Eclipse Goals/policy (As Understood By A Random Member)

[Somedude1000]

Dude i dont mind any of these taxes, but this promotion everywhere really has to stop, coz its distracting people from the real problems in the game 

 

i.e.  If everyones out here complaining bout the battlepay etc, no one has time to report bugs or farming problems or something along those lines

[tgipier]

But do they steal your orokin cells ? D:

I don't need o cells.

[tgipier]

We would -love- to be able to check that for ourselves. But since you seem to be unaware dark sectors are in a -very- alpha-ish implementation meaning there are no tools to see how much we get from what income wise.

Convenient, isn't it? You could check the vault for total credits.

[Worira]

No because I'm trying to make a point that battle pay is one of those "Operational costs" just like employees in a real life business are part of the cost of running it.

 

Operation Miss The Point is in full swing, I see.

[stax496]

Well you can use this equation. rail tax income =((changes in guild vault over a week) - contributions). throw in a few screenshots too.

Just because some clans steal resources (e.g. orokin cells) does not make it right to charge 25% tax

[stax496]

can you tell us shortly what your point is?

[Squig]

Well you can use this equation. rail tax income =((changes in guild vault over a week) - contributions). throw in a few screenshots too.

Just because some clans steal resources (e.g. orokin cells) does not make it right to charge 25% tax

You're failing to understand, it just throws -everything- into the vault.There is no list of what was donated what came from where, who ran what. It's like laundered money you have -no- idea where the hell it came from.

[stax496]

Well you could theoretically have your members submit a screenshot to your respective alliance treasurers each time they contribute so they can keep track of it?

Edited May 1, 2014 by jdormbandit3

[Retrikaethan]

-snip-

 

3. Oh, a note on the so-called "battlepay scams" some people (somewhat understandably) accuse variances alliances and clans of engaging in:

I've heard a few posts about players being upset and not receiving battlepay, which was a bit surprising - but it seems the problem is with the system DE set up. Battlepay is allotted to the first players that complete a mission, for a set amount of times. So, if you set 30k battlepay for 5000 times, then only the first 5000 get that battlepay. When the first 5000 people finish that mission, anyone still in a mission isn't able to get the pay since they didn't complete it fast enough, which is an annoying way to allot it. I'm fairly sure higher-ups have sent messages to DE representatives, and posted on the forums about this, but the system really needs to be changed to battlepay is allotted the second you start a mission. That way, so long as you complete the mission, you're ensured of the payout. Honestly, that doesn't seem too hard a system to set up. :/

 

-snip-

i accuse them of abusing this because of the repeated and rapid loss of battle pay. if they wanted to give us money, they would have allotted more total runs. therefore, i must assume everyone utilizing the practice does so knowing many of their supporters won't get paid. of course, they might not be doing this anymore. i really don't care enough to confirm or deny it at this point since i already know they did it early on.

[Squig]

Well you could theoretically have your members submit a screenshot to your respective alliance treasurers each time they contribute so they can keep track of it?

Theoretically yes? But you also would need them to literally tell you how much of any dark sector runs they did, -when and where- they did them (Taxes can be changed after all). It's just not practical

 

i accuse them of abusing this because of the repeated and rapid loss of battle pay. if they wanted to give us money, they would have allotted more total runs. therefore, i must assume everyone utilizing the practice does so knowing many of their supporters won't get paid. of course, they might not be doing this anymore. i really don't care enough to confirm or deny it at this point since i already know they did it early on.

In short you aren't really interested in fact checking at all. If you want an example of severe battle pay fraud take a look at what TW did against eclipse.

 

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d1e007c56fc79b7b23c9_1398736764

Edited May 1, 2014 by Squig

[Executor_Aeternus]

To even think that the first to deploy on a position wouldnt get a free pass to owning it is completely naive.

We understood the likelihood of fair costs, and we have done all we could to respond the costs effectively. Nowhere have I stated we somehow expected not to be attacked, or some other foolishness.

Had you assisted the defender against someone else rather than attack them it would have achieved the same result as you say you wanted without you 'needing' to conquer it yourself...

If you noticed, the first deployment of rails didn't actually contest anything. Simply whoever deployed first on a given node gained said location.

 

 

Keep in mind here Eclipse assulted Sechura that had proven they could defend (SoV won every battle before Eclipse's assult), making your argument moot.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. SoV had lost all their other nodes and apparently only won by misplaced aggression against us (although, as battlepay demonstrates on deathsnacks, you can clearly see we had no desire to take the node from the outset.) I might go so far as to say by not even actively threatening or attacking their position, we assisted in their defense instead of allowing some more active opponent to take their offensive against them. Sadly, if their epic victory there only came because of misplaced hate against us instead of some desire to protect an alliance that sacrificed for you, fought for you thanklessly and held true to 0% taxation, if you didn't help to preserve your own honor and at least try to protect the last of your territories, I feel horrible for them that the community would abandon them so terribly.

 

Remind me, how many people run the popular mat farming dark sector eciplse so happen to hold. You only speak of expenses, never speak of income.

Your rail tax income isn't shown nor who earns your battlepay.

That's true. However, I feel like I ought to mention that there's literally no reason to be "greedy" for these credits. What are we going to do with them? Swim in them? They're basically only useful for solar rail repairs and battlepay. Even if we could allot the credits to an alliance, we can't pay them out to individuals. Many here seem to labor under the misunderstanding we're somehow getting rich off of you all. No, we're not. Heck, we set our own tax to 75% to help cut costs! Does that sound like a group somehow maliciously devoted to stealing from the very community, from other Tenno? What kind of horrible, depraved people do you take us for? We sacrifice for you, grind out crappy missions to keep those places free, and endure seemingly endless hatred despite all we do. Nonetheless, we will carry on and continue to reach out our hand, to support you all, to fight for the good of all Tenno. Even through all the hatred, the lies, the hypocrisy and vitriol, we'll be here for you Tenno. We will continue to listen to the community, to extend our hand to those in need, and we will do all we can to defend your right to access the solar rails.

[stax496]

It doesnt matter how many/where/when dark sectors runs have been made nor even if the tax is consistent. what we need to know is that income (guild vault changes - contributions proven via screenshots sent to respective clan treasurers and then shown to public) - Expenses (rail upkeep + battlepay wages) = 0 credits.

this is all given the fact that battlepay has remained consistent through the course of any conflict unlike what tw has done. Does it mean tw alliance has been having its leaders take money out of the clan?

[Retrikaethan]

 

In short you aren't really interested in fact checking at all. If you want an example of severe battle pay fraud take a look at what TW did against eclipse.

 

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d1e007c56fc79b7b23c9_1398736764

 

i heard about that. F*** them too, im not interested in determining their current validity, i will avoid their nodes regardless of it, i simply wanted to throw a bit of me into this. fact of the matter is, only the guy who was assigning the battlepays at the time could have said whether or not he/she was doing it intentionally or not and obviously, unless the person in question is stupidly honest or if it is actually the case, they will say they did not do it intentionally. i came here to post as i do other threads, it popped up at the surface. if i saw a TW rage thread id be posting there instead of here. eclipse is simply the poster child for this particular abuse, legitimately or not.

 

oh. an addendum, i already know they practiced something similar to abusing this issue early on for sinai, jupiter since i was one of those people they didnt pay (not that the other side was paying either. some russian clan i can't remember the name of)

Edited May 1, 2014 by Retrikaethan

[Executor_Aeternus]

i accuse them of abusing this because of the repeated and rapid loss of battle pay. if they wanted to give us money, they would have allotted more total runs. therefore, i must assume everyone utilizing the practice does so knowing many of their supporters won't get paid. of course, they might not be doing this anymore. i really don't care enough to confirm or deny it at this point since i already know they did it early on.

Here's an example of a battlepay graph. You can clearly see we never "bait and switched" - but go ahead and take a gander at examples of other graphs to prove my point.

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d1e106c56f853e7b23e8_1398598682

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d2f407c56f699c7b23d2_1398705498

Here's an example of an alliance using bait and switch for comparison:

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d20d07c56f4d997b2466_1398670233

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d20d07c56f4d997b2466_1398059086

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d1e106c56f853e7b23e8_1398059087

Retrikaethan, I'm sorry to hear you didn't recieve battlepay for a mission on Jupiter, Sinai, but I guarantee we used no such tactic there in any way intentionally. Early on we were very competitive, as seen here:

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d22406c56fa93d7b242a_1397836222

But when we learned setting under 1000 tickets could lead to some players losing battlepay due to poor setups, we slowly changed policy until we found the method best for the community.

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d22406c56fa93d7b242a_1398095574

We began using larger swathes of battlepay, as seen above, and started increasing that policy (as below):

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d22406c56fa93d7b242a_1398299435

Eventually, we learned about how we could set tickets without causing problems for many players:

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d22406c56fa93d7b242a_1398602845

Unfortunately, the game still only distributes players' credits at mission complete, instead of holding them for players when they enter and passing them to players when they complete the mission. We've asked around and made posts about it, and we've heard that DE is looking into a fix for this issue, which is good news.

 

It doesnt matter how many/where/when dark sectors runs have been made nor even if the tax is consistent. what we need to know is that income (guild vault changes - contributions proven via screenshots sent to respective clan treasurers and then shown to public) - Expenses (rail upkeep + battlepay wages) = 0 credits.

Honestly, I'm a little offended that we specifically are being singled out for some ridiculous audit that the game doesn't even let us do. We are given no sort of notification when credits come in, nor from what node they come in from, nor from what players. There's no way to track income at all; we only know how much we have at some given moment. Anyway, it would be total foolishness to totally cancel out our gains. To not keep a buffer to pay for attacks in the case of Dark Sector runs slacking off would be entirely irresponsible.

Edited May 1, 2014 by LordGreymantle

[stax496]

Theoretically you could do what tw has done and dole out battlepay to individuals by raising battlepay for a tiny amount of runs but that would be unethical and there would be no way to prove you guys are doing this IN THEORY.

 

I would like to see a screenshot of your claim to 75% tax on your own members.
 

credits can be used to fuse mods of the same polarity thus saving a lot of fusion mods and ranking difficult to rank mods e.g. (high lvl serration etc)

[ZechsX18999]

In short, Eclipse is mostly just giving excuses for their high taxes.

 

To counter Eclipse's excuses:

 

1. Conflicts now happen at different times, so there is always a different node you can farm on. If a node is in conflict, just play on a different one that isn't.

 

2. Conflicts now only last 12 hours, which is barely anything especially considering you can just go to a different Dark Sector node or play in the void during this time.

 

3.Eclipse has their tax at 25% with the reasoning that they can resolve their conflicts quickly. Let's assume the extreme that Eclipse can keep their sector open 100% of the time at a 25% tax rate. I'd much prefer a sector that is open 80% of the time at a 0% tax rate. 

[PhotriusPyrelus]

In short, Eclipse is mostly just giving excuses for their high taxes.

 

To counter Eclipse's excuses:

 

1. Conflicts now happen at different times, so there is always a different node you can farm on. If a node is in conflict, just play on a different one that isn't.

 

2. Conflicts now only last 12 hours, which is barely anything especially considering you can just go to a different Dark Sector node or play in the void during this time.

 

3.Eclipse has their tax at 25% with the reasoning that they can resolve their conflicts quickly. Let's assume the extreme that Eclipse can keep their sector open 100% of the time at a 25% tax rate. I'd much prefer a sector that is open 80% of the time at a 0% tax rate. 

What a gloriously succinct dispatching of all of Eclipse's excuses for their ridiculout taxes.

[Retrikaethan]

Here's an example of a battlepay graph. You can clearly see we never "bait and switched" - but go ahead and take a gander at examples of other graphs to prove my point.

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d1e106c56f853e7b23e8_1398598682

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d2f407c56f699c7b23d2_1398705498

Here's an example of an alliance using bait and switch for comparison:

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d20d07c56f4d997b2466_1398670233

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d20d07c56f4d997b2466_1398059086

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d1e106c56f853e7b23e8_1398059087

i think all of you have failed to read "currently" on my posts. yeah, they seem to not be @(*()$ anyone over anymore, tribute to their tributes on, what? 8 rails was it? i'm talking about the first days, before deathsnacks existed. your examples are what, 2-3 days old? bit over a week for those abuses? i am talking weeks. get on the same page please so the discussion we have can actually mean something. this is like me having watched a murder and then everyone i encounter telling me they're innocent. its completely ridiculous.

[stax496]

lord greymantle that is quite an impressive post. i salute you you havent won me over since you havent proven that your income-expenses=0 but it's definitely changed my immpression of you guys slightly. but can you please reply to my post regarding 75% tax for your members and 0 profit, i dont know how to quote using forums yet 

Edited May 1, 2014 by jdormbandit3

[Squig]

i think all of you have failed to read "currently" on my posts. yeah, they seem to not be @(*()$ anyone over anymore, tribute to their tributes on, what? 8 rails was it? i'm talking about the first days, before deathsnacks existed. your examples are what, 2-3 days old? bit over a week for those abuses? i am talking weeks. get on the same page please so the discussion we have can actually mean something. this is like me having watched a murder and then everyone i encounter telling me they're innocent. its completely ridiculous.

The old one you keep talking about on Sinai was spiking back and forth and can be seen at.

 

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d22406c56fa93d7b242a_1397598659

 

As the graph will show you there was a battlepay race/conflict to not be paying less. Which led to many not getting paid unfortunately.

[Executor_Aeternus]

1. Conflicts now happen at different times, so there is always a different node you can farm on. If a node is in conflict, just play on a different one that isn't.

Which, I suppose, is all well and good for you if you don't mind leaving the owners of solar rails out to dry and abandoning them.

 

2. Conflicts now only last 12 hours, which is barely anything especially considering you can just go to a different Dark Sector node or play in the void during this time.

Which, still, doesn't suggest how owners of solar rails can expect in any way to gain defenders for their rail, which is precisely why we offer battlepay as incentive.

 

3.Eclipse has their tax at 25% with the reasoning that they can resolve their conflicts quickly. Let's assume the extreme that Eclipse can keep their sector open 100% of the time at a 25% tax rate. I'd much prefer a sector that is open 80% of the time at a 0% tax rate. 

Yes, so would I... except for the fact 0% tax rails seem to be inevitably failing, with the exception of one owned by SoV which we discussed earlier, and the valiant efforts of clan GhostBear - although even with many players' support, I'm not sure how long they can fund the repairs. Well, they have my support nonetheless.

 

lord greymantle that is quite an impressive post. i salute you you havent won me over since you havent proven that your income-expenses=0 but it's definitely changed my immpression of you guys slightly. but can you please reply to my post regarding 75% tax for your members and 0 profit, i dont know how to quote using forums yet 

I'm not sure I have a picture of that, although someone might. Honestly, it rather annoyed most of our members since despite spending hours running missions (before the difficulty was lowered), we were taxed higher than the public and still had to pay repairs. There was no incentive for us to protect our own rails at that tax rate except for due to our desire to help support you all.

Edited May 1, 2014 by LordGreymantle

[tgipier]

Credits are very useful. It makes perfect sense to stockpile credits in hope at a later time you can transferor project funding etc. And please cut sob story out, both of us know eclipses is benefitting largely from their victories.

[Retrikaethan]

The old one you keep talking about on Sinai was spiking back and forth and can be seen at.

 

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d22406c56fa93d7b242a_1397598659

 

As the graph will show you there was a battlepay race/conflict to not be paying less. Which led to many not getting paid unfortunately.

oh goodie! it did exist. that S#&$ right there. that's the S#&$ that's not ok. how do we fix it.

[Hadronox]

No shame for being aggressive or taking over territories. But having a terrible excuse for it is. If you want good PR, at least try. Instead of using just poor reason for it. . I mean, seriously, if you want do PR, do a good job at it. A poor PR is worse then no PR.

Ofcourse there is, providing if Eclipse hold over the majority of territories or even all.

In short, bad PR is just worse then no PR. Dont bother if you are not even gonna try,

I did not start this thread, and I did not apologize for or defend anyone lol. I care less about PR and none of my posts were about that. I simply said the word "monopoly" does not apply to Dark Sectors because there is no monopoly of anything. And, I said that imo there is no "defend 0% tax" principle.

Did you even read anything I wrote or do you just like to throw wild accusations around? Just stop that asinine attitude please. Also, why so mad about a game?

Edited May 1, 2014 by Hadronox

[koopagon]

im sorry but all i see in game is eclipse moving to take over more rails and bolstering this with a somewhat hefty tax rate. even if you only get tributes from the credits we pick up, all i see is pandering to the masses with large battle pays that last for a short time to deal large chunks of damage to opponents and propaganda telling players they are their only salvation.

 

until i see you guys not acting like politicians, i have no reason to fight for you.

 

 

 

Actions speak louder than words, tenno.