? How about I try to not kill any of the mobs in the level to have a challenge? Oh wait, I already did that and it barely tickled.

And lol at that validation-talk. Go away you @(*()$ clown.

Sounds like your complaint is with strong weapons and not frames.

Edited April 3, 2013 by f3llyn

[__Kanade__]

I like that my shields and hp are back to the way they were before U.7, been able to solo Ceres much better, though I will still have problems when dealing with too many enemies grouped in one area and more then 2 heavies at a time.

[Dancingfirefly]

I read a nice suggestion on the Steam forum which involved letting newbies start with the shield and health boosting mods. Then they won't have to worry about the RNG totally screwing them out of doing end game content with decent health/shields, and if they get a second mod they can use it to boost the 'newbie' mod or save it for a new frame.

If passive boosts are removed (again), I wouldn't mind seeing this change. The game remains challenging for the 'pros' while being a bit more 'newbie friendly' since newbies don't have to farm 50+ hours just to get a survivability mod. Just use fusion cores to boost the ones they already have.

I seriously got the shield boosting mod 50 hours in, and this was after they made the survivability change. I was like. . Gee, thanks game.

Edit: I guess A) letting newbies start with the mods, and B) giving current players a free copy of each mod, to make up for those who didn't start with one.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Dancingfirefly

[Aure7]

so much discussion here, I just want to add up to the idea that it becomes too easy, I can go to any planet and any mission and I won't have any problems beating it (20lvl warframe), where's the feel of being a weakling like in a true level based online game? Maybe simply make the hp and shield increase MUCH lower (like up to 175 upon lvl 30) on all non tank classes and make the survivability mods act as common ones. (And i mean common, not just a word typed there to make it a cheap thing to sell)

[Aerensiniac]

I read a nice suggestion on the Steam forum which involved letting newbies start with the shield and health boosting mods. Then they won't have to worry about the RNG totally screwing them out of doing end game content with decent health/shields, and if they get a second mod they can use it to boost the 'newbie' mod or save it for a new frame.

If passive boosts are removed (again), I wouldn't mind seeing this change. The game remains challenging for the 'pros' while being a bit more 'newbie friendly' since newbies don't have to farm 50+ hours just to get a survivability mod. Just use fusion cores to boost the ones they already have.

I seriously got the shield boosting mod 50 hours in, and this was after they made the survivability change. I was like. . Gee, thanks game.

Edit: I guess A) letting newbies start with the mods, and B) giving current players a free copy of each mod, to make up for those who didn't start with one.

I +1 this

It would make a lot more sense to give newbies a 5-10 day fully upgraded shield mod, than to screw up the entire mod system just because there are new players who dont know how to handle it.

I like that my shields and hp are back to the way they were before U.7, been able to solo Ceres much better, though I will still have problems when dealing with too many enemies grouped in one area and more then 2 heavies at a time.

And i dont think that this is a positive thing.

When players start to solo up entire mid/above mid level range missions head on, then the game is simply out of balance.

It would be one thing to beat a map solo in stealth.

Its a different thing when you can sweep an entire map alone due to OP passives.

If you can kill the entire map alone, what do you think how much more difficult will it get with 4 players? -75% ?

Edited April 3, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[f3llyn]

I read a nice suggestion on the Steam forum which involved letting newbies start with the shield and health boosting mods. Then they won't have to worry about the RNG totally screwing them out of doing end game content with decent health/shields, and if they get a second mod they can use it to boost the 'newbie' mod or save it for a new frame.

If passive boosts are removed (again), I wouldn't mind seeing this change. The game remains challenging for the 'pros' while being a bit more 'newbie friendly' since newbies don't have to farm 50+ hours just to get a survivability mod. Just use fusion cores to boost the ones they already have.

I seriously got the shield boosting mod 50 hours in, and this was after they made the survivability change. I was like. . Gee, thanks game.

Edit: I guess A) letting newbies start with the mods, and B) giving current players a free copy of each mod, to make up for those who didn't start with one.

That just enforces the idea that those particular mods are pretty much always required. The passives were meant to promote mod diversity.

[Aerensiniac]

That just enforces the idea that those particular mods are pretty much always required. The passives were meant to promote mod diversity.

Please elaborate how these modifications promote diversity.

All it did was making survival cards useless, and no: not optional. Useless

It would be optional if you could actually tank in this game, but that would require a healer class since other than shields, nothing regenerates, so you cant just stand in front of bosses to tank.

The only thing the current bonuses promote are less skilled players. There is no other point to them unless you wish to tell us that one players breezing through missions alone is the desired effect we were looking towards for.

[Dancingfirefly]

That just enforces the idea that those particular mods are pretty much always required. The passives were meant to promote mod diversity.

This is true. The devs could just adjust both the mods and passive progression, so that they both contribute in reasonable but not overbearing fashions. Maybe drop the health/shield mods down to 20% per rank, and cut passive progression by half as well? That'd cut down quite a bit on the pool of resources available to players.

And admittedly, I took full advantage of this boost to solo up a full Saryn frame. It'll be in construction as soon as I get 25k credits ^^; But I do think the game has gotten a lot easier as a result, even as a 'squishier' frame. I honestly rarely use my skills tactically now, which is kind of bad as a Loki was intended to use their abilities strategically.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Dancingfirefly

[MJ12]

Please elaborate how these modifications promote diversity.

All it did was making survival cards useless, and no: not optional. Useless

It would be optional if you could actually tank in this game, but that would require a healer class since other than shields, nothing regenerates, so you cant just stand in front of bosses to tank.

The only thing the current bonuses promote are less skilled players. There is no other point to them unless you wish to tell us that one players breezing through missions alone is the desired effect we were looking towards for.

Um what? "Because you no longer have to use them they're useless"? No, useless would be something like Loot Radar. Being significantly tougher is not useless. It just happens that if you don't need it, you can now take those mods off and run some other stuff. Which is... the point of a mod system. Things are optional. Modifications. Not 'requirements'.

Ever hear of 'opportunity cost'? The benefit you get from survivability mods is now slightly lower absolutely, and relatively speaking much lower (instead of literally getting 500% the toughness you're only running maybe 125%). This puts their opportunity costs in-line with all the other mods, which are now, you know, equally viable.

[f3llyn]

Please elaborate how these modifications promote diversity.

All it did was making survival cards useless, and no: not optional. Useless

It would be optional if you could actually tank in this game, but that would require a healer class since other than shields, nothing regenerates, so you cant just stand in front of bosses to tank.

The only thing the current bonuses promote are less skilled players. There is no other point to them unless you wish to tell us that one players breezing through missions alone is the desired effect we were looking towards for.

Good job at looking at the big picture there sport. DE has said and it's been repeated in every new thread on this that has come up that they will be tweaking difficulty settings in the future.

Why do you assume that just because it's like this today it will remain like this tomorrow? Two week ago the current mod system was non-existant. 1 week ago we had no passives.

All the concerns reolving around this system have already been addressed.

Um what? "Because you no longer have to use them they're useless"? No, useless would be something like Loot Radar. Being significantly tougher is not useless. It just happens that if you don't need it, you can now take those mods off and run some other stuff. Which is... the point of a mod system. Things are optional. Modifications. Not 'requirements'.

Ever hear of 'opportunity cost'? The benefit you get from survivability mods is now slightly lower absolutely, and relatively speaking much lower (instead of literally getting 500% the toughness you're only running maybe 125%). This puts their opportunity costs in-line with all the other mods, which are now, you know, equally viable.

Well said.

Edited April 3, 2013 by f3llyn

[Cakes]

i

That just enforces the idea that those particular mods are pretty much always required. The passives were meant to promote mod diversity.

Redirection and Vitality mods as they are right now are too powerful with the passives. A lot of posts saying "if it makes the game too easy don't use those mods" are basically asking the player to force diversity in order to challenge themselves. Something's wrong with that picture if the goal was promoting diversity in mod loadouts, as it would suggest that Redirection and Vitality are now so powerful that there is no cause to swap them for other mods aside from gimmicky reasons.

On that note, I'm not seeing quite as many "I need Flow where does it drop please someone anyone take my money for Flow" posts. Seemed to coincide with the passive energy buffs. Did the base energy increase remove the need for those mods and increase diversity for that card slot, or did it just relegate Flow to spam-4 builds.

I liked it better when I had to decide to take Flow or use another mod and suffer more often from low energy.

Ever hear of 'opportunity cost'? The benefit you get from survivability mods is now slightly lower absolutely, and relatively speaking much lower (instead of literally getting 500% the toughness you're only running maybe 125%). This puts their opportunity costs in-line with all the other mods, which are now, you know, equally viable.

Not quite true. Given that base shield and health pools are higher, the benefits gained from Redirection and Vitality mods are even greater due to their percentage based boosts. Not sure where you pulled 500% and 125% from, as a percentage based increase will be the same percentage regardless of the base value. The only benefit is being able to achieve the same shield/health pool prior to the hotfix with a lower ranked Redirection and Vitality, allowing perhaps an additional mod ot be used or a stronger version of another mod. Therefore to most players ( as they likley do not own multiple copies, not to mention Rank 10 copies) the opportunity cost of using other mods are now even higher as you are foregoing even more shield and health than before.

You said it yourself in prior posts that enemies on harder planets chew through your shields and health so quickly that you don't see how the rest of us can breeze through it. Combined with the passive health and shield increases, Redirection and Vitality mods have essentially become a ticket for lower skilled players to Solo harder planets and a godmode pass for higher skilled players, placing less emphasis on what little skill factor Warframe had outside of aiming your boomcannon and timing your charged attacks.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Cakes

[Aerensiniac]

Um what? "Because you no longer have to use them they're useless"? No, useless would be something like Loot Radar. Being significantly tougher is not useless. It just happens that if you don't need it, you can now take those mods off and run some other stuff. Which is... the point of a mod system. Things are optional. Modifications. Not 'requirements'.

Let me point out the contradiction (so you can actually see it) you have just said: You dont need it = optional

Please try to understand the irony of having a mod system around that features mods which (i quote) "you don't need".

With this logic we should also have the option to wrap warframes in toilet paper. You might not need it, it might do nothing, but its perfectly viable as an option.

Good job at looking at the big picture there sport. DE has said and it's been repeated in every new thread on this that has come up that they will be tweaking difficulty settings in the future.

Why do you assume that just because it's like this today it will remain like this tomorrow? Two week ago the current mod system was non-existant. 1 week ago we had no passives.

I do not assume that it will stay like this, but i assume that it can go down the wrong path unless people voice their opinion and point out the flaws in the idea.

Looking at MJ12's post this also seems to be a necessity.

When we hit the level where you put an "equals sign" between optional and "dont need it", anyone can know that we have issues.

All the concerns reolving around this system have already been addressed.

Seemingly not. Edited April 3, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[f3llyn]

Let me point out the contradiction (so you can actually see it) you have just said: You dont need it = optional

Please try to understand the irony of having a mod system around that features mods which you (i quote) "do not need".

With this logic we should also have the option to wrap warframes in toilet paper. You might not need it, it might do nothing, but its perfectly viable as an option.

I do not assume that it will stay like this, but i assume that it can go down the wrong path unless people voice their opinion and point out the flaws in the idea.

Looking at MJ12's post this also seems to be a necessity.

When we hit the level where you put an "equals sign" between optional and "dont need it", anyone can know that we have issues.

Seemingly not.

Seemingly not? Granted we don't know how they're going to change things in the future but they have said they are going to change both game difficulty and the shield/hp mods. What else is there to talk about?

And the rest of your post doens't make sense. There are still people who need those mods and other more skilled players who don't and those players will invest in other mods. They are in no way made redundant. There are still areas in the game that will chew threw 800 shields and 600 hp more quickly than you can recover from a stun. So yeah, they're still needed in some places.

I don't believe the post from people saying they are running through pluto or eris or sedna without decent level frames/weapons and not being touched. We really must not be playing the same game.

Edited April 3, 2013 by f3llyn

[Ajido]

Redirection and Vitality need heavy nerfs in my opinion. The game is just way too easy right now and borderline boring to play. I feel the mod cost on both should be much higher, possibly starting at 10, and the percentage of HP/Shield they give lowered by half. This way, you can still be tanky but you truly do have to make sacrifices.

[MJ12]

Not quite true. Given that base shield and health pools are higher, the benefits gained from Redirection and Vitality mods are even greater due to their percentage based boosts. Not sure where you pulled 500% and 125% from, as a percentage based increase will be the same percentage regardless of the base value. The only benefit is being able to achieve the same shield/health pool prior to the hotfix with a lower ranked Redirection and Vitality, allowing perhaps an additional mod ot be used or a stronger version of another mod. Therefore to most players ( as they likley do not own multiple copies, not to mention Rank 10 copies) the opportunity cost of using other mods are now even higher as you are foregoing even more shield and health than before.

Check for yourself, the percentage boosts from Redirection/Vitality are based off of base health/shields. They are significantly less powerful in a relative sense. And even if you were right, the benefit from survival mods like Redirection/Vitality isn't "bigger numbers". It's "die less often". If you don't die without them at all, Redirection and Vitality are effectively useless. So this still would have made them far less critical, relatively speaking, and decreased the opportunity cost of not using Redirection/Vitality a ton.

You said it yourself in prior posts that enemies on harder planets chew through your shields and health so quickly that you don't see how the rest of us can breeze through it. Combined with the passive health and shield increases, Redirection and Vitality mods have essentially become a ticket for lower skilled players to Solo harder planets and a godmode pass for higher skilled players, placing less emphasis on what little skill factor Warframe had outside of aiming your boomcannon and timing your charged attacks.

And this is inherently bad why? Someone who is halfway competent at the game should be able to see more or less all the content. They shouldn't be walled from half the content just because they don't measure up to whatever arbitrary standard of skill someone sets. "You have to earn your fun" should have been a dead and buried meme long ago.

[UnderYourBed]

Oh great, another "PEOPLE R HAVING FUN STAHP IT DE!" thread.

[Xtorma]

There has to be a balance. If you add shields and health, then you make mobs harder, you are right back where you started with everyone needing to equip vit/redir mods again.

Fact is they can not make this game hard enough to challenge some of the players here. They are in every game, the ones who stroll through all content like playing marco polo in a bathtub. There is just as much danger in losing fans in making a game too hard or tedious, than there is in making it too easy. If every mob becomes a bullet sponge the game loses it's pace and becomes like old eq1, where you had to beat on a mob for 5 minutes to kill it.

[f3llyn]

Not to worry guys. They buffed enemies to the extreme in today's hotfix. You're going to die in 2 or 3 hits regardless of what your shields or hp are now in places like Pluto and Eris.

Edited April 3, 2013 by f3llyn

[CaligoIllioneus]

Yes, I noticed Exta got a bit harder ^^

I haven't been to Pluto after the update yet, but I liked the extra challenge on Ceres.

Now two of our group and myself actually died to the boss and had to be helped by teammates. Also, I had to tone down the ramboing run-and-gun against huge groups of enemies.

[__Kanade__]

And i dont think that this is a positive thing.

When players start to solo up entire mid/above mid level range missions head on, then the game is simply out of balance.

It would be one thing to beat a map solo in stealth.

Its a different thing when you can sweep an entire map alone due to OP passives.

If you can kill the entire map alone, what do you think how much more difficult will it get with 4 players? -75% ?

Doesn't mean my frame still has the 1337 pR0 360xNoSc0p3xMLgAdvancedTactics like in U.6.

[Feddy]

BOOM New patch out, game is super fun again and even some lower tier missions gave me and my friend some trouble

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET !

[f3llyn]

Yes, I noticed Exta got a bit harder ^^

I haven't been to Pluto after the update yet, but I liked the extra challenge on Ceres.

Now two of our group and myself actually died to the boss and had to be helped by teammates. Also, I had to tone down the ramboing run-and-gun against huge groups of enemies.

You're going to need a lot of shields on Pluto. If you get hit by more than 1 or 2 enemies and don't kill them quick they'll down you in a second or two.

[CaligoIllioneus]

I'm going to go and do a Pluto mission in a few minutes to see by myself and then I will post the results here.

[CaligoIllioneus]

You're going to need a lot of shields on Pluto. If you get hit by more than 1 or 2 enemies and don't kill them quick they'll down you in a second or two.

I'm going to go and do a Pluto mission in a few minutes to see by myself and then I will post the results here.

Pluto - Acheron - Solo

Abilities used: two Overloads.

No redirection - base shields.

I lost 96 HP in total (I have 450)

I'm not seeing any of that "downed in a second or two".

Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus