Melee 2.0 = Swinging At Dead Enemies

[notionphil]

A blade's sharpness is meaningless if your enemy is dead before you reach him.

As that new-sword-smell wears off, I'm noticing most players going back to rarely equipping their melee weapon despite a tremendous bump in viability. Why?

Effectiveness, in combat terms is the ability to effectively bring force to bear on your enemies.  With melee, that means speed, range and mobility. Nothing introduced in Melee 2.0 addressed melee's biggest weakness, the ability to reach your target before it's dead.

 

I propose turning the least useful aspects of M2.0, the combos, into a solution for melee's lacking ability to engage targets.

 

TL;DR -  Simplify Combos and turn the big-hit-finishers into Katas - 'channeled' special attacks that consume energy & can be used instantly. Make Hit Chains award energy to create melee synergy between skill-based combo streaks and big Kata hits.

 

A Standing Ovation for the Good Parts

Melee 2.0 introduced a number of impressive new mechanics which greatly improved melee's viability. Channeling, Bullet Deflection and Enhanced Blocking allow you to effectively deal massive damage to targets, and increase your safety while engaging. I'm a tremendous fan of both of these systems (though the stamina drain needs to be lowered on blocking). I could go on more about how well executed these are, but I'll stop for brevity's sake.

Multi-hit Combos in a Single-Hit World

Unfortunately, the keystone of the M2.0 system was flawed in its concept, while not its execution. Stances, combos and hit chains do not increase melee's killing ability, at all.

Simply put - In order for melee to be as viable as guns, it MUST kill enemies in as few hits as possible. At high level, this means 1000s of damage per hit...and, with channeling it does!

 

Great for melee, bad for combos.

 

A single-target combo mechanic is at odds with melee's success. If you're in a situation where you can combo - that means melee is too weak and a gun would have worked better. Thankfully melee is rarely too weak, so combos are instead mostly useless.

Are Combos 100% Bad?

Combos are beautiful and enjoyable to execute, but lack in gameplay efficacy. However, some combos have a saving grace, their finisher - a lunging thrust that hits a target 10M away, a groundpound with a large AoE stagger, or a 360 circular spin that puts the hurt on enemies all around. In other games, we'd call these 'special attacks'.

These special attacks are the only reason to execute a combo, and they are incredibly satisfying and effective when timed correctly. I've taken out 5 Grineer at once with a Burning Wasp 360 degree whip slash.

This was no easy feat, because by the time your combo is on its finisher - your enemy is probably already finished. Either by your own combo, or by an ally's Penta.

Like most finishers, Burning Wasp's amazing AoE finisher is nearly 4 seconds into a combo capable of killing nearby enemies in one hit! In order to use it effectively, I have to plan to be surrounded by Grinner 4 seconds from now, not kill them with the initial 3 hits, somehow, and also have my allies not kill them with a single spray of their incredible powerful guns! It was nearly impossible, and I'd probably have to solo to replicate it!

However, that unique attack is what melee weapons should be capable of all the time - why lock it behind 4 seconds of lethal attacks, making it incredibly likely to perform to a 'dead audience'?

Melee 2.1 - Turning Combos into Something Useful

I propose that each Stance offer a single unique combo, which is executed by repeatedly pressing E. In the rare situation that you actually need to hit an enemy multiple times, you're likely spamming the button anyway.

However, each stance would also offer 1 or 2 special attacks called Katas, which are enhanced versions of the 'finisher' hits already found in combos. Every Kata is considered 'channeled' and will take between 10-15 energy*, affected by Channel mods.

 

If DE wants 'skill based execution' They could be performed via simple combinations of holding E, tapping a movement/channeling key, and then releasing. Otherwise, they could be a simple hold E, release.

 

Each Kata would be designed with a specific battlefield purpose in mind. Range, AoE, Proc, Defense, Stun or Mobility. These moves would (mostly) be pulled from existing weapon animations, and tweaked with new effects or travel distances, there are plenty of existing art resources in D2.0 to choose from.

 

*Hit Chains - Skill based energy & stamina resoration

The hit chain mechanic would also be re-purposed to fit this concept. Currently, a longer hit chain adds damage to melee, which is a nice concept, but adding damage is of little utility when the range, mobility and speed are truly what hampers melee. (Additionally, the timer currently needs a longer reset delay).

 

I propose that in addition to a damage bonus, your hit chain rewards you with energy to power your Katas; 10 energy at 5 hits, 15 energy at 10 hits etc. These numbers would need tweaking, but essentially a single completed combo should give you enough energy to do a Kata - creating a synergistic relationship between melee skill (successful hit chains) and finishers (katas which expend energy).

 

Every milestone would also 100% refill your stamina bar.

 

I'd prefer if hit chains created another unique resource for Katas here, but energy will suffice for now.

 

Some Example Stances and Katas:

Burning Wasp - Whip. High linear damage, at range
   

    Combo: E,E,E,E
 

    Molten Stinger (10 energy) - Tenno lunges 5M forward, slinging the whip directly ahead which catches fire, it extends up to 10 M long lashing a single target. Deals 2x damage and has punch-through. 100% fire proc.
   
Coiling Viper - Whip. Swiping AoE attacks
   

    Combo: E,E,E
 

    Naga Fang (10 energy) - Tenno pauses for .7 sec, then slams the whip into the ground and piercing whip ends burst upwards, striking all enemies in a 7M radius. Deals 1x damage, 100% toxic proc.
 

    Asp's rattle (15 energy) - Tenno Spins the whip in a 8M circle once, hitting each enemy in range.

Homing Fang - Dagger. Massive single target damage
   

    Combo: E,E,E
 

    Soul Pierce (10 energy)- Tenno pulls his dagger back while charging, then dives 10M forward (like wall attack). Can deal headshot damage. Travels through multiple targets. Deals 4X damage

Pointed Wind - Dagger. High bleed procs and evasion attacks.
     

      Combo: E,E,E
 

      Flaying Gust (10 energy) - Tenno jumps directly up into the air, while spinning, leaving a torrent of biting wind in his place. Lands 5M away. Wind Torrent lasts 2 seconds, and deals .5x damage in a 5M per second.  Deals 2X damage. 50% bleed proc per tick

 
      Slashing Gale (10 energy) - Tenno spins 360 with dagger extended for 2 sec, and wind arcs slash all within 3M dealing .Can move at normal speed while spinning. 5x damage per rotation, with 100% bleed proc.
        
Katas & Energy Regen from Hit Chains - a Modest Fix, with Massive Results

Conceiving and re-structuring combos into Katas will take some time. However, much of the heavy lifting of animation, content creation and mod dissemination has been done, and done well. Re-purposing those underused assets by turning the finisher into Katas would have numerous benefits for melee.

• Turn combos from a cinematic experience of watching your tenno twist and turn rather arbitrarily, into a dance of death under your control.
   
• Allow us to control the flow of action, as opposed to hoping for a specific gameplay opportunity to use a combo. This also interacts with the Energy regen from Hit Chains, rewarding us for taking the ever-present risk of entering into melee.
   
• Add far more uniqueness to each stance by giving them various roles; mobility, proc, AoE, single target damage etc.
   
• Most importantly, it will make melee weapons even more viable by increasing their ability to bring force to bear on our enemies in ways that guns cannot. Melee weapons will never kill as efficiently at range, but Katas will allow them to close range quickly, and engage enemies in unique tactical patterns that guns cannot replicate.

   

   

Edited April 14, 2014 by notionphil

[LukeAura]

My main issue with combos is that it takes so long before you actually hit the gap closing strike of the combo.
This would definitely help solve that issue. and open the possibility to chain hits better, meaning you could chain melee->Kata or Kata->Melee. A dance of death indeed. 

Although this may mean certain abilities of warframe's will start to become obsolete in comparison. Especially considering how melee damage will scale. 
Rhino Charge, Slash Dash, anything on the short range of AoE 10-15 meters. Reach gives a range boost too, so saying you can mod Stretch for extra range doesn't necessarily cover that. 
Will the extra flexibility of abilities, being usable at all times not just when in melee mode, be enough to keep them around when katas exist, or would they need redoing in to something more utility oriented than damage? 

[Vheraun]

To be honest? I was expecting something cheesy, much like all the stuff I've seen so far regarding Melee 2.0.

 

This isn't. This... makes sense.

 

I mean, sure, the combos are awesome, both in looks and in effect. But when you get to the actual fight, they might as well have not been here, as they don't offer much more than spamming E. A distraction more than anything.

 

Now, I would like something more elegant than just another charge attack. Having 2-3 Katas on each stance would be great, as it'd require skill (knowing when, where and how to use one), but wouldn't need us to go through the whole combo to perform one. Ergo, your suggestion of button combinations works fine.

 

Finally, if I may suggest something, I'd like a different manner of energy generated by melee strikes and used up from Katas. Otherwise, it'd be just a "spam E, spam 4" situation. Whether this energy should be depleting by time (something like adrenaline) or not is for the devs to decide.

 

 

Really, I usually believe that such threads (suggesting gameplay changes right after an overhaul of that gameplay aspect) won't be taken into consideration by the devs. In this case, I truly hope it will be.

 

All my +1 and my support to this.

[notionphil]

My main issue with combos is that it takes so long before you actually hit the gap closing strike of the combo.

This would definitely help solve that issue. and open the possibility to chain hits better, meaning you could chain melee->Kata or Kata->Melee. A dance of death indeed. 

Although this may mean certain abilities of warframe's will start to become obsolete in comparison. Especially considering how melee damage will scale. 

Rhino Charge, Slash Dash, anything on the short range of AoE 10-15 meters. Reach gives a range boost too, so saying you can mod Stretch for extra range doesn't necessarily cover that. 

Will the extra flexibility of abilities, being usable at all times not just when in melee mode, be enough to keep them around when katas exist, or would they need redoing in to something more utility oriented than damage? 

 

Luke, thanks for the feedback.

 

I've done circular slashes and ground pounds on 10 times as many dead grineer as live ones. I agree wholeheartedly that the combo's biggest drawback is the time delay for that unique closing strike.

 

I do also agree that melee, and special attacks can start to overlap with warframe abilities. I find myself using the new-and-improved coptering more than Zephyr's tailwind as its much more precise and free to execute.

 

Obsolesence is sometimes the price of progress. I do suggest that these cost energy however, so ones with extreme movement would be an alternate, not a replacement. An alternate resource for Katas would counteract all of these drawbacks....but that's not exactly simple.

[LukeAura]

Luke, thanks for the feedback.

 

You're welcome as always. 

I've noticed the problem is the worst with fist weaponry. Having very laggy feeling combos, with very late gap closers and AoE, while also having one of the worst copters. They're the heavy versions of sparring weapons, without any of the benefits of sparring weapons or heavy weapons.

Zephyr's I suppose is a more unique case with her extra 3-D movement, just lacking in tiles where 3-D movement with tailwind is effective.

 

 

I also like that they're set energy rates and not per enemy hit like current channeling is. I think that's what killing channelling right now. You're already paying extra for overkill in a lot of cases, paying overkill multiple times over adds up too quickly, especially with the channel mods.

An extra energy system is complicated. Perhaps it'd be simpler if they could be tied to stamina and the combo counter could give stamina boosts every 5 hits. If Katas added to the counter could also mean good use of them would lead to a recuperation of some of the used stamina. Creating a sense of chaining these powerful melee finishers in a well timed combo that is natural and doesn't at all rely on button timings. This would mean regular strikes would have to be free or significantly cheaper though, not sure if that would go over well.

 

Sidenote: I guess this means Coptering is intended as a real game mechanic now and not a glitch anymore.

 

[notionphil]

You're welcome as always. 

I've noticed the problem is the worst with fist weaponry. Having very laggy feeling combos, with very late gap closers and AoE, while also having one of the worst copters. They're the heavy versions of sparring weapons, without any of the benefits of sparring weapons or heavy weapons.

Zephyr's I suppose is a more unique case with her extra 3-D movement, just lacking in tiles where 3-D movement with tailwind is effective.

 

 

I also like that they're set energy rates and not per enemy hit like current channeling is. I think that's what killing channelling right now. You're already paying extra for overkill in a lot of cases, paying overkill multiple times over adds up too quickly, especially with the channel mods.

An extra energy system is complicated. Perhaps it'd be simpler if they could be tied to stamina and the combo counter could give stamina boosts every 5 hits. If Katas added to the counter could also mean good use of them would lead to a recuperation of some of the used stamina. Creating a sense of chaining these powerful melee finishers in a well timed combo that is natural and doesn't at all rely on button timings. This would mean regular strikes would have to be free or significantly cheaper though, not sure if that would go over well.

 

Sidenote: I guess this means Coptering is intended as a real game mechanic now and not a glitch anymore.

 

 

Yes, I don't want to introduce any addl energy resources for simplicity's sake.

 

My issue with tying anything to stamina is that movement is stamina based and movement = melee. So you're choosing between engaging with targets quickly or having useful attacks when you finally arrive. Those choices hurt melee's viability.

 

If DE decoupled stamina from movement you could create an awesome symbiotic relationship between regular attacks (cost low stamina), ground finishers (give back medium stamina), Katas (cost mid-high stamina), and combos (give back stamina).

 

However, that's just creating a new resource for Katas, and calling it by an existing name :)

 

I will think more about the stamina system and report back.

[notionphil]

To be honest? I was expecting something cheesy, much like all the stuff I've seen so far regarding Melee 2.0.

 

This isn't. This... makes sense.

 

I mean, sure, the combos are awesome, both in looks and in effect. But when you get to the actual fight, they might as well have not been here, as they don't offer much more than spamming E. A distraction more than anything.

 

Now, I would like something more elegant than just another charge attack. Having 2-3 Katas on each stance would be great, as it'd require skill (knowing when, where and how to use one), but wouldn't need us to go through the whole combo to perform one. Ergo, your suggestion of button combinations works fine.

 

Finally, if I may suggest something, I'd like a different manner of energy generated by melee strikes and used up from Katas. Otherwise, it'd be just a "spam E, spam 4" situation. Whether this energy should be depleting by time (something like adrenaline) or not is for the devs to decide.

 

Really, I usually believe that such threads (suggesting gameplay changes right after an overhaul of that gameplay aspect) won't be taken into consideration by the devs. In this case, I truly hope it will be.

 

All my +1 and my support to this.

 

Thanks for your feedback and support

 

I'd also love if another resource were used for combat. Stamina would work perfectly if it weren't tied to movement. Creating a new resource from scratch gets more complicated, so I'm not sure of an ideal solution.

 

Agreed that 2-3 Katas per stance would be great as well.

[LukeAura]

Yes, I don't want to introduce any addl energy resources for simplicity's sake.

 

My issue with tying anything to stamina is that movement is stamina based and movement = melee. So you're choosing between engaging with targets quickly or having useful attacks when you finally arrive. Those choices hurt melee's viability.

At least then energy/ability based sources of mobility would keep use.  

And most Frames do have ways of slowing, CCing or moving for Energy to cheapen their stamina resource on movement.

I've also noticed this to already be a problem in the current system as trying to move and engage enemies eats up a lot of stamina either through parrying, sprinting, or both. And it's still hard to justify stamina mods and stamina recharge over more ability power or more shields which offer full radial protection.

Removing movement actions from the stamina system might be best. The difference between walking and sprinting would be greater player accuracy as it already is, and most players butt slide to go well beyond their stamina limits forever any ways. Probably wouldn't change much at all.

Stamina in general could use an overhaul regardless.

Rhino shouldn't be tiring as quickly when swinging a galatine as Ember would, although Ember should be able to run for longer than Rhino. 

 

[Polsvoyce]

I agree with the OP. "Special Moves" are what's really needed in the Melee 2.0 combat system.

[Endorphinz]

What if they made it like Dynasty warriors

[notionphil]

What if they made it like Dynasty warriors

 

Sad to say but...never played it other than a demo while standing in a gamestop. What is DW melee like?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

What can I say?

 

/signed

[notionphil]

What can I say?

 

/signed

 

Thanks!

 

Any thoughts on stamina vs energy as a kata(special attack) resource?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Thanks!

 

Any thoughts on stamina vs energy as a kata(special attack) resource?

Personally, I'd vote energy because melee already uses stamina.

[LukeAura]

Sad to say but...never played it other than a demo while standing in a gamestop. What is DW melee like?

Essentially it's a two button system but instead of complex combos you chain regular attacks, and hit the special attack button once for a unique 'finisher' that's animation and effects depend on when it happened during the chain.

Regular->Regular->Regular->Regular->Regular

      \               \               \              \

Special     Special    Special    Special

Edited April 15, 2014 by LukeAura

[Neogeo]

There need to be a more distinct different between the combo. Nikana had 3 different combo but the only different is the finisher damage. There's one that lunge forward could potentially useful if it didn't had such a long chain before executing the lunge. Also, the lunge attack need to auto target the closet enemy instead of just dash forward

[Davoodoo]

All i can propose to do it is making it more like beyond good and evil, this game had great multi target melee combat.

 

Simply put you can switch target at any time and character will dash/jump/charge to whichever enemy is locked on(this doesnt mean hard lock with hotkey, what i mean is that character will simply auto target enemies in chosen direction) and combo will continue on new enemy, this way you can continue combo despite enemy being dead and have easier time when fighting with multiple ranged enemies.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Davoodoo

[notionphil]

All i can propose to do it is making it more like beyond good and evil, this game had great multi target melee combat.

 

Simply put you can switch target at any time and character will dash/jump/charge to whichever enemy is locked on(this doesnt mean hard lock with hotkey, what i mean is that character will simply auto target enemies in chosen direction) and combo will continue on new enemy, this way you can continue combo despite enemy being dead and have easier time when fighting with multiple ranged enemies.

 

That was another idea that I considered, but I felt a lock on mechanic was pretty at-odds with everything else in WF.

 

Barely anything locks on, even powers that should like Soul Punch.

[Davoodoo]

That was another idea that I considered, but I felt a lock on mechanic was pretty at-odds with everything else in WF.

 

Barely anything locks on, even powers that should like Soul Punch.

We already have soft lock on included in game, just make it more responsive, increase range on it, add dash and its good to go.

Only way to screw it is adding really awkward animation or making it as slow as rolls at the moment are.

[Warriorrogue]

While I'm not particularly noticing it(Still doing majority damage when there are no nova spammers who follow me around and I'm not ranking.), I like this idea a lot.

[Blowfist]

The real differance between the melee combat in batman and the melee combat in Warframe. It's not the smooth animation and fludity you find in Batman, it's the fact that they closed the gap from one enemy to the next.

 

DE wasted their time making combos for the PS4 crowd when they should of been working on the only point that matters in melee combo.

 

Closing the gap from one enemy to the next.

[LukeAura]

Closing the gap from one enemy to the next.

Worth quoting just for the sake of a hell yes exactly.

I'd want to see what would happen if the quick lunging strikes were placed in the very beginning of combos as opposed to the ends before we went as far as katas and working out how they would balance. I'm not sure how feasible a request this is though.

 

[Polsvoyce]

I certainly hope this thread is being looked at. Melee should offer ways of closing the gap to the enemy.

[DocHolliday13]

 Stances, combos and hit chains do not increase melee's killing ability, at all.

 

Yeah, took me about two seconds to realize that when I first saw it in the livestream. Combos needed to be bigger, higher-damage hits where the "combo" part is pressing two keys simultaneously for a special attack. Melee attacks also need to not use stamina, because you're burning the very resource you need to close distance quickly.

 

But good job articulating it all, and good ideas there.

[Naqel]

Nothing introduced in Melee 2.0 addressed melee's biggest weakness, the ability to reach your target before it's dead.

 

The rest of your post is mostly worthless ramblings that introduces more issues than it'd "fix", but this one sentence showcases something very important about warframe's gameplay. It's something everyone will pick up instinctively, and experience first hand at some point in their playtime.

 

Enemies die before you get to reach them.

 

It happens for a wide variety of reasons, but melee being melee isn't one of them, even in it's current, needlessly flashy and mostly non-functional, form.

 

It's about enemy design(very few encourage or force you to melee), the way the gameplay is wrapped around ubers/power abuse, and the way players and enemies scale. Pretty much everything down to the small details like how ammo pickups work.

 

Fixing the issue of melee being "melee ranged", dose not lie in adding even more convoluted combo chains, or tacking on more and more arbitrary mechanics on top of it.

 

It lies in addressing the unhealthy gameplay design that plagues Warframe since it's conception.

The way none of it's systems really interact, much less complimenting and enhancing each other.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Naqel