Suggestion: How To Fix The Stupid Stance Rng

[(PSN)goodvibes9508]

Suggestion:make The Dojo ...well A Dojo

Ok ever since u13 dropped I've throughout it was the dimmest thing in the world to lock the stances behind RNG walls, I remember how long it took me to find my first aura mod -.-.

So here's my idea have the a room in the dojo or add it into the Orokin research lab that acts like a dojo. The room would open project but instead of resources it would require kills

For example : for the clashing forest stance it would require - 100 greeiner lancer kills with a Bo weapon , 200 corpus kills with a Bo weapon, 5 corpus boss kills with a Bo weapon, ect and would have diffrent tiers of the stance

Rarer stances would require more kills then uncommon stances and maybe special requirements such as running missions with only that weapon equipped.

Perhapes this could also be used to distribute "required" mods such as serration, vitality, focus ect to newer players?

[Nyxcha]

Suggestion:make The Dojo ...well A Dojo

Ok ever since u13 dropped I've throughout it was the dimmest thing in the world to lock the stances behind RNG walls, I remember how long it took me to find my first aura mod -.-.

So here's my idea have the a room in the dojo or add it into the Orokin research lab that acts like a dojo. The room would open project but instead of resources it would require kills

For example : for the clashing forest stance it would require - 100 greeiner lancer kills with a Bo weapon , 200 corpus kills with a Bo weapon, 5 corpus boss kills with a Bo weapon, ect and would have diffrent tiers of the stance

Rarer stances would require more kills then uncommon stances and maybe special requirements such as running missions with only that weapon equipped.

Perhapes this could also be used to distribute "required" mods such as serration, vitality, focus ect to newer players?

so in short its a quest system.

 

interesting....

 

warframe does need to consider its story line a bit more now that its got more players coming.

so this could be a nice start.

 

of coarse, people would need to be in a dojo to do it.

 

 

 

i like the idea, for uncommon stance mods.

 

but for rare...well they RARE.   they should stay as is atm.

[SquirmyBurrito]

No, I'd rather they keep it as is. Why should stance mods not be subject to the same drop system that so many other mods are? Is it because they're new and players want them asap? Just play the game, you'll get plenty of them. Transmutation also works extremely well for uncommon stances.

[AdmiralAvalanche]

i like this idea here have a +1, but it would be much better if it took a long time, but you had certainty of gaining them without the gamble, allowing players to choose between consistency and potential speed (RNG)

[VScipii26]

No, I'd rather they keep it as is. Why should stance mods not be subject to the same drop system that so many other mods are? Is it because they're new and players want them asap? Just play the game, you'll get plenty of them. Transmutation also works extremely well for uncommon stances.

Because it makes getting them engaging, which is good design.

Grinding Kiste and Xini, places where new players would die near-instantly, is a non-solution. The same goes for transmutation. The wonderful wonderful system in which you put in four different Frame ults and get Reach.

[HeelSouls]

No, I'd rather they keep it as is. Why should stance mods not be subject to the same drop system that so many other mods are? Is it because they're new and players want them asap? Just play the game, you'll get plenty of them. Transmutation also works extremely well for uncommon stances.

So you believe a combo should be locked behind RnG? Give me 3 other games which use such a silly mechanic to allow the use of combos. Combos should be learned not picked up, So maybe not just 200 kills and bam new stance but definatley not 2000 runs of 50min survival or 200+ plat for a COMBO!

Here is my idea and im thinking of this as I write, and I don't even get paid for this.

So maybe its starts of as you have to get 200 kills for say part 1 of the combo (the first basic combo you have) then you have to do a test to actually unlock this and gain access to part 2 similar to mastery. The test would give you a CHALLENGING situation ,not just kill these enemies test complete.You would have to apply the use of the first part of the combo to various situations.Once complete you would gain access to the second part of the combo and thus being much more difficult you would have to try a lot harder in the test and even fail! The second combo test would require you to use both combos together in a new scenario. Now onto rare stances these would be very hard to succeed in and could go up to 3 tier combos meaning 3 tests. Not everyone may gain access to the third tier due to its shear difficulty but that's a good thing why? As it requires skill and thus rewards it encouraging players to get better at the game Instaed of them reaping benefits of selling the rare mods for 200 plat early on to those eager to get their hands on a combo in a ninja game. -_-

Edited April 14, 2014 by JustTotallyEpic

[SquirmyBurrito]

Because it makes getting them engaging, which is good design.

Grinding Kiste and Xini, places where new players would die near-instantly, is a non-solution. The same goes for transmutation. The wonderful wonderful system in which you put in four different Frame ults and get Reach.

 

I don't see "kill x amount of y" as engaging or good design. The kill 10 rats quests are what turn me away from plenty of games that may have been good. Have you tried transmuting uncommons (ONLY uncommons, do not mix rares or commons into it)? I get a stance mod about every three transmutations. Rare transmuting is polluted with tons of crap that while technically rare, no one wants (okay, SOMEONE out there wants it, but they're in the minority).

 

-rant-

 

Do not use my posts as an excuse to vent.

 

The mod isn't just a combo, it is an entirely new feel to the weapon. It also provides extra points for modding. Why would a combo be learned by a group of supposedly highly trained killing machines? I see the stance mods as unlocking fragments of their lost memory.

 

2k runs is an extreme example. I can provide an equally extreme example by pointing out I got my first stance mod in my first mission after U13. And that mission was a simple exterminate. If you're currently paying 200+ platinum for a stance mod you are over paying. Uncommons can usually be bought for 10-15 platinum, and rares range from 30-150 (tranquil cleave from the most outrageous of sellers).

 

If you had to get XXX kills to unlock a combo people would be complaining even more about the grind wall. 200 kills, per combo, per stance, per weapon type. That is a lot.

 

DE can barely come up with challenging mastery rank tests, I don't see them successfully making a challenging melee mastery test.

 

Please stop bringing up trade, people can sell for whatever people are willing to pay. If you can't afford the price, and you can't get in on the selling, just sit back for a week or two and come back when the price drops.

[HeelSouls]

I don't see "kill x amount of y" as engaging or good design. The kill 10 rats quests are what turn me away from plenty of games that may have been good. Have you tried transmuting uncommons (ONLY uncommons, do not mix rares or commons into it)? I get a stance mod about every three transmutations. Rare transmuting is polluted with tons of crap that while technically rare, no one wants (okay, SOMEONE out there wants it, but they're in the minority).

 

 

Do not use my posts as an excuse to vent.

 

The mod isn't just a combo, it is an entirely new feel to the weapon. It also provides extra points for modding. Why would a combo be learned by a group of supposedly highly trained killing machines? I see the stance mods as unlocking fragments of their lost memory.

 

2k runs is an extreme example. I can provide an equally extreme example by pointing out I got my first stance mod in my first mission after U13. And that mission was a simple exterminate. If you're currently paying 200+ platinum for a stance mod you are over paying. Uncommons can usually be bought for 10-15 platinum, and rares range from 30-150 (tranquil cleave from the most outrageous of sellers).

 

If you had to get XXX kills to unlock a combo people would be complaining even more about the grind wall. 200 kills, per combo, per stance, per weapon type. That is a lot.

 

DE can barely come up with challenging mastery rank tests, I don't see them successfully making a challenging melee mastery test.

 

Please stop bringing up trade, people can sell for whatever people are willing to pay. If you can't afford the price, and you can't get in on the selling, just sit back for a week or two and come back when the price drops.

Simply Dismissing my previous post as a rant is incorrect and a bad way to engage in a discussion. You were simply attacking the tone of my argument obviously I am going to be frustrated if someone believes that RNG on everything is the way forward because that's what It was like before. Of course I will be frustrated if you attack my post in a uncritical way of the substance that I have written. 

1. The most Outrageous comment of them all and quite obviously hilarious. "DE can barely come up with challenging mastery rank tests, I don't see them making a challenging melee mastery test." So you are effectively saying saying in this part of your argument that because DE in the past haven't been successful in making mastery tests, bearing in mind these tests are very old. They can't make new more challenging ones for Melee? Why play and even support the game if you have the mentality that becuase they didn't do it well a year ago when the had a small player base and little experience. They can't do it now?

2. The Mod isn't a combo" Oh dear. Do you even play warframe? The Stance screen where you view the different COMBOS! Available to that stance.It clearly describes at the top of the Combos, the word combos.

3.You didn't read my post, I said that for the basic stance 200 kills (this was also just a random number DE can change that number to whatever the wish they have the ability to write code if you didn't realise that either.) which to be honest isn't even a grind it is easily capable in one game so the term "Grind wall" isn't even appliable here.

4.About the Trading and Platinum section, taking advantage of players whithout experience in the game is common in trading and I am all the wiser to it 200plat is very common to see for tranquil cleave. Hell I know someone who sold if for 500plat. They also sold Gleaming Talon for 150, for Combos. Really you thing that is fair? Dc Universe online has a reasonable combo system where you gain skill points which you can spend on unlocking new combos for weapons. At no point do they make it available to people to spend 200plat on a combo. What makes it worse is that Warframe is advertised as a ninja game Combos should be way more available to players but also have a skill level so that a mastery rank 1 with no experience can't just get taxi'ed and get these mods, but instead learn and rise the ranks as they gain skill.

 

I'll leave this here for when you reply.

Edited April 14, 2014 by JustTotallyEpic

[notionphil]

I don't see "kill x amount of y" as engaging or good design.

 

You find RNG drops more engaging than "use X weapon, get better at it"?

[SquirmyBurrito]

Simply Dismissing my previous post as a rant is incorrect and a bad way to engage in a discussion. You were simply attacking the tone of my argument obviously I am going to be frustrated if someone believes that RNG on everything is the way forward because that's what It was like before. Of course I will be frustrated if you attack my post in a uncritical way of the substance that I have written. 

1. The most Outrageous comment of them all and quite obviously hilarious. "DE can barely come up with challenging mastery rank tests, I don't see them making a challenging melee mastery test." So you are effectively saying saying in this part of your argument that because DE in the past haven't been successful in making mastery tests, bearing in mind these tests are very old. They can't make new more challenging ones for Melee? Why play and even support the game if you have the mentality that becuase they didn't do it well a year ago when the had a small player base and little experience. They can't do it now?

2. The Mod isn't a combo" Oh dear. Do you even play warframe? The Stance screen where you view the different COMBOS! Available to that stance.It clearly describes at the top of the Combos, the word combos.

3.You didn't read my post, I said that for the basic stance 200 kills (this was also just a random number DE can change that number to whatever the wish they have the ability to write code if you didn't realise that either.) which to be honest isn't even a grind it is easily capable in one game so the term "Grind wall" isn't even appliable here.

4.About the Trading and Platinum section, taking advantage of players whithout experience in the game is common in trading and I am all the wiser to it 200plat is very common to see for tranquil cleave. Hell I know someone who sold if for 500plat. They also sold Gleaming Talon for 150, for Combos. Really you thing that is fair? Dc Universe online has a reasonable combo system where you gain skill points which you can spend on unlocking new combos for weapons. At no point do they make it available to people to spend 200plat on a combo. What makes it worse is that Warframe is advertised as a ninja game Combos should be way more available to players but also have a skill level so that a mastery rank 1 with no experience can't just get taxi'ed and get these mods, but instead learn and rise the ranks as they gain skill.

 

I'll leave this here for when you reply.

 

 

I didn't just dismiss your post as a rant. I asked you not to use my posts as an excuse to rant. I then went on to respond to its contents. Getting frustrated over the fact that someone has a different opinion than you is not something I'd label and obvious reaction.

 

1. Don't be dense. Plenty of those mastery tests are actually fairly recent. I don't play the game for its mastery tests.

 

2. Yes I play the game. A stance is a group of combos, not one. It also has the added benefit of providing more points for modding.

 

3. 200 kills is a grind. You didn't say 200 per stance, you said " 200 kills for say part 1 of the combo (the first basic combo you have)". 200 for a stance and 200 for one combo (when all stances have at least 4) are completely different.

 

4. 500 platinum at the beginning maybe, but if your friend is managing to sell TC for 500 plat now tell him/her they are a genius and should make a career out of it.

I don't see how being marketed as a ninja game has anything to do with combos. All it means is that it is a game with ninjas, no more, no less. I need to go so this is all you get.

 

You find RNG drops more engaging than "use X weapon, get better at it"?

 

Yes, I do. 

[notionphil]

Yes, I do. 

 

What would you find more engaging then RNG?

[SquirmyBurrito]

What would you find more engaging then RNG?

 

Depends on how much replay-ability I want the game to have.

[HeelSouls]

I didn't just dismiss your post as a rant. I asked you not to use my posts as an excuse to rant. I then went on to respond to its contents. Getting frustrated over the fact that someone has a different opinion than you is not something I'd label and obvious reaction.

 

1. Don't be dense. Plenty of those mastery tests are actually fairly recent. I don't play the game for its mastery tests.

 

2. Yes I play the game. A stance is a group of combos, not one. It also has the added benefit of providing more points for modding.

 

3. 200 kills is a grind. You didn't say 200 per stance, you said " 200 kills for say part 1 of the combo (the first basic combo you have)". 200 for a stance and 200 for one combo (when all stances have at least 4) are completely different.

 

4. 500 platinum at the beginning maybe, but if your friend is managing to sell TC for 500 plat now tell him/her they are a genius and should make a career out of it.

I don't see how being marketed as a ninja game has anything to do with combos. All it means is that it is a game with ninjas, no more, no less. I need to go so this is all you get.

 

 

Yes, I do. 

You don't see how the game being marketed as a Ninja game has anything to do with combos? Please don't be so naive. You know that as a ninja it is perceived that you wield melee weapons, type ninja into the search and see what they are wielding. Melee 2.0 was designed to put the Ninja back in warframe and with a massive RNG wall that is where it falls short. The fact that you value RNG over skill is quite stupid but I have no comment to make on that because its your opinion but I am obliged to get frustrated over its stupidity. He sold that mod yesterday for 500plat and clarifies my point quite well that why even give people the option to pay for a series of combos in a ninja oriented game thats like making people pay for the ability to shoot a gun when prone,crouched or standing in battlefield.

200 kills per stance isn't unreasonable but can easily be toned down to a players mastery level. I can easily get 200 melee kills in one survival if I am dedicated to it which is what they want in melee 2.0.   

 

Also the comment about being dense. What? At no point did you even answer my question.Just because you didn't player for mastery tests which can easily be made more interesting doesn't mean that 7million others shouldn't be able to. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by JustTotallyEpic

[notionphil]

Depends on how much replay-ability I want the game to have.

 

That's all it depends on?

 

Sense of accomplishment, lack of frustration and ability to define/achieve goals are not factors in your definition of engagement?

[SquirmyBurrito]

You don't see how the game being marketed as a Ninja game has anything to do with combos? Please don't be so naive. You know that as a ninja it is perceived that you wield melee weapons, type ninja into the search and see what they are wielding. Melee 2.0 was designed to put the Ninja back in warframe and with a massive RNG wall that is where it falls short. The fact that you value RNG over skill is quite stupid but I have no comment to make on that because its your opinion but I am obliged to get frustrated over its stupidity. He sold that mod yesterday for 500plat and clarifies my point quite well that why even give people the option to pay for a series of combos in a ninja oriented game thats like making people pay for the ability to shoot a gun when prone,crouched or standing in battlefield.

200 kills per stance isn't unreasonable but can easily be toned down to a players mastery level. I can easily get 200 melee kills in one survival if I am dedicated to it which is what they want in melee 2.0.   

 

Also the comment about being dense. What? At no point did you even answer my question.Just because you didn't player for mastery tests which can easily be made more interesting doesn't mean that 7million others shouldn't be able to. 

 

I'm not naive. You have a different perception of what the word ninja entails. When I hear 'ninja [anything]' all I know is that it has ninja and [anything]. Wielding a melee weapon does not immediately imply a combo system.

I could have sworn melee 2.0's aim was to make melee less boring and actually make melee weapons viable. I don't remember DE citing ninja-fying as its purpose.

 

No comment? You just called my opinion stupid. I never once said that I value RNG over skill. Do not put words in my metaphorical mouth. I said I prefer RNG to 'kill 10 rats' quests, 'kill 10 rats' does not immediately imply skill. If you want to get frustrated over my differing opinion, maybe you shouldn't reply. I do not get on these forums to have my opinions insulted.

 

Your friend was incredibly lucky. I was on trade chat yesterday and the highest I saw requested for tranquil cleave was 200p. The highest I saw offered was 100p. If your friend managed to find someone willing to pay 500, despite there being a constant 'WTS Tranquil Cleave for 150 plat, PM me' tell that friend to make a career out of selling things for well over their usual price. He's obviously really good at it (that or his customer was incredibly... not smart. Giving the option to pay, is not the same as requiring people to pay. People can pay for convenience, or 'work' for it like everyone else. You like it, I don't.

 

I didn't answer your question because it worked off the assumption that I said something that I never said. I never said players shouldn't or can't play the game purely for the mastery tests. I said I didn't. If the majority of warframe players are playing for the mastery tests, and not the much more random other parts of the game then I feel sorry for them. They're playing a game with about 15 of those tests currently available, when there are numerous games out their that offer a similar experience for the entirety of their game time.

 

That's all it depends on?

 

Sense of accomplishment, lack of frustration and ability to define/achieve goals are not factors in your definition of engagement?

 

No, what I'm saying is that my answer depends upon whether or not I wanted to be able to come back and replay the game multiple times.

If yes: RNG is a must. I need the game to be different (to some extent) every time I go back. Otherwise I'm only going to go back to it after a multi-year span.

 

If no: The game can and should be mostly scripted. So having major components of the game being dictated by a safety net-less RNG is not going to work.

Warframe is the former. It is meant to be highly replay-able (especially since there is no real end yet). Drops must be random to some extent so as to change my experience with the game. If I know I can farm X amount of Y for Z, and this never changes, there is no mystery. Its like going to see a movie I've already seen before. It's only worth it when I've waited long enough that I've forgotten a bunch of it. I know this isn't how everyone looks at things, and I know plenty may disagree with me. But you asked for my input, and here it is.

[notionphil]

I'm not naive. You have a different perception of what the word ninja entails. When I hear 'ninja [anything]' all I know is that it has ninja and [anything]. Wielding a melee weapon does not immediately imply a combo system.

I could have sworn melee 2.0's aim was to make melee less boring and actually make melee weapons viable. I don't remember DE citing ninja-fying as its purpose.

 

No comment? You just called my opinion stupid. I never once said that I value RNG over skill. Do not put words in my metaphorical mouth. I said I prefer RNG to 'kill 10 rats' quests, 'kill 10 rats' does not immediately imply skill. If you want to get frustrated over my differing opinion, maybe you shouldn't reply. I do not get on these forums to have my opinions insulted.

 

Your friend was incredibly lucky. I was on trade chat yesterday and the highest I saw requested for tranquil cleave was 200p. The highest I saw offered was 100p. If your friend managed to find someone willing to pay 500, despite there being a constant 'WTS Tranquil Cleave for 150 plat, PM me' tell that friend to make a career out of selling things for well over their usual price. He's obviously really good at it (that or his customer was incredibly... not smart. Giving the option to pay, is not the same as requiring people to pay. People can pay for convenience, or 'work' for it like everyone else. You like it, I don't.

 

I didn't answer your question because it worked off the assumption that I said something that I never said. I never said players shouldn't or can't play the game purely for the mastery tests. I said I didn't. If the majority of warframe players are playing for the mastery tests, and not the much more random other parts of the game then I feel sorry for them. They're playing a game with about 15 of those tests currently available, when there are numerous games out their that offer a similar experience for the entirety of their game time.

 

 

No, what I'm saying is that my answer depends upon whether or not I wanted to be able to come back and replay the game multiple times.

If yes: RNG is a must. I need the game to be different (to some extent) every time I go back. Otherwise I'm only going to go back to it after a multi-year span.

 

If no: The game can and should be mostly scripted. So having major components of the game being dictated by a safety net-less RNG is not going to work.

Warframe is the former. It is meant to be highly replay-able (especially since there is no real end yet). Drops must be random to some extent so as to change my experience with the game. If I know I can farm X amount of Y for Z, and this never changes, there is no mystery. Its like going to see a movie I've already seen before. It's only worth it when I've waited long enough that I've forgotten a bunch of it. I know this isn't how everyone looks at things, and I know plenty may disagree with me. But you asked for my input, and here it is.

 

RNG is an incredibly useful content generation tool. I won't disagree there.

 

However, I totally disagree that it's "a must" to make rewards more engaging, as that was precisely what we were discussing.

 

If you're constantly acquiring trinket A, and you'll need 100's of them, sure RNG is the best way to keep that interesting. No one will enjoy looting chest A in level A for trinket A 100's of times. That fits your movie analogy perfectly - no mystery.

 

However, if you're in Warframe, a game with hundreds of unique mods, weapons and frames that a player only wants one copy of, RNG isn't helpful for keeping content interesting. Each 'trinket' could easily have its own unique method of obtaining.

 

Trinket A is in chest A.

Trinket B spawns when you kill monster B.

Trinket C drops when you kill monster B with a single headshot.

Trinket D only appears when you open chest A while wearing trinket C

etc

 

This is far less repetitive than Warframe's alternative, fight faction A ad infinitum and you'll eventually get a trinket A-Q. However, it's also far more developer resource intensive, so it cant be expected to be used in every situation.

 

RNG is a great shortcut, but when it becomes the only pathway to obtain content, and there's essentially a single action (kill monsters A-Q), RNG itself becomes 'open chest A' over and over.

 

Stance mods were a perfect opportunity to tie incredibly logical rewards to unique in game actions. Want Hammer stance? Kill 5 enemies with one ground slam. Want rare Dagger stance? Perform a 20 hit dagger combo.

 

The alternative that we're currently playing is "want a stance mod? Find what faction drops it, then fight that faction...indefinitely". Not very engaging.

Edited April 15, 2014 by notionphil

[SquirmyBurrito]

RNG is an incredibly useful content generation tool. I won't disagree there.

 

However, I totally disagree that it's "a must" to make rewards more engaging, as that was precisely what we were discussing.

 

If you're constantly acquiring trinket A, and you'll need 100's of them, sure RNG is the best way to keep that interesting. No one will enjoy looting chest A in level A for trinket A 100's of times. That fits your movie analogy perfectly - no mystery.

 

However, if you're in Warframe, a game with hundreds of unique mods, weapons and frames that a player only wants one copy of, RNG isn't helpful for keeping content interesting. Each 'trinket' could easily have its own unique method of obtaining.

 

Trinket A is in chest A.

Trinket B spawns when you kill monster B.<---------------------------------

Trinket C drops when you kill monster B with a single headshot.

Trinket D only appears when you open chest A while wearing trinket C

etc

 

This is far less repetitive than Warframe's alternative, fight faction A ad infinitum and you'll eventually get a trinket A-Q. However, it's also far more developer resource intensive, so it cant be expected to be used in every situation.

 

RNG is a great shortcut, but when it becomes the only pathway to obtain content, and there's essentially a single action (kill monsters A-Q), RNG itself becomes 'open chest A' over and over.

 

Stance mods were a perfect opportunity to tie incredibly logical rewards to unique in game actions. Want Hammer stance? Kill 5 enemies with one ground slam. Want rare Dagger stance? Perform a 20 hit dagger combo.

 

The alternative that we're currently playing is "want a stance mod? Find what faction drops it, then fight that faction...indefinitely". Not very engaging.

 

Warframe does go as far as your second option, I agree that all four options sound like they could work. I just like to stay away from guaranteed drops that either require you repeat that action hundreds of times (monotonous with no chance of relief), or guaranteed drops that give you what you need immediately (instant gratification with no real change from one 'play through' to the next). 

Warframe has items drop from specific enemy types (as you certainly know). I'm guess it strays from your recommended  path in that multiple things are dropped by the same enemy type, and the only thing that dictates which item you get is a more complex version of spinning a the wheel of fortune. 

 

While those examples sound nice, they're still cases of 'kill 10 rats'. I hate those. If that method was used to acquire the uncommon stances while the rares were still dropped the way they are now I could probably get over it.

My only other suggestion would be that DE implements a safety net so that there is no chance someone will farm and never find what they're looking for. Sorta like a hybrid of the 'kill 10 rats' (but with a higher number) and what we have now.