(Dragon) Nikana - Back To The Drawing Board!

[Kuhrasu]

Why should this principle only apply to the Nikana. Every melee weapon in the game is based on a weapon just as lethal as the katana, surely they should also be able to one hit enemies?

Clearly not, as some are focused on attacking multiple times, thus they should kill in multiple hits, and mind you, my "kill in a single hit" also implies that this hit isn't near instant.

[Geoff8733]

Clearly not, as some are focused on attacking multiple times, thus they should kill in multiple hits, and mind you, my "kill in a single hit" also implies that this hit isn't near instant.

 

If you're talking about weapons in game then the entire combat system is built around higher level enemies requiring more damage to kill and thus requiring multiple hits from any weapon. You can't have a one hit kill weapon in this context - it would be way too overpowered. So really you're talking about increasing the base damage of the weapon, one hit kills are irrelevant to that point as any weapon in the game can one hit kill a sufficiently low level enemy.

 

As it is the Dragon Nikana has one of the better base damages for melee weapons, so what more do you want them to do? It might not be the most optimal weapon from a DPS standpoint, but if you're modding the weapon for highest damage per hit it's already doing what you want it to.

 

If you're talking about real life weaponry that form the inspiration for these weapons a longsword is just as capable of killing a man in one blow, a dagger to the neck is going to drop you very quickly and maces are designed around crushing skulls. The katana isn't especially lethal as far as melee weapons go.

[Joyfulmama]

such detail

[Kuhrasu]

If you're talking about weapons in game then the entire combat system is built around higher level enemies requiring more damage to kill and thus requiring multiple hits from any weapon. You can't have a one hit kill weapon in this context - it would be way too overpowered. So really you're talking about increasing the base damage of the weapon, one hit kills are irrelevant to that point as any weapon in the game can one hit kill a sufficiently low level enemy.

 

As it is the Dragon Nikana has one of the better base damages for melee weapons, so what more do you want them to do? It might not be the most optimal weapon from a DPS standpoint, but if you're modding the weapon for highest damage per hit it's already doing what you want it to.

 

If you're talking about real life weaponry that form the inspiration for these weapons a longsword is just as capable of killing a man in one blow, a dagger to the neck is going to drop you very quickly and maces are designed around crushing skulls. The katana isn't especially lethal as far as melee weapons go.

I think you took the "kill in one hit" a bit too literally there chief. I wasn't being literal with that line, though I will reword the OP in that section as to avoid further confusion.

The Dragon Nikana deals acceptable damage, nothing more, nothing less, since Dual Ichor exist, which are just some random infested based weapon, while our masterfully crafted blade for experienced Tenno somehow feels and performs about as well as a Chinese toy from the 80's, at least in comparison. The main purpose of the thread is for changing the stylistic approach to properly emulate a Katana, and not just be some weird fencing animations with the occasional decent one.

[Mate397]

I personally didn't enjoy using the Nikana/Dragon Nikana, most of the time I didn't even bother using since by the time I slashed an enemy, my shotgun would have mowed the whole squad down. So some changes would be welcome to it.

[Geoff8733]

I think you took the "kill in one hit" a bit too literally there chief. I wasn't being literal with that line, though I will reword the OP in that section as to avoid further confusion.

The Dragon Nikana deals acceptable damage, nothing more, nothing less, since Dual Ichor exist, which are just some random infested based weapon, while our masterfully crafted blade for experienced Tenno somehow feels and performs about as well as a Chinese toy from the 80's, at least in comparison. The main purpose of the thread is for changing the stylistic approach to properly emulate a Katana, and not just be some weird fencing animations with the occasional decent one.

 

Animations and attack combos I'm all behind having a greater number of. That is the whole point behind having stance cards after all, adding varied attack styles to different weapon styles. I didn't have a problem with the suggestion that we get a greater range of stances for the Nikana.

 

But the Dragon Nikana already does greater one hit damage than the Dual Ichor. If you want it to be a 'one hit kill' weapon, that is the stat to focus on, rather than raw DPS. It can one hit more mobs than the this random infested weapon. Which is what you claimed to have wanted. You should never be one hitting bosses or mini-bosses in warframe unless you are way over their level because of the way the scaling works. Against serious opponents every melee weapon in the game is built around building up a long combo of attacks to buff damage, with that design how would any weapon not be 'a spammy DPS stick' as you put it?

 

Damage wise the weapon is fine, maybe it could do with a stance that gives it an attack speed so it can compete with the Dual Ichors on DPS and maybe not. That depends on how DE want the weapon to fit in on their power charts.

 

Claiming that because a better weapon exists that the Dragon Nikana is barely adequate is ridiculous, unless you're suggesting that all melee weapons should be brought up to that power level. That I could get behind, but that doesn't look like what DE wants from their weapons as there are clear tiers of effectiveness in the weapons they have produced. 

[Kuhrasu]

Animations and attack combos I'm all behind having a greater number of. That is the whole point behind having stance cards after all, adding varied attack styles to different weapon styles. I didn't have a problem with the suggestion that we get a greater range of stances for the Nikana.

 

But the Dragon Nikana already does greater one hit damage than the Dual Ichor. If you want it to be a 'one hit kill' weapon, that is the stat to focus on, rather than raw DPS. It can one hit more mobs than the this random infested weapon. Which is what you claimed to have wanted. You should never be one hitting bosses or mini-bosses in warframe unless you are way over their level because of the way the scaling works. Against serious opponents every melee weapon in the game is built around building up a long combo of attacks to buff damage, with that design how would any weapon not be 'a spammy DPS stick' as you put it?

 

Damage wise the weapon is fine, maybe it could do with a stance that gives it an attack speed so it can compete with the Dual Ichors on DPS and maybe not. That depends on how DE want the weapon to fit in on their power charts.

 

Claiming that because a better weapon exists that the Dragon Nikana is barely adequate is ridiculous, unless you're suggesting that all melee weapons should be brought up to that power level. That I could get behind, but that doesn't look like what DE wants from their weapons as there are clear tiers of effectiveness in the weapons they have produced. 

I want all weapons to be effective at what their intended role is, oneshotting is not something I meant literally, rather I meant exactly what I explained in the combos, a series of hits that ends with a nice, Samurai like clean cut that deals heavy damage, instead of the current combos, which don't really do much of anything, save for the multiple stabs on Tranquil Cleave, but that's just out of place for a katana.

 

Edit: Taking into consideration that my badly worded closing paragraph cause some confusion as to what I meant, I have updated the OP to better reflect my concept, for the sake of brevity, what I meant is that 

Over 2 seconds - Dual Ichor hit X times for Y damage

Over 2 seconds - Nikana combo's first strike deal less than Y damage, the final decisive cut equals it out to Y damage by being a single, strong attack, which is what Katanas are about, and what Nikanas fail to capture

 

I hope I made my point more understandable with this post, sorry for the confusion, as I said, I didn't mean literally kill in one hit, I meant that the Nikanas should stylistically be about slower, more powerful attacks, but that the attacks would be so powerful as to equal it out to other top tier weapons, because that's what the Dragon Nikana is supposed to be.

Dual Ichor - 8 hits - 2 seconds - 25,000 damage (numbers aren't real, just representative)

Dragon Nikana - 3 hits - 2 seconds - 25,000 damage (numbers aren't real, just representative)

Edited May 25, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[Lers]

Some sort of iaido based stance would be nice i guess. Strong singular or maybe dual swipes in a medium area in front of the frame... much like the no-stance-spam but more stylized / stronger / slower. Each combo ending with slowly sheathing the sword if the damage bonus warrants it.

 

We might as well get the full iai package if we have the sword for it.

 

Stat-wise though i don't see any problems. It isn't really weak, and i personally find most melee combos useless / marginally rewarding anyway.

 

Oh and the model is fine too. I'm sure we all could come up with a couple dozen of sci-fi excuses why the blade is so slim.

[Kuhrasu]

Some sort of iaido based stance would be nice i guess. Strong singular or maybe dual swipes in a medium area in front of the frame... much like the no-stance-spam but more stylized / stronger / slower. Each combo ending with slowly sheathing the sword if the damage bonus warrants it.

 

We might as well get the full iai package if we have the sword for it.

 

Stat-wise though i don't see any problems. It isn't really weak, and i personally find most melee combos useless / marginally rewarding anyway.

 

Oh and the model is fine too. I'm sure we all could come up with a couple dozen of sci-fi excuses why the blade is so slim.

What about the ribbon that completely ruins any possible scabbard play, at least from a visual standpoint?

Edited May 25, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[Lers]

You mean the small stripe of cloth at the end? Cool factor > usefulness i guess. I have no problems with it. (this apllies to most of the sword in my mind) Also: the hook its attached to seems mighty sharp to me.

 

The only part i have a tiny gripe with is the shape of the tsuba. Sometimes it seems to protrude in some weird angles, but it might just be due to some shadow interactions in certain areas.

[Kuhrasu]

You mean the small stripe of cloth at the end? Cool factor > usefulness i guess. I have no problems with it. (this apllies to most of the sword in my mind) Also: the hook its attached to seems mighty sharp to me.

 

The only part i have a tiny gripe with is the shape of the tsuba. Sometimes it seems to protrude in some weird angles, but it might just be due to some shadow interactions in certain areas.

To each his own, but it seems weird to me that you'd prefer tickling your enemies with a ribbon, instead of smacking them around like the man himself

Edited May 25, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[Lers]

To each his own, but it seems weird to me that you'd prefer tickling your enemies with a ribbon, instead of smacking them around like the man himself

 

I prefer slicing them up with the blade when given the option. I've found Vergils tendency of slapping stuff around with the scabbard somewhat puzzling (and annoying) when he has a blade that slices up dimensions in his hand.

 

But indeed, to each his own.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Lers

[Kuhrasu]

I prefer slicing them up with the blade when given the option. I've found Vergils tendency of slapping stuff around with the scabbard somewhat puzzling (and annoying) when he has a blade that slices up dimensions in his hand.

 

But indeed, to each his own.

Because it looks good or because he doesn't feel the need to use his blade. Rule of cool.

[Beas7ie]

Some sort of iaido based stance would be nice i guess. Strong singular or maybe dual swipes in a medium area in front of the frame... much like the no-stance-spam but more stylized / stronger / slower. Each combo ending with slowly sheathing the sword if the damage bonus warrants it.

 

We might as well get the full iai package if we have the sword for it.

 

Stat-wise though i don't see any problems. It isn't really weak, and i personally find most melee combos useless / marginally rewarding anyway.

 

Oh and the model is fine too. I'm sure we all could come up with a couple dozen of sci-fi excuses why the blade is so slim.

 

We kind of already have that with both stance mods AND even without stance mods.  

 

I personally am for LESS sheathing of the blade except after certain combos or attacks.  The whole iaido thing(such as DMC Vergil or DW Zhou Tai) is overrated, makes little sense, and doesn't work.

 

The Samurai did practice iaido but the whole point of that was to just get one quick attack right at the beginning of the fight and then they would keep their swords drawn until after the fighting is over, then they clean off the blade and sheath the sword.    

 

The best example I can think of is Ninja Gaiden 2.  During fighting, Ryu NEVER sheathes his weapons but then after the fight is done, he will do a swipe to fling off all the blood and gunk and then sheathe(or put away if not a sword) his weapon.  It works great, and looks cool.

[Kuhrasu]

We kind of already have that with both stance mods AND even without stance mods.  

 

I personally am for LESS sheathing of the blade except after certain combos or attacks.  The whole iaido thing(such as DMC Vergil or DW Zhou Tai) is overrated, makes little sense, and doesn't work.

 

The Samurai did practice iaido but the whole point of that was to just get one quick attack right at the beginning of the fight and then they would keep their swords drawn until after the fighting is over, then they clean off the blade and sheath the sword.    

 

The best example I can think of is Ninja Gaiden 2.  During fighting, Ryu NEVER sheathes his weapons but then after the fight is done, he will do a swipe to fling off all the blood and gunk and then sheathe(or put away if not a sword) his weapon.  It works great, and looks cool.

Too bad none of the animations in Warframe have anything to do with Katana fighting except the new combo added to DJ, which still uses that terrible two handed fencing opener.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

I want all weapons to be effective at what their intended role is, oneshotting is not something I meant literally, rather I meant exactly what I explained in the combos, a series of hits that ends with a nice, Samurai like clean cut that deals heavy damage, instead of the current combos, which don't really do much of anything, save for the multiple stabs on Tranquil Cleave, but that's just out of place for a katana.

 

Edit: Taking into consideration that my badly worded closing paragraph cause some confusion as to what I meant, I have updated the OP to better reflect my concept, for the sake of brevity, what I meant is that 

Over 2 seconds - Dual Ichor hit X times for Y damage

Over 2 seconds - Nikana combo's first strike deal less than Y damage, the final decisive cut equals it out to Y damage by being a single, strong attack, which is what Katanas are about, and what Nikanas fail to capture

 

I hope I made my point more understandable with this post, sorry for the confusion, as I said, I didn't mean literally kill in one hit, I meant that the Nikanas should stylistically be about slower, more powerful attacks, but that the attacks would be so powerful as to equal it out to other top tier weapons, because that's what the Dragon Nikana is supposed to be.

Dual Ichor - 8 hits - 2 seconds - 25,000 damage (numbers aren't real, just representative)

Dragon Nikana - 3 hits - 2 seconds - 25,000 damage (numbers aren't real, just representative)

Apologies aren't necessary, it's flagrantly obvious what you meant, but its the forums - you have to put things a certain way for some of its users to understand, it seems.

Edited May 26, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Beas7ie]

Too bad none of the animations in Warframe have anything to do with Katana fighting except the new combo added to DJ, which still uses that terrible two handed fencing opener.

 

Almost none of the animations in warframe are even close to how the weapons were actually used in real life, which isn't really a bad thing and it would be kind of dull if it really was like that as in RL people were much slower and burdened by heavy armor, that and trying to do all those fancy flips and spins would just get you killed, but futuristic space ninjas can pull it off.  

 

Though with that being said, the combat system needs VAST improvements.  Main thing is that this  E E E pause E E E style of combos doesn't work.  It requires perfect timing to pull off and when you have bad guys that can easily knock you around, or even squadmates that will happily shoot the bad guys in head over and over with their maxed out Boltor Prime then getting that perfect E E E pause E E E combo really isn't going to do any good unless you want to teach that air who's boss.  And I don't think that air is really intimidated by your fancy combos.

 

What DE needs to do is make another type of melee attack like a more specialized attack or heavy attack.  Map it to another button.  Last I checked the R key wasn't mapped to anything by default(at least for me it does nothing) and with it being right next to the E key it makes doing the cool combos much faster and easier.  So now combos can be more like E E R E RRE  

 

or just go the Dynasty Warriors style with combos like E  E R  EERR  EEERR  EEEERR EEEEERR.

 

But I guess that's a topic for a different thread.

[nekrojiji]

I see here people who fight on what's the highest DPS melee (Dragon Nikana, because Dual Ichor has very unpredictable damage values).

The only reason I don't like Dragon Nikana is that it hasn't momentum. Curiously enough, smaller melee weapons have momentum and keep me on my feet if I get hit with knockdown, so i believe this should be fixed. If I can't copter with it (because it's heavy) at least let it keep me on my feet while moving it.

 

 

What I don't understand is, why should I use swords for damage!

 

just an example: Dread has more Slash damage than any melee weapon, if you need to kill prosecutors.

 

In a world that has explosive weapons even in the form of small handguns, the current melee weapons are obsolete.

 

The damage on melee is weak and the combos work only if you start from idle. The combos should be detected if the correct control combination is inputed. This way combos will have a quicker respons time.

 

Another thing, Parry should have the highest priority. It shoudn't matter what you were doing, when the parry button is pressed you instantly enter the parry stance. Now, even if I see an ancient runing towards me or a heavy unit starting to stomp and I press parry, my frame first tries to finish the inputed cuts and than start's to parry (when I'm allready down).

Any melee attack command should test first if the parry button is pressed or not. I don't know how the attack commands are executed, but testing the parry button should have the highest priority.

 

Now we are not ninja, we are berserking warriors that either parry everithing or attack regardless of damage incurred.

 

 

[Kuhrasu]

I see here people who fight on what's the highest DPS melee (Dragon Nikana, because Dual Ichor has very unpredictable damage values).

The only reason I don't like Dragon Nikana is that it hasn't momentum. Curiously enough, smaller melee weapons have momentum and keep me on my feet if I get hit with knockdown, so i believe this should be fixed. If I can't copter with it (because it's heavy) at least let it keep me on my feet while moving it.

 

 

What I don't understand is, why should I use swords for damage!

 

just an example: Dread has more Slash damage than any melee weapon, if you need to kill prosecutors.

 

In a world that has explosive weapons even in the form of small handguns, the current melee weapons are obsolete.

 

The damage on melee is weak and the combos work only if you start from idle. The combos should be detected if the correct control combination is inputed. This way combos will have a quicker respons time.

 

Another thing, Parry should have the highest priority. It shoudn't matter what you were doing, when the parry button is pressed you instantly enter the parry stance. Now, even if I see an ancient runing towards me or a heavy unit starting to stomp and I press parry, my frame first tries to finish the inputed cuts and than start's to parry (when I'm allready down).

Any melee attack command should test first if the parry button is pressed or not. I don't know how the attack commands are executed, but testing the parry button should have the highest priority.

 

Now we are not ninja, we are berserking warriors that either parry everithing or attack regardless of damage incurred.

Everything you said can be summed up really easily by just saying - DE need to play Metal Gear Rising.

[Lers]

*snip*

Now we are not ninja, we are berserking warriors that either parry everithing or attack regardless of damage incurred.

 

A bit of false advertizing on DE's part there, but... would you sneak around for hours at end just to silently assassinate a single key target, when you have a whole solar system as your enemy and have all sort of voidy-anti matterish-scifi powers at your back and call? Ain nobody have time for that!

 

Also, both heroes from Metal Gear Rising and Ninja Gaiden are horrible representation of ninjas. Oh and Strider... cant forget about Strider!