The Pro's And Con's Of Pvp

[Caelum-Warblade]

Alright, this is a major topic so so many players have been griping about and grinning at the thought of it somehow being in the game as a functional mode. This concept and idea for PvP is wonderful, yet a huge amount of work. Firstly, this post will just base what I think can be good and bad about PvP, I may leave a few thing's out so I can stick to the main thing. I will go into a little bit of depth on each after I list them, but this is biased on what I think, and you are welcome to disagree with me if you feel I am wrong, but please remain respectful. Also, note on the FAQ's they never denied the possibility of adding PvP, they simply said they wanted to focus on PvE for now and other mechanics pertaining to the current game state.

Pro's

- Amazing replayability to the game

- More marketability for the game due to the extra feature

- Potentially more moves and abilities added to allow even more dynamic combat

- Special new PvP maps could be created due to the feature

- Chance to have a secondary level for special items or skins in pvp (aka Tenno Battle Skill)

- A third economy of points accumulated by pvping for a set core of pvp lovers

- More advanced system to register the movements and impacts of warframes and abilities that affect others would be created

- Special retaliation missions could be created for Tenno vs Tenno action while still having a core objective for both sides

- Ability to expand lore, and story to create a dynamic feel to the universe

- More dedicated servers for the actual game

- Character Customizing??

- More player interactions and team building

- Tournaments

Con's

- Decreased focus on PvE content

- Paying to win on the leaderboards could work

- Huge focus on balancing warframes, mods, weapons, and various other items would consume time

- Massive bug fixes and testing (another alpha, beta test for those projects)

- Cost of development for the new systems takes funding away from other projects

- Less expansive area's (?)

Alright, so thats what I can think of, obviously I listed more for Pro's because I love PvP, and I think it would be a great implementation to the game, however the downfalls can be just as bad as the benefit can be good.

The Good

- Amazing replayability to the game

1. the biggest thing is that PvP is exciting, very dynamic, and replayable. On average, people probably wouldn't be quitting the game as early with this feature. Though this game relies on a strong set of fans to play the game, and support it (that means by paying), having a PvP can keep players around longer, which can cause them to spend more too. (win, win)

- More marketability for the game due to the extra feature

2. its apparent that the mainstream for fps games, has almost always included PvP definitely meaning that the game would be more marketable due to the extra feature. A huge fanbase of this game already want's PvP, but advertising the type of combat in Warframe that you get vs AI's is limited. I can just imagine warframes wall running and shooting enemy players in an open room, and doing backflips off of walls to get behind someone for a backstab... awesome :D.

- Potentially more moves and abilities added to allow even more dynamic combat

3. the amount of dynamics that can be added to the game to enhance the styles of play for players can be greatly increased with PvP, allowing a wide variety of boons to combat loving PvEers to enjoy. I'd love to see the ability to chop bosses apart, and to see parts flying, giving that lust for combat a bit more fulfillment with the realism + crazy badass ninja kung fu fighting & gunning.

- Special new PvP maps could be created due to the feature

4. It's awesome to have specific environments for PvPers and those can be recycled and implemented into a procedural mission generation environment by combining rooms in a variety of ways (which would be awesome and refreshing instead of just spawning on a certain point of the map with certain doors locked and others unlocked). But also, having an environment that utilizes the special movement abilities of the Tenno, can lead to some wacky, challenging, and stimulating environments.

- Chance to have a secondary level for special items or skins in pvp (aka Tenno Battle Skill)

5. As stated earlier the pvp can give an increase profit to the game. Having a secondary level [besides warframe rank, and overall tenno level) can give players several more hours of content to enjoy with cool abilities to unlock (perhaps the return of a tech tree that develops as you level and can be respec’ed for a match (adding huge amounts of content to a match)]. Not to mention having the ability for pvp related items or bonus (within reason and not overpowering anyone) (exp gain increase would be something more fair) the game could profit off of. Having special warframe skins for pvpers could encourage both styles of play to enjoy the overall game

- A third economy of points accumulated by pvping for a set core of pvp lovers

6. Having another economy feeds the player's that want to be immersed in a world of carnage, chaos, and fighting, a chance to use it to buy new warframes for PvP (depending on the direction taken for this feature)

- More advanced system to register the movements and impacts of warframes and abilities that affect others would be created

7. The addition of a more complex system allowing better, more fluid combat within the gameplay style for both pvp and pve.

- Special retaliation missions could be created for Tenno vs Tenno action while still having a core objective for both sides

8. The ability to combine PvE, and PvP can lead to a brillient, and beautiful style of gameplay that creates difficult, rewarding, and fun missions for a game. Having maybe one or two antagonist mercenary tenno fighting against the protagonist tenno while having the assistance of a PvE enemy could cause a great, fun style of play for both sides that can be suprising, and devestatingly, earth shatteringly cool.

- Ability to expand lore, and story to create a dynamic feel to the universe

9. Having inner conflict between a species is allways common, and can reflect how the Tenno have their flaws and have some past problems, causing new personal issues that can interest hardcore lore hungry players. (like icing on the cake that is warframe) (P.S. this doesn't mean create an enemy Tenno, because in war, noone is right, and everyone is motivated by the gain for both themselves, and their allies, a mercenary is a perfect fit for this).

- More dedicated servers for the actual game

10. As of right now, I'm not certain on the strength of the servers that are being used to run Warframe, but I'd imagine they arn't top notch and can be improved. This PvP system would be another motivation for why to run it on stronger, more dedicated servers, allowing more than just 4 player co op

- Character Customizing??

11. I don't know about you all, but I love being able to change my guy, add a bit of a twist to his armor, or change more than just his helmet. I noticed a recycled part on both Rhino and Volt that was just recycled (yes its the lower abdomin area, laugh it up). But being able to tweak and add to characters is just player service and makes me love the game that much more. I also like being able to decide my warframes gender. I'd love to be able to play a Male Mag, or a female Ash etc etc because of the emersion feeling.

- More player interactions and team building

12. PvP is a great use for clans and team building gameplay. It can also create communities full of passionate players with tons of feedback.

- Tournaments

13. This game, if evened out for warframes, can be very tactical, and so to have organized tournaments could both get the game sponsors, and huge news in the gaming industry. Wicked.

The Bad

- Decreased focus on PvE content

1. The pure enjoyment some players only feel in games, is the PvE and potentially co-op. Having PvP could cause huge distraction from the central reason this game exists.. awesome PvE gameplay. I want more maps, more missions, and events. With PvP it would slow those thing's down.

- Paying to win on the leaderboards could work

2. If not checked and balanced, buying a warframe, and weapons could easily give a player an early edge to PvP, which isn't a permenent problem. But it would discourage players from enjoying a PvP aspect, unless they had plenty of experience with PvE, and some players would only be there for the PvP so that could create trouble.

- Huge focus on balancing warframes, mods, weapons, and various other items would consume time

3. There is a huge amount that is apparent in Warframe, and that is that some warframes arn't as strong as others, and frankly, some would get torn limb from limb going up against others. Ash's 4th ability to telepot and do mass damage to enemies would be a huge problem in battle and could cause frustration with people screaming for it to get nerfed or there to be more powerful warframes.

- Massive bug fixes and testing (another alpha, beta test for those projects)

4. Obviously this would take a huge amount of time, and testing to impliment which could majorly slow down progress and feature additions to the game. Plus the game would most definetly have a leap in system requirements.

- Cost of development for the new systems takes funding away from other projects

5. This has been beaten to death by people on council chat, and I know all too well how true it is. It really would take too much funding from PvE for it to be profitable at this point so early on into the game.

- Less expansive/dynamic missions, enemies, weapons & warframes (?)

6. So what I mean by this, is on missions, random events sometimes happen out of various possibilites, changing your objectives. Well, with the decrease in dedication through time, people, and money, there would be a lack of different environments, mobs, weapons, warframes, and overall game. Which, can be changed with enough time, people and money. But to expect a game this early on to have enough to support this expansive idea, is rediculous.

In conclusion, I think that the addition of a PvP would be an immense benefit to the game in a future endeavor. But as of right now, give us more maps, more events, more mobs, more warframes, more weapons, more mods, more warframe.

Thanks for reading! :D

Zeref

Edited April 4, 2013 by Zeref_Icarus

[GrimCerberus]

I'd love to read it, but the text is really hard to see.

[Caelum-Warblade]

Yea, sorry about that, I tried fixing it but I'm not certain how to. D: It appears all white for me

[Blatantfool]

Use the searchbar. There are a million threads about PvP.

There wont be PvP for a long time, if at all. All discussion about that is basically moot point since no one knows how much Warframe will change between then and now.

Warframe is a primarily PvE game and the developers are dedicated to completing the PvE experience before experimenting at all with a PvP experience.

[GrimCerberus]

Use the searchbar. There are a million threads about PvP.

There wont be PvP for a long time, if at all. All discussion about that is basically moot point since no one knows how much Warframe will change between then and now.

Warframe is a primarily PvE game and the developers are dedicated to completing the PvE experience before experimenting at all with a PvP experience.

I agree that the focus is PvE and it's doubtful that we'll see PvP any time soon, if ever. But I haven't seen a presentation of the pros and cons quite this detailed yet and I think having a discussion about it, even if it's purely academic, wouldn't be a bad idea. It can be thought provoking after all.

If there's another thread with an OP this detailed, I'd like to see it.

[Blatantfool]

I agree that the focus is PvE and it's doubtful that we'll see PvP any time soon, if ever. But I haven't seen a presentation of the pros and cons quite this detailed yet and I think having a discussion about it, even if it's purely academic, wouldn't be a bad idea. It can be thought provoking after all.

If there's another thread with an OP this detailed, I'd like to see it.

There is a searchbar.

I know your intention is fine and all - but PvP conversation isn't something that tends to go over well on these forums. People have a hard time seperating opinions from facts and needs from wants whenever it comes to this.

His OP can be all fancy and detailed - this is STILL the millionth PvP thread and there STILL didn't have to be another thread about a topic the Developers have said is a moot point.

[kiwicanfly]

@.@ massize wall of text.

^bump

[HellGrind]

Well... I read it.

And to be honest I think you've summed up alot of the pros and cons quite nicely. Better than most other threads regarding PvP at least. I agree completely that this game needs PvP to maintain a substantial long-term player base. I'm sure there will be plenty of zealots to claim otherwise, but fact of the matter is only the very dedicated core of players will stick around for a long time with only PvE, and I think that's a waste of the great potential this game has.

There wont be PvP for a long time.

Yes I think we're all well aware of this, but it can't hurt to discuss it early on can it, especially considering the fact that this is the direction the game eventually needs to go in and it will be a huge undertaking to get it right.

The big issues as you've said are Pay to Win and balancing of Frames/Weapons/Powers. There will have to be some big adjustments to the ways Frames utilise powers if we're looking at a PvP scenario. However I think if the devs took a look at how Dark Souls approached its PvP arena gamemodes this could give them some great ideas as to how to implement a similiar mode in Warframe. The combination of an in-depth melee system and magic in Dark Souls is quite easily comparable to Warframe, and of course it's hella fun. My first thought would probably have to be the removal of Ultimates altogether, because as you've said Ash's Blade Storm is a great example of how ridiculous they can get. However with tweaking and perhaps implementation of a cooldown system between casting powers, most other abilities should be ok. As for instances where we're talking about one Frame annihilating another in 1v1, the answer is simple; don't have 1v1. I think 4v4 would be great as it's a number we're all used to and doesn't create huge matches. Yet it still allows for a variety of Frames to come into play in interesting ways, and means that Frames like Trinity and Loki despite lacking overtly offensive abilities, are able to compete in an effective supporting role.

Obviously this is all just very preliminary thoughts, but I'd love to see more constructive ideas in this thread, as opposed to the typical 'No PvP Period' useless responses these posts often get. Very brave of you OP, I commend you sir!

[Xtorma]

I have never played a game that began as pve, and was able to create a balanced pvp environment afterward. PVE games that try to go pvp end up in an endless cycle of buff/ nerf FOTM class merry-go-rounds.

[Blatantfool]

Yes I think we're all well aware of this, but it can't hurt to discuss it early on can it, especially considering the fact that this is the direction the game eventually needs to go in and it will be a huge undertaking to get it right.

This is your opinion - not a fact.

It doesn't have to go anywhere DE doesn't want to take it. There is no neccessity. DE builds Warframe to be the experience THEY want it to be using player feedback to make it the best version of that vision it can be. Then the people interesting in playing it stay and the players who aren't leave.

And you are right. Warframe has a long way to go to manage PvP.

The reason it is a moot point talking about it now is simple - We don't know how Warframe will play in a month, let alone a year or better. We can't possibly know how different the game may feel by the time they are ready to try PvP.

Because of the inability to guess where development will actually take the game any suggestions for PvP based on the game as it is now may not even be valid by then.

The conversation just doesn't lead anywhere. Showing support for it doesn't particularly matter either - DE has long since been made aware. If, when they finish the PvE enough to consider PvP, there is still some interest then they'll probably take that route.

[BlueWhistler]

Warframe doesn't have to go the traditional PvP route. Such an endeavour, after DE completes the PvE content, would be enormous & difficult. It would also have the effect of changing the PvE.

What DE could do, which I believe is easier, is go the route of PvP-Lite :) Why not do something like Left for Dead? Instead of warframes vs warframes, just allow players to play as one of the many PvE antagonsts in the Warframe universe. Have the the powers & abilities of these antagonists balanced, set, & not upgradeable. Have missions where other players can join to be the "enemy" and play one of the many mobs.

No need to do massive balancing with mods, powers, frames...etc. And you have a PvP element with players getting to play more than just a warframe...now they get to play one of the many bad guys :)

[TheSuperTaco]

quit trying to be so freindly and creative about PvP. no PvP, READ THE FAQ! the game devs are focusing on other ways of competing. PvP gets old after a bit

[Dasmir]

Trust me the game is really TOO FAAAAAAAAAR to have a pvp system.

[Blatantfool]

quit trying to be so freindly and creative about PvP. no PvP, READ THE FAQ! the game devs are focusing on other ways of competing. PvP gets old after a bit

The FAQ doesn't say 'No PvP'.

It says 'No time soon'.

Not the same thing.

[shoudra]

One major reason why PVP shouldn't even be considered yet aside from bugs/story/lore:

1) The game is not run completely on servers it's P2P right now. Which makes some games miserable. To even thing about PVP the game will have to be a massive success to get it into the budget

Edited April 4, 2013 by shoudra

[HellGrind]

This is your opinion - not a fact.

It doesn't have to go anywhere DE doesn't want to take it. There is no neccessity. DE builds Warframe to be the experience THEY want it to be using player feedback to make it the best version of that vision it can be. Then the people interesting in playing it stay and the players who aren't leave.

All absolutely true. However there does need to be a balance between their 'vision' of what the game should be, and what players want to play. Otherwise nobody would play it... And it is my opinion that this game will not last without PvP, OR a MASSIVE injection of content that increases replayability and reduces monotony. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I really do enjoy the game as it is, but I can't see the game hanging on to players if this is all it offers.

The reason it is a moot point talking about it now is simple - We don't know how Warframe will play in a month, let alone a year or better.

But that doesn't make sense. We're beta testing... That would be like saying "oh don't worry about these bugs, or these issues with gameplay or UI, we don't know how it will be in a month or a year, they'll probably have fixed it by then". PvP is another aspect of the game that SHOULD be discussed as it could be a huge improvement on what is currently there, and without our feedback which DE obviously values, they would have a harder time of thinking of ALL the things that go into it. We're trying to help them, not create more problems.

quit trying to be so freindly and creative about PvP. no PvP, READ THE FAQ! the game devs are focusing on other ways of competing. PvP gets old after a bit

Friendly? The PvP discussion is far from friendly. And as far as that goes, there is every possibility PvP may be implemented down the line. Watch some of the livestreams and try to post something useful next time.

One major reason why PVP shouldn't even be considered yet aside from bugs/story/lore:

1) The game is not run completely on servers it's P2P right now. Which makes some games miserable. To even thing about PVP the game will have to be a massive success to get it into the budget

This is a good point, thanks for mentioning that. I don't know about the budget, but I think we're all agreeing on the fact that PvP won't be around soon. We're just talking about what we'd like to see when or if it rolls around, and who knows by then maybe servers will be up.

[Caelum-Warblade]

I realize its a touchy topic, but either way, I like the thought of somehow creating a way to benefit the PvE through PvP so that the game has both aspects of play style. By no means to I expect it to happen anytime soon, but these are just some of the best issues and benefits I can think of. Overall, if it's for the better that there is no PvP fine, no worries, but create some kickass PvE maps, and events and allow customization for warframes (gender as well). I want to have to escpae a space ship as its exploding behind me on a time limit to get to the exit after blowing up the reactor. Give the game a sense of danger, and make the player feel really immersed haha. Either or, thanks for the feedback guys, and I hope I didn't offend any hardcore PvE'ers that hate the thought of PvP. :P

[shoudra]

Honestly, it's a timing issue While you articulated your points eloquently. Your thread is literally the 900000000000000000000000000000000000000000th thread (I know it's not that many, but I feel like I've replied to that many) since I think the game went to Steam. After in the Q & A where they explained it's not a priority. By the time they think of adding PVP all these ideas will not be around because they would be buried in the forums. Save them for when they are actually relevant would be my suggestion.

Edit: Zeref I think what you are talking about in the PVE side is what they are working on, I know DE listens pretty well so far to suggestions. Any idea you add to existing or new topics, bump the ones you like.

Edited April 4, 2013 by shoudra

[Blatantfool]

But that doesn't make sense. We're beta testing... That would be like saying "oh don't worry about these bugs, or these issues with gameplay or UI, we don't know how it will be in a month or a year, they'll probably have fixed it by then". PvP is another aspect of the game that SHOULD be discussed as it could be a huge improvement on what is currently there, and without our feedback which DE obviously values, they would have a harder time of thinking of ALL the things that go into it. We're trying to help them, not create more problems.

Don't be dense. It has nothing to do with bugs or UI or anything.

There could be entire gameplay elements between then and now that are totally removed or newly added.

By then, for all we know, melee weapons will be a third equippable weapon instead of bound strictly to the E key with its own short combos and a more complex block and parry system.

By then, for all we know, each frame could have 12 or more skillcards that it can use instead of 4 possible choices.

Take Update 7 for instance - think of the actually meat of those changes. They were seriously drastic. A lot of the game changed with that one patch.

Think of how many patches are in just a year. Or two years. Who knows how long Warframe could be in Beta. MMO games typically have long developement cycles.

It is impossible to properly speculate features for a PvP that would exist in a game a whole year ahead of what we actually have.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Blatantfool]

I realize its a touchy topic, but either way, I like the thought of somehow creating a way to benefit the PvE through PvP so that the game has both aspects of play style. By no means to I expect it to happen anytime soon, but these are just some of the best issues and benefits I can think of. Overall, if it's for the better that there is no PvP fine, no worries, but create some kickass PvE maps, and events and allow customization for warframes (gender as well). I want to have to escpae a space ship as its exploding behind me on a time limit to get to the exit after blowing up the reactor. Give the game a sense of danger, and make the player feel really immersed haha. Either or, thanks for the feedback guys, and I hope I didn't offend any hardcore PvE'ers that hate the thought of PvP. :P

Your thread is fine. It is just the millionth of this topic.

Honestly it is just a tired topic now. The conversation is almost routine. It has nothing to do with the quality of your OP and everything to do with how this conversation seems to spiral into the same things over and over.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Blatantfool

[HellGrind]

Don't be dense. It has nothing to do with bugs or UI or anything.

There could be entire gameplay elements between then and now that are totally removed or newly added.

Look I understand what you're saying, and I agree (except with the dense part), it's impossible to know how the game is going to change over the next year. But perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough - It doesn't matter. You can't limit your ideas and suggestions based on the assumption that the game's mechanics may change. Great, so they flesh out the melee system and make it a third weapon slot; how does that limit PvP functionality? I would bet that it would augment it. More skill cards you say? Brilliant, more powerful and diverse Frames to face up against. Or for the purpose of argument let's say they do some more of those drastic changes and completely revamp the power system altogether. Alot of our points simply won't matter; that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't make them to begin with.

Things like wall-running, somersaults and backflips were all added into the game and made big changes to the way you move around maps. Yet before their implementation there were plenty of discussions regarding new tilesets and map designs. In none of these discussions did anyone say we should stop suggesting ideas, or that some ideas were poor because we don't know how we'll traverse maps in the future. And many of the newer tilesets now cater specifically to wall-running and utilisation of our more mobile ninja moves. It's the same idea; saying our suggestions are an exercise in futility is the height of pessimism and shows no sense of excitement about the game or for that matter, imagination.

Also,

It is impossible to properly speculate features for a PvP that would exist in a game a whole year ahead of what we actually have.

This is incorrect. PREDICTION of PvP features a year in advance is impossible, and not at all what we're trying to accomplish.

Speculation (what you so clearly do not understand) is however possible, and the point of OP's topic.

Can we stop this ridiculous argument and have some constructive ideas from people actually interested in PvP?