Two Ability Changes To Excalibur That Would Make Him More Viable In The Eyes Of The Community.

[Axterix13]

 

Now, I'm not going to lie, Mr. Hastur here did bring up some strong numbers, he definitely did, and I'll get to that, but first I'd like to point out that instead of saying "OMG EXCALIBUR ULT OP NERF PLS", we should be saying "Hey, Hastur, your numbers are a little off, we think ______, and maybe change ____ to ______." Forgive me, because I've only been skimming this thread, but I'm not heard many constructive posts. 90% of what I read was "Dude, that's WAY too OP, just don't." But here are my thoughts.

Sorry, but when someone suggests something that is so blatantly crazy that it should require no explanation, saying that it is blatantly crazy is enough... because it shouldn't require any explanation ;)

 

 

2b) Increase melee attack speed by 2x. Tripling the damage of something like a Heat Dagger still isn't a lot of damage. We need to make it so this Ult helps more for the players that favor speed as well.

2c) Infinite channeling energy and blocking/running stamina. Again, helping out for making it a melee frame.

Both of these are problematic.  By which I mean overpowered.

 

Doubling melee speed, coupled with triple damage, means 6x the damage.  More than that in terms of effective damage terms, thanks to it also meaning additional procs, ability to shift between targets sooner, and the hit counter bonus.  Plus if a heat dagger is outdamaged by other stuff, it'll still be outdamaged by the stuff.  If there's a problem with daggers, it should be addressed by tweaking daggers.

 

Infinite blocking plus damage reflection would also cause issues, plus you're already suggesting damage resistance.  Infinite running just provides the same bonus as the speed boost from 2d, so isn't really necessary.

 

And infinite channeling energy means you can too easily take advantage of mods that have -channeling efficiency as a downside.  Admittedly, most of those suck right now, but if we assume the devs are somewhat competent, they'll adjust them to be worth using.  Okay, so they most likely won't be changed for a while.  But anyway, at the very least, this would make Life Strike super easy to use.  Combined with the damage increase, you'd gain mass quantities of health, plus carve through enemies fast enough to be able to keep the ultimate up near full time.  You would want to reduce the cost of channeling, of course, otherwise it rather limits the usefulness of the ultimate, but I don't think you can flat out reduce it to 0 when there's Life Strike in the mix.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Axterix13

[Eyeless]

Doubling melee speed, coupled with triple damage, means 6x the damage.  More than that in terms of effective damage terms, thanks to it also meaning additional procs, ability to shift between targets sooner, and the hit counter bonus.  Plus if a heat dagger is outdamaged by other stuff, it'll still be outdamaged by the stuff.  If there's a problem with daggers, it should be addressed by tweaking daggers.

 

Infinite blocking plus damage reflection would also cause issues, plus you're already suggesting damage resistance.  Infinite running just provides the same bonus as the speed boost from 2d, so isn't really necessary.

 

And infinite channeling energy means you can too easily take advantage of mods that have -channeling efficiency as a downside.  Admittedly, most of those suck right now, but if we assume the devs are somewhat competent, they'll adjust them to be worth using.  At the very least, this would make Life Strike super easy to use.  Combined with the damage increase, you'd gain mass quantities of health, plus carve through enemies fast enough to be able to keep the ultimate up near full time.  You would want to reduce the cost of channeling, of course, otherwise it rather limits the usefulness of the ultimate, but I don't think you can flat out reduce it to 0 when there's Life Strike in the mix.

 

I personally don't feel the melee speed needs doubled, though I don't see an issue with making Stamina less of a problem so you can still afford to parry while keeping your damage up mid-battle. Stamina as it is right now still really is an issue that DE has only sloppily addressed with bandaid mods, which isn't much a surprise and I can't see it changing. 

 

However the goal of the Ult is to be striking down opponents, not redirecting their damage through infinite blocking, this ruins the point of amplifying melee damage. 

 

The Ultimate either needs a timer or a large continuous energy consumption so that it will end in a timely manner while still giving you ample time to do your team a solid and carve up the room. 

 

Agreed, reducing channeling cost to 0 is too much. Assuming Lifesteal and Corrupt Charge don't remain the only useful channeling inefficiency mods, I have no problem either way allowing them to eat up energy at reduced efficiency of the Ultimate saps your energy to remain active. 

[Axterix13]

Agreed, reducing channeling cost to 0 is too much. Assuming Lifesteal and Corrupt Charge don't remain the only useful channeling inefficiency mods, I have no problem either way allowing them to eat up energy at reduced efficiency of the Ultimate saps your energy to remain active.

Corrupt Charge is garbage, actually. You'll always use Killing Blow first, so using CC means you're ideally giving up your mod that has the second least impact on damage output. When I ran the numbers, I found that the loss of that mod translated to CC providing just a 0.6% increase in your DPS while channeling, while coming at a substantial cost of non-channeling damage. You'd need to channel over 93% of the time to consider using it, and even then, the gain is miniscule over not using it... and you're paying more energy. Edited April 17, 2014 by Axterix13

[Eyeless]

2) Radial Javelin. This is the one everyone's getting worked up about, correct? Well, here are my thoughts. Hastur, the numbers you initially provided were a little much, and I see that you'd edited your original post to tone it down a little, which I appreciate. And honestly, I like the concept of it. A melee based frame should have some sort of melee-based power. The ability to infinitely channel, block, and parry without costing anything? I'll take it! Increased damage, speed, and other attributes? Even better. But here's my thoughts.

2a) Instead of the 10x or 5x damage increase, I think 3x is a good idea. Double damage carrying a good melee weapon is already amazing, triple it and you've got an Ult.

2b) Increase melee attack speed by 2x. Tripling the damage of something like a Heat Dagger still isn't a lot of damage. We need to make it so this Ult helps more for the players that favor speed as well.

2c) Infinite channeling energy and blocking/running stamina. Again, helping out for making it a melee frame.

2d) Increased run speed and jump height. If you want to run melee, you need to be able to close the gap! This shouldn't be a power you only use when surrounded by Shield Lancers, it should be able to clear a room as well as any other Ult.

2e) List is getting pretty long. Damage RESISTANCE. Not immunity. We don't want this to be just a better version of Hysteria. I'm suggesting a 15%/25%/40% damage resistance amplifier. Like we're literally dodging bullets.

 

I'd post thoughts on the first half of your post but right now I'm too focused on the Radial Javelin proposal(s). I fully intend to give you more thoughts on this sometime later.

 

Onto the new Ultimate:

 

I agree on lowering the damage to x3 but not on the increase in swing speed. If daggers already fell behind, then as Axterix already put, it'll help them but other melees will still pull ahead all the farther. 

 

Infinite channeling is a bit much but I don't have too many qualms about removing Stamina consumption so Excalibur still has room to block, parry knockdowns/scorpions, and continue to sprint so he can close the gap if Slash Dashing isn't an option or more an over-compensation, since my idea for Slash Dash would allow you to turn every enemy hit landed into a combo as well, allowing perfect melee synergy. 

 

Perhaps it was misunderstood by others, but I had no intention of making my idea for his ultimate last indefinitely, I'd intended it to have a hard-set timer of somewhere near 20 seconds. Suppose I should have added that. 

 

However the issue with adding a timer in this manner while allowing him infinite channeling with all these bonuses, well, I suppose that would be excessive. I don't see an issue with adding channeling on-top of the 100 energy cost as well as a hard-set timer so long as it doesn't get out of hand. 

[Eyeless]

Corrupt Charge is garbage, actually. You'll always use Killing Blow first, so using CC means you're ideally giving up your mod that has the second least impact on damage output. When I ran the numbers, I found that the loss of that mod translated to CC providing just a 0.6% increase in your DPS while channeling, while coming at a substantial cost of non-channeling damage. You'd need to channel over 93% of the time to consider using it, and even then, the gain is miniscule over not using it... and you're paying more energy.

 

The gain is really that small? Even when stacked with Killing Blow? If that's the case, I'll make haste and remove it from my builds. I figured 220% additional channeling damage would really help further my channeling damage substantially. 

[Axterix13]

The gain is really that small? Even when stacked with Killing Blow? If that's the case, I'll make haste and remove it from my builds. I figured 220% additional channeling damage would really help further my channeling damage substantially. 

Yup.  With Killing Blow, you are at 110% bonus while channeling, so 2.1x damage.  CC brings that up to 160% or 2.6x damage, which is only an 23.8% increase.  But what you give up to get that will lower the base damage that multiplier is applied to, and that pretty much kills any and all reason to use it.  It's crap.

 

If I recall correctly, it boosted the charged hit DPS on a Dragon Kitana by something like 14 (on a hit around 2300) while lowering the regular hit DPS by around 200.

 

Edit: fixed a slight math issue.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Axterix13

[ArchonReach]

Doubling melee speed, coupled with triple damage, means 6x the damage.

I'll admit, I didn't think about that. My bad!

[Eyeless]

Yup.  With Killing Blow, you are at 110% bonus while channeling, so 2.1x damage.  CC brings that up to 135% or 2.35x damage, which is only an 12% increase.  But what you give up to get that will lower the base damage that multiplier is applied to, and that pretty much kills any and all reason to use it.  It's crap.

 

If I recall correctly, it boosted the charged hit on a Dragon Kitana by something like 14 (on a hit around 2300) while lowering the regular hits by around 200.

 

Wow, that is pretty lame. It's instances like this and with most of the mod problems in this game that make me wonder where all the thought goes, because these Corrupted mods only balance out on a few specific frames while turning others into a ridiculous 4 spamming mess such as Rhino or Nova. 

[Axterix13]

Wow, that is pretty lame. It's instances like this and with most of the mod problems in this game that make me wonder where all the thought goes, because these Corrupted mods only balance out on a few specific frames while turning others into a ridiculous 4 spamming mess such as Rhino or Nova. 

I think they've got some pretty good idea guys, but they're lacking the analytical/number crunching guy.  So they probably looked at it as taking 1.5 to 2, and that is worth taking a 40% hit to channeling efficiency.  You're doing 100% extra damage at a cost of 7, so 14% of base damage per point of energy, up from 10% from the norm (50% extra at a cost of 5).  Even with the drawback, it looks like a win (ignoring overkill).

 

But unfortunately, they neglected to consider opportunity cost.  We've got a finite number of mod slots and points, so using this means not using something else.  And then it isn't worth using, even if it didn't have the channeling efficiency drawback.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Axterix13

[Anunymau5]

This was general feedback, your original version was an OP version of Valkyr's ult. So we gave feedback saying it was OP.

[Eyeless]

This was general feedback, your original version was an OP version of Valkyr's ult. So we gave feedback saying it was OP.

 

I'd rather you not beat a long dead horse buddy. Yeah, I got the message the first 10 times people drove it into the ground, yet nothing else was added for the first several posts beyond people screaming it was overpowered.

 

Again, that's over and done with. When I have more time tonight I'm going to go back over and edit the OP taking into consideration everyone's viewpoints and proposals. 

 

In the meantime, why not give your own thoughts and ideas? Be it on how to improve the idea or your very own. Anything that doesn't involve keeping the standard Radial Javelin, because it just isn't doing the trick. 

[Eyeless]

Whew, long Easter Weekend. Edited the Radial Javelin changes to give more reasonable bonuses and disadvantages. 

[Tatersail]

have radial javelin give you a combo point for each target hit when use with a melee weapon.

 

or give it 100% pen

 

or have radial javelin.... use your melee weapon as its damage base (giggle)

 

or increase the damage to 2000 to match Ash

 

 

 

Slash dash does more damage than Hydroids 2, which cost double the energy? would that also see a fix?

its one of the few 1's thats AOE, and as a result does alot of damage, arguably the most damaging 1 in the game in many situations?

 

 

 

try posting this on the topic somebody started that lists change ideas for each frame https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-abilities-20-retune-all-the-frames-49-now-with-trinity/page-9

[Eyeless]

have radial javelin give you a combo point for each target hit when use with a melee weapon.

 

or give it 100% pen

 

or have radial javelin.... use your melee weapon as its damage base (giggle)

 

or increase the damage to 2000 to match Ash

 

 

 

Slash dash does more damage than Hydroids 2, which cost double the energy? would that also see a fix?

its one of the few 1's thats AOE, and as a result does alot of damage, arguably the most damaging 1 in the game in many situations?

 

 

 

try posting this on the topic somebody started that lists change ideas for each frame https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-abilities-20-retune-all-the-frames-49-now-with-trinity/page-9

 

Slash Dash is a mobility + damage ability. Tidal Surge is a mobility + CC ability that can knockdown rows of enemies. 

 

I'd much rather have my idea in its own thread people can read and then focus on. 

[VergilDT]

i'm liking the first idea, but the second is crazy OP, I would suggest keeping it the same as it can be an effective crowd dispersing panic button, and letting it benefit from a reasonably buffed channel multiplier

additionally i think it makes sense that all powers should get a reasonable boost when used while channeling.

[AntyYou]

i like the idea about Slash Dash, but about Radial Javelin not really sorry bro :(

[fatpig84]

Just giving radial javelin unlimited punch through will solve a lot of things.

As for Slash dash, let it rack combos.

 

That will be great for the hack and slash player with slow weapons since SD is still faster than galatine copter AND on hit, it add on to the combo meter.

[BlueSilkMetallic]

change existing skills ? plz no.

make a new frame with that set : yes why not :)

[Axterix13]

Been playing Excalibur a bit these last days.  Got to say that a melee related ultimate would be too much for him right now with his blind in the mix.  The bonus that provides is already huge, plus it benefits the entire team.  Even level 40-50 bombards and Napalms go down so fast, and I don't bother with Channeling at all.

 

Based on that, I'd say even a straight up 2x damage multiplier (taking the 1.5x to 3x) would be way too much if it makes channeling essentially free (without any -Channeling Efficiency).  At most, a 100% Channeling damage boost might be acceptable (taking the 1.5x to 2x).

Edited April 21, 2014 by Axterix13

[Thaumatos]

change existing skills ? plz no.

make a new frame with that set : yes why not :)

Do MOAR work DE!!  MOAR!!  You haven't done enough for me!!

[Eyeless]

i like the idea about Slash Dash, but about Radial Javelin not really sorry bro :(

 

i like the idea about Slash Dash, but about Radial Javelin not really sorry bro :(

 

Hey no worries. I'm not expecting everyone to hop on board with me and storm DE's office to make it happen.

 

 

Just giving radial javelin unlimited punch through will solve a lot of things.

As for Slash dash, let it rack combos.

 

That will be great for the hack and slash player with slow weapons since SD is still faster than galatine copter AND on hit, it add on to the combo meter.

 

Adding Punch Through would help Radial Javelin with lower level crowds but not with its scaling. It may be impressive as a flat damage skill yet that's all it is when it comes down to it. A flat damage skill with no utility and thus utterly useless at later levels a lot of players like to go to. 

 

Racking combos would do a lot of good for Slash Dash, I agree with that entirely. Even just that would help improve the ability to be more feasible as a damage dealer, which is what I think DE had intended Slash Dash to be in the beginning until enemy scaling made it too weak. 

 

It's the main reason I thought it'd be a good idea to let Slash Dash take your melee weapon into account like it seems like it was intended for. 

 

change existing skills ? plz no.

make a new frame with that set : yes why not :)

 

Seems a bit unnecessary  when you can simply improve a Frame and bring them more in-line with their role. 

 

Been playing Excalibur a bit these last days.  Got to say that a melee related ultimate would be too much for him right now with his blind in the mix.  The bonus that provides is already huge, plus it benefits the entire team.  Even level 40-50 bombards and Napalms go down so fast, and I don't bother with Channeling at all.

 

Based on that, I'd say even a straight up 2x damage multiplier (taking the 1.5x to 3x) would be way too much if it makes channeling essentially free (without any -Channeling Efficiency).  At most, a 100% Channeling damage boost might be acceptable (taking the 1.5x to 2x).

 

Hmm... Considering that, I suppose. Yet coming out of Ceres survivals with the squad barely intact (Grineer seem to do way more damage there than anywhere else except lvl 30's on Interceptions) I personally would have to insist on keeping the 3x damage multiplier so he'd still maintain steam at the 35 minute marker. 

 

I'm glad you've been giving Excal some attention, if you don't agree with me on some things that's totally okay, maybe now though you'll see where I'm coming from with some of these changes, 

[Axterix13]

Hmm... Considering that, I suppose. Yet coming out of Ceres survivals with the squad barely intact (Grineer seem to do way more damage there than anywhere else except lvl 30's on Interceptions) I personally would have to insist on keeping the 3x damage multiplier so he'd still maintain steam at the 35 minute marker. 

 

I'm glad you've been giving Excal some attention, if you don't agree with me on some things that's totally okay, maybe now though you'll see where I'm coming from with some of these changes, 

To be honest, all I really see is what I already knew: the blind is his best ability and that the ability to close on mobs is melee's biggest issue.

 

I've been to the 35m marker, and I can't say it really slows down any more than it normally would, and overall, a bit less than a gun focused build.  At that point, ammo usually starts to become a problem with a gun build, meaning you've got to pack something like an Ammo Scavenger mod (which should be enough to let you go an extra 20m), but melee doesn't use ammo, so I can keep carving.  And if melee needs some aura support at that point, such as Steel Charge or Corrosive Projection, that would seem pretty fair.  Of course, at that point, enemies start gaining levels much more rapidly, which means more rapidly scaling hp, so obviously time to kill will increase.  But there's a reason for that: the devs don't want us being able to go much beyond that easily.  Between that and the rapid scaling meaning you would need pretty crazy increases to be able to kill quickly, ones that would trivialize other things, still have to say that nope, even a straight up 2x would be too much.

 

As to how intact the squad is, I've noticed one thing in that regard: those that drop are the ones that aren't in my area.  Stay close enough to the Excalibur if you want to live.

 

So basically, as far as survival and damage increases go, Radial Blind does the job and it does it so well that, for Excal's ultimate to do similar stuff, would either make Excal severely overpowered or turn his #4 into something that most people wouldn't consider an ultimate... just a movement speed buff.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Axterix13

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

In my eyes excalibur is way better than all of those frames, except for trinity and arguably vauban (on survival).