A Better Way To Nerf.

[AtomBlade]

You know them, I know them. OP weapons, infinite ammo or high damage weapons and usually both at the same time.

 

Both recent and not recent updates have brought some really powerful weapons. Say, the ogris, penta and the angstrum as our first examples.

Pros:

-huge damage

-large aoe

-and infinte supply of ammo

 

Cons:

-you may down yourself here and there

 

Downing yourself here and there is not a big con, because your team mate will just revive you.

But I think that there are two ways to nerf:

You can either lower stats directly or you can do some other things

I think that the most important nerfs needed are ammo and mods.

 

Ammo:

launchers like the ogris, penta and angstrum should have their own category. They are not rifles.

That category would be launchers. Enemies should on occasion drop launcher ammo, which would drop less often than rifle ammo and give less ammo (Im thinking maybe 3 per pickup). the ammo cap for launchers should also be small. This would do two things, force use of side arms because there is an actual need for said sidearm's use. And make launchers not OP. Semi-auto rifles and pistols (one shot one kill kind of weapons) like the latron, grinlock etc should also have a lower ammo cap and should get less ammo from picking up rifle ammo. I think this should be done because I have never run out of ammo with a semi-auto other than the lato. Never.

 

Mods:

Here im talking pistol mods especially. Pistol mods cost less, and are more effective. maybe if pistols were weak this would be justified, but pistols are not weak. Infact the marelock for example is stronger than the grinlock with its base stats. And its mods are stronger, too. Hornet strike can rank up ten times. it gives +20% damage each time. bringing you to +220% damage once maxed. Point strike ranks up 10 times. it gives +15% with each rank. That maxes to +165% damage. Thats a 55% difference. This would be understandable if all pistol's base stats had 55% less damage, but they don't. New pistols are on par with rifles.

 

I will expand on this post, but im off to play warframe.

[Zero.No.Hikari]

Well add them to sniper pool and change that to Special ammo,  Miter is there and now it can do more damage than a Ogris which I LOVE!!!! Now if only I had more Forma to feed it

Build

[ValhaHazred]

I'd actually prefer folding all primary ammo into one and making each weapon use up a different ammount.

 

Lets say you have 600 primary ammo at max (before mods)

 

Launchers use 10 per shot

Bows and snipers use 6

Heavy shotguns (Hek, Tigris) use 5

Heavy rifles (Latron, Grinlock, etc.) and medium shotguns (Strun) use 4

Medium rifles (Hind, Karak, Burston) and auto shotguns (Sobek, Boar) use 3

HMGs (Soma, Gorgon) use 2

and SMGs and light rifles (Grakata, Braton) and Streamers (Phage, Amprex, Flux) all use 1 

 

Pistols would have max 300 and just go heavy, medium, auto using 3,2 and 1 round respectively.

 

We don't need all these ammo types because we only have one primary at a time anyway.

Edited May 16, 2014 by ValhaHazred

[Zero.No.Hikari]

I'd actually prefer folding all primary ammo into one and making each weapon use up a different ammount.

 

Lets say you have 600 primary ammo at max (before mods)

 

Launchers use 10 per shot

Bows and snipers use 6

Heavy shotguns (Hek, Tigris) use 5

Heavy rifles (Latron, Grinlock, etc.) and medium shotguns (Strun) use 4

Medium rifles (Hind, Karak, Burston) and auto shotguns (Sobek, Boar) use 3

HMGs (Soma, Gorgon) use 2

and SMGs and light rifles (Grakata, Braton) and Streamers (Phage, Amprex, Flux) all use 1 

 

Pistols would have max 300 and just go heavy, medium, auto using 3,2 and 1 round respectively.

 

We don't need all these ammo types because we only have one primary at a time anyway.

So all factions use a universal ammo pool?  Nah I prefer how it is with the way we have ammo mutation mods it makes sense.  Now if only they would just make a Special ammo which is where all Launchers but Miter should go  with Max ammo being 10 and only getting 1 per pick up and 2 from others with their ammo Mutation sounds balanced to me

[darksithis002]

no, don't need the nerf on them.

[(PSN)ELIJAHIB88]

You mod the weapons to your own strength requirements, no one forced you to max out serration, heavy caliber, hunt down split chamber, etc... The launchers are not OP, and resurrecting someone is a choice (one you should always opt to but a choice nonetheless).

[ValhaHazred]

no, don't need the nerf on them.

 

We kinda do. It is literally impossible to run out of ammo on Launcers. For them to stay as is every other weapon might as well not use ammo at all.

 

 

So all factions use a universal ammo pool?  Nah I prefer how it is with the way we have ammo mutation mods it makes sense.

 

Ammo mutation would have to change slightly. Perhaps less ammo used per shot or a slow ammo regen.

 

(PS4)ELIJAHIB88

You mod the weapons to your own strength requirements, no one forced you to max out serration, heavy caliber, hunt down split chamber, etc... The launchers are not OP, and resurrecting someone is a choice (one you should always opt to but a choice nonetheless).

 

That's a stupid defence. Why would you ever not? That's like saying that Snipers should run off rifle ammo too, but that's OK because nobody MADE you build one.

Edited May 16, 2014 by ValhaHazred

[(PSN)ELIJAHIB88]

(PS4)ELIJAHIB88

You mod the weapons to your own strength requirements, no one forced you to max out serration, heavy caliber, hunt down split chamber, etc... The launchers are not OP, and resurrecting someone is a choice (one you should always opt to but a choice nonetheless).

 

That's a stupid defence. Why would you ever not? That's like saying that Snipers should run off rifle ammo too, but that's OK because nobody MADE you build one.

That was an incredibly poor retort that made no sense, what in my comment alluded to such? My comment was about launchers being reflective of user intent and still holds true, and max ammo nerfs would be pointless as you can craft weapon ammo restores. What use is a launcher that can't do it's job?

[Marthrym]

My comment was about launchers being reflective of user intent and still holds true, and max ammo nerfs would be pointless as you can craft weapon ammo restores. What use is a launcher that can't do it's job?

^ This.

 

 

We kinda do. It is literally impossible to run out of ammo on Launcers. For them to stay as is every other weapon might as well not use ammo at all.

I swear it's like some players WANT to run out of ammo, and FORCE others to have to as well. There are MANY weapons that run out of ammo in mere seconds, you want to end up with nice little 0s in your ammo counter? Use these and leave ammo efficient weapons alone. God...

[ValhaHazred]

That was an incredibly poor retort that made no sense, what in my comment alluded to such? My comment was about launchers being reflective of user intent and still holds true, and max ammo nerfs would be pointless as you can craft weapon ammo restores. What use is a launcher that can't do it's job?

 

A launcher with a max ammo of 50-100 will still do it's job. They are so powerful that killing multiple enemies in one shot is a guarantie until triple digit levels.

 

A sniper rifle deals similar damage but can only kill one or two (with punch through mods) and is limited to 62 rounds. Do you see the problem now?

 

When your rebuttle to Launchers being OP with too much ammo was to claim nobody is forcing them to mod it, the same goes to other weapons. If you shouldn't mod a Launcher why even build another powerful weapon? If the Launcher get effectively infinite ammo, why not give evrything infinite ammo?

 

Lowering the max ammo of Launchers isn't made pointless by ammo restores because that means you actually need to restore your ammo every once in a while. Which is kinda the point of an ammo restore.

[ValhaHazred]

^ This.

 

 

I swear it's like some players WANT to run out of ammo, and FORCE others to have to as well. There are MANY weapons that run out of ammo in mere seconds, you want to end up with nice little 0s in your ammo counter? Use these and leave ammo efficient weapons alone. God...

 

Yes I do want to have the possibility to run out of ammo on occasion. Theres a difference between ammo efficient and having effectively infinite ammo.

 

A launcher can deal thousands of damage 600 frikken times without even needing to pick up ammo. It boggles my mind how you can defend that.

[VentiGlondi]

Ammo capacity should be a separate stat unique for every weapon.

It doesn't make sense for ogris and soma or marelok and twin vipers to have the same amount of ammo.

[(PSN)ELIJAHIB88]

A launcher with a max ammo of 50-100 will still do it's job. They are so powerful that killing multiple enemies in one shot is a guarantie until triple digit levels.

 

A sniper rifle deals similar damage but can only kill one or two (with punch through mods) and is limited to 62 rounds. Do you see the problem now?

 

When your rebuttle to Launchers being OP with too much ammo was to claim nobody is forcing them to mod it, the same goes to other weapons. If you shouldn't mod a Launcher why even build another powerful weapon? If the Launcher get effectively infinite ammo, why not give evrything infinite ammo?

 

Lowering the max ammo of Launchers isn't made pointless by ammo restores because that means you actually need to restore your ammo every once in a while. Which is kinda the point of an ammo restore.

Lowering the max ammo just adds the chance to tedium, in the event we're talking about an odd or survival, (some of the few modes in which you can thoroughly prime situations where you aren't as endangered) you'd still drop down for the mods or drops (not even counting carrier's auto vacuum). Nerfing launchers for Sniper sakes would be of incredibly bad taste and would be overlooking the issues that they face (They barely have any place in a horde heavy game and would work better where you can actually stealth yourself: Solo sessions really). My comment was to launchers being op or better said, weapons themselves being perceived to be overpowered when it is us as Tenno who make it such: if you want less ammo efficiency, utilize this games greatest strength and be selective in modding. Also, to the infinite ammo remark, why does that little number at the side bother you so much at it's current size?

[VentiGlondi]

Also, to the infinite ammo remark, why does that little number at the side bother you so much at it's current size?

Heh. If it was only a number.

 

Ammo capacity on powerful weapons is an important balancing factor mainly because low ammo forces you to be cautious with your shots. Each of these shots needs to matter.

Currently, you can unload your Ogris like there was no tomorrow.

[(PSN)ELIJAHIB88]

Heh. If it was only a number.

 

Ammo capacity on powerful weapons is an important balancing factor mainly because low ammo forces you to be cautious with your shots. Each of these shots needs to matter.

Currently, you can unload your Ogris like there was no tomorrow.

Have you forgotten the Ogris has a charge trigger in addition to proximity penalties, and the missile can be destroyed in flight possibly taking you with it? As for balance, are you aiming to balance the weapons amongst themselves or our infinitely scaling enemies?

[ValhaHazred]

Lowering the max ammo just adds the chance to tedium, in the event we're talking about an odd or survival, (some of the few modes in which you can thoroughly prime situations where you aren't as endangered) you'd still drop down for the mods or drops (not even counting carrier's auto vacuum). Nerfing launchers for Sniper sakes would be of incredibly bad taste and would be overlooking the issues that they face (They barely have any place in a horde heavy game and would work better where you can actually stealth yourself: Solo sessions really). My comment was to launchers being op or better said, weapons themselves being perceived to be overpowered when it is us as Tenno who make it such: if you want less ammo efficiency, utilize this games greatest strength and be selective in modding. Also, to the infinite ammo remark, why does that little number at the side bother you so much at it's current size?

 

It doesn't add to tedium anymore than all the other weapons that do actually do need to pay attention to ammo. You're just saying you want to spam forever without a thought.

 

It's not specifically for snipers, I'm just using them as an example because they do similar damage to launchers but actually have a smaller ammo pool. You know, for balance.

 

Even unmodded you'd be very hard pressed to run out of ammo for the Penta or Ogris. I actually tried it a while back when I forma'd my Penta. Straight to Pluto with a level 0, I had no problems and I didn't even use close to half my ammo.

 

It bothers me because what is even the point of ammo pickups if the most powerful weapons in the game also have the most ammo? If you're going to do that why not take ammo away entirely and then balance the game around reloads?

 

Moot now anyway, they just called out Ogris an Penta's ammo unbalance in hot topics.

Edited May 16, 2014 by ValhaHazred

[VentiGlondi]

Have you forgotten the Ogris has a charge trigger in addition to proximity penalties, and the missile can be destroyed in flight possibly taking you with it? As for balance, are you aiming to balance the weapons amongst themselves or our infinitely scaling enemies?

Those two could justify a big ammo pool. Except this ammo pool isn't big, it's ENORMOUS. There's no way you can justify 500 rockets. Even 200 would be more than necessary.

 

Besides how is proximity an issue when most of enemies prefer when you're away from them. Your biggest problem are allies trying to hug you.

[(PSN)ELIJAHIB88]

It doesn't add to tedium anymore than all the other weapons that do actually do need to pay attention to ammo. You're just saying you want to spam forever without a thought.

 

It's not specifically for snipers, I'm just using them as an example because they do similar damage to launchers but actually have a smaller ammo pool. You know, for balance.

 

Even unmodded you'd be very hard pressed to run out of ammo for the Penta or Ogris. I actually tried it a while back when I forma'd my Penta. Straight to Pluto with a level 0, I had no problems and I didn't even use close to half my ammo.

 

It bothers me because what is even the point of ammo pickups if the most powerful weapons in the game also have the most ammo. If you're going to do that why not take ammo away entirely and then balance the game around reloads?

Until I say I want to spam forever without a thought, do not put words in my mouth to levy your cause. Heavy weapon artillery is for specific content, if the weapon which is supposed to be powerful cannot get you to the games natural highest enemy level then there is something wrong. You don't wear a Tux to McDonalds and you shouldn't use launchers outside specifically challenging locations. It's ammo capacity doesn't need to be touched, and the presence isn't threatening to anything. For it's max destruction, it has plenty of flaws, running out of ammo to sate your needs should not be one of them.

[Nox-Lamina]

This argument again? Have you used a bow in this game before? How about a sniper? How often did you run out of ammo? I'm willing to bet it is extremely rarely. Someone isn't going to be firing their launcher anywhere near as much as a bow and they'll likely cause a greater amount of damage with it. Lowering the ammo count to something that is not obscenely low will do nothing. I also don't think that it'd be too hard to put a mutation mod on a launcher if your suggestion of 3 bloody ammo per pickup were to go through.

 

This would just needlessly inconvenience the players.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[VentiGlondi]

This argument again? Have you used a bow in this game before? How about a sniper? How often did you run out of ammo? I'm willing to bet it is extremely rarely. Someone isn't going to be firing their launcher anywhere near as much as a bow and they'll likely cause a greater amount of damage with it. I also don't think that it'd be too hard to put a mutation mod on a launcher if your suggestion of 3 bloody ammo per pickup were to go through.

 

This would just needlessly inconvenience the players.

I don't understand your post.

First you show arguments against launcher's current capacity and then you just say it's pointless.

[(PSN)ELIJAHIB88]

Those two could justify a big ammo pool. Except this ammo pool isn't big, it's ENORMOUS. There's no way you can justify 500 rockets. Even 200 would be more than necessary.

 

Besides how is proximity an issue when most of enemies prefer when you're away from them. Your biggest problem are allies trying to hug you.

Totally forgot about other players going or spawning in front of you, BUT, there are melee units and they often come close enough to act as a meatshield to your demise in addition to the fact that your rocket can still be shot out of the air causing you to die. There's no reason to justify it having a smaller amount besides disliking the number that comes with it: 200 is nice, and 500 is nice but how does this destroy or abuse aspects of the game? You never have to drop down? You'll miss out on loot and ultimately be aiding your own laziness. Tenno who do such only hurt themselves.

[Nox-Lamina]

I don't understand your post.

First you show arguments against launcher's current capacity and then you just say it's pointless.

 

My first point is that no matter what the ammo count, launchers fire too slowly and kill too many enemies to run out. Make it 500, make it 72. It doesn't matter. A bow has 72, and I rarely run out, why will an even slower shooting more destructive launcher run out? My next point is simple even if some obtuse ammo pool and pickup rate were to be employed, switching out one mod for a mutation mod will nullify it. 

Edited May 16, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[ValhaHazred]

Even in my version of the ammo you'd have 60 rounds to start and pick up 6 ammo per pack and remember that EVERY drop would be the appropriate ammo type.

 

It's not like I want the Launchers to be limited to 10-20 shots. I just think they should be on par with similarly powerful weapons, running out only if you overdo it.

[VentiGlondi]

Totally forgot about other players going or spawning in front of you, BUT, there are melee units and they often come close enough to act as a meatshield to your demise in addition to the fact that your rocket can still be shot out of the air causing you to die. There's no reason to justify it having a smaller amount besides disliking the number that comes with it: 200 is nice, and 500 is nice but how does this destroy or abuse aspects of the game? You never have to drop down? You'll miss out on loot and ultimately be aiding your own laziness. Tenno who do such only hurt themselves.

I've already explained my point earlier. Less ammo forces you to be more cautious with your shots. Sure, the self-damage is there, but in my opinion that's a less important factor. Hell, you could even reduce the self-damage along with ammo pool and it would be a more balanced weapon.

That's basically the challenge behind these weapons. You need to be careful with it, you need to make every shot count and you get rewarded with tons of gore.

Now imagine that I'd like to use an explosive weapon, but I wouldn't like it to be too easy. It's literally impossible. The "don't want it - don't use it" argument doesn't work here - I am unable to reduce my ammo pool. And some of you even say that reducing the ammo capacity won't have such a big impact on the weapon anyways. This only means that those who use explosive weapons just to see things die in large numbers wouldn't really be hurt by such a change.

 

 

My first point is that no matter what the ammo count, launchers fire too slowly and kill too many enemies to run out. Make it 500, make it 72. It doesn't matter. A bow has 72, and I rarely run out, why will an even slower shooting more destructive launcher run out? My next point is simple even if some obtuse ammo pool and pickup rate were to be employed, switching out one mod for a mutation mod will nullify it. 

I still don't get your point. These are the arguments I could use to support my cause. If 72 is more than enough, why would it have 500 rockets to begin with?

Edited May 17, 2014 by VentiGlondi