Playing A Tank Frame Is Actually More Penalizing Than Rewarding?

[Aerensiniac]

Started my frost recently after a loki and the difference is mind boggling.

The first issue (and probably biggest) is speed.

I can understand the idea of sacrificed mobility for more armor and defense, but i find it rather ridiculous that the frame that is supposed to soak damage is literally the last to enter the battle. My sprinting speed is that of Loki's walking speed for crying out loud and with the difficulty we have right now, there is literally no point to wait for the tank.

Quicker and faster frames just rush in, butcher everything without any need of support, and rhino/frost will arrive just about the right time to collect the left over loot.

Second issue: Knock down.

On this note i have to say that i expressed in several threads that i do not want knock downs and stuns to be also nerfed to hell since they represent one of the last few remaining challenges of the game that can actually kill you (and lets be honest here, since the passive health/shield/energy buff, the only way to die is to either get a knockdown or to be stupid enough to stand in a crossfire for 10 seconds or more).

That being said, i find that tank frames should receive a reduced chance of stun/knockdown.

On my loki, if i got knocked down i had nobody to blame, but on frost due to my reduced mobility and the fact that i am supposed to be somewhat tank these crackas, especially the infested... nope. It does not work.

Tank frame or not, if you get a knockdown in the middle of a swarm, you will be eaten alive. Even more so since Ancient Disruptors can simply shoo shoo all energy and shields away in a swing of their hand, stripping you of all chances at survival.

Third issue: Lack of complementing

This is more of a general problem than that of the tank frames, but stays true here as well.

Warframes and skills dont complement each other, drastically reducing team play experience in the long run.

In most team based MMOs classes are specific and there are specializations. Tank tanks, healer heals, engineer engineers, dps dpses.

In Warframe, everyone is ~-=t3hUltimateMegad3thDOOMknight=-~ and unites all features, classes and roles in their character while having absolutely no need for the support of others and/or teammates.

The essence of this issue shows in boss fights mainly: Bosses require no team work of any form, just a crapload of bullets. They are essentially what you call bullet sponges and you only need to team up against them to kill them quicker/have enough ammo around to ensure a safe, ranged kill.

Long story short: We are in beta but i cant really see how the end game/warranty of the game will play out on the long run. If we keep the current elements and ideals of the game, warframe will never be more than extensive grind fest with no challenge of skill and 4 derailed trains of doom murdering masses of chance less enemies much like a lawn mower is cutting through grass, with tank frames tagging behind them at all times.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[CY13ERPUNK]

the movement speed nerf to the "tanky" frames was a bad idea

after leveling my rhino to 30, i hardly ever play him anymore, and i did like playing as him, but then going back to excal and later moving to loki and ash... omfg going back to rhino is SOOO painful

IMHO relying on your powers (ie rhino's iron skin, frost's snow globe) is not enough to be tanky, back in the day I stacked 4 or more +70% armor mods and FINALLY got some degree of toughness on my rhino, but since you can only have ONE +armor mod, AND it's incredibly expensive to create, AND not every frame has the right polarity to deal with the high mod cost of a max armor mod

all of those factors combined create a sizable global nerf to "tanky" frames

but whatev's, I don't want the game to be too easy, so i was against the large passive buff to hp/shield/power, feels like almost too much now, but before seemed too harsh to rely on RNG for hp/shield/power completely (still looking for goldilocks IMHO)

but i hope that we eventually see +passive movement speed mods, and a buff to the +armor% mod (say 20/40/60 etc vs the current 10/20/30)

[neKroMancer]

Tank frames are casters. What makes Rhino/Frost a tank is their abilities. Iron skin and Snow globe are inarguably the best defense powers in the game. They have higher shield/health/armor then other light frames. Combined with extra shield/health/armor from mods and you're going to be able to tank better than most frames.

1. Speed/Stamina are moddable to an extent. You won't find yourself running along with Loki but you can run longer with extra stamina. Perks come with some disadvantages.

2. Knockdown is more or less a universal problem for any frames. Heavies should react like Rhino in OBT trailer to stun attack even without Iron skin.

3. Lack of complimenting is quite good actually. Restrict role into certain archtypes mean players will have a hard time solo or play in a 2-man squad. It's dangerous to do so and offers severe restriction to players. IMO, the only thing that heavies lack is aggro-drawing power.

Boss fights are badly designed in many levels. Why DE don't do something them is mind blowing.

Edited April 7, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Aerensiniac]

the movement speed nerf to the "tanky" frames was a bad idea

after leveling my rhino to 30, i hardly ever play him anymore, and i did like playing as him, but then going back to excal and later moving to loki and ash... omfg going back to rhino is SOOO painful

IMHO relying on your powers (ie rhino's iron skin, frost's snow globe) is not enough to be tanky, back in the day I stacked 4 or more +70% armor mods and FINALLY got some degree of toughness on my rhino, but since you can only have ONE +armor mod, AND it's incredibly expensive to create, AND not every frame has the right polarity to deal with the high mod cost of a max armor mod

all of those factors combined create a sizable global nerf to "tanky" frames

but whatev's, I don't want the game to be too easy, so i was against the large passive buff to hp/shield/power, feels like almost too much now, but before seemed too harsh to rely on RNG for hp/shield/power completely (still looking for goldilocks IMHO)

but i hope that we eventually see +passive movement speed mods, and a buff to the +armor% mod (say 20/40/60 etc vs the current 10/20/30)

I swear to god though, my loki has not gotten wasted as much by infested, despite the fact that it had half the shields and health frost has.

Its simply due to the fact that it was quicker on its feet.

By the time infested would attack, it had already moved away from that specific spot.

On my frost this became completely $&*&*#(%&. Try to step to the side from an infested, fail it, get stunned/knocked and rape ensues most likely killing you.

I feel that movement speed is incomparably better than armor and +shields, to the point that i would say that my loki had a better overall survivability than my frost.

This accompanied by the fact that you will fail every damage list due to being the last one to enter the battle... nope...

I clearly find that rhino and frost fail at fulfilling their roles and generally are a lot more penalized experience than any of the faster classes.

[Aerensiniac]

Tank frames are casters. What makes Rhino/Frost a tank is their abilities. Iron skin and Snow globe are inarguably the best defense powers in the game. They have higher shield/health/armor then other light frames. Combined with extra shield/health/armor from mods and you're going to be able to tank better than most frames.

I do not question that i am able to "tank better than most frames".

The issue is that "most frames" do not have to tank/take damage at all due to their speed, making tanking completely obsolete.

Why would you want to tank when you can simply avoid getting damaged at all?

Also: Snow globe/iron skin are indeed the best defensive skills in the game, but once again, pointless to defend when you can avoid taking damage completely, and then we have not even mentioned abilities like decoy which will simply direct all and any damage away from you.

I understand your point, but i cant feel it.

Being the best at tanking means nothing when the rest of the frames take the tenth of damage due to their speed.

1. Speed/Stamina are moddable to an extent. You won't find yourself running along with Loki but you can run longer with extra stamina. Perks come with some disadvantages.

Which is still no help, considering the fact that Frost's sprinting speed is that of loki's walking speed.

Modding frost for sprint speed will not get you ahead of loki or any of the non-armor frames. All it will do is that your distance to your party will now be 2 rooms instead of 4 all the time.

2. Knockdown is more or less a universal problem for any frames. Heavies should react like Rhino in OBT trailer to stun attack even without Iron skin.

Naturally. You dont really have any other chance at survival otherwise...

3. Lack of complimenting is quite good actually. Restrict role into certain archtypes mean players will have a hard time solo or play in a 2-man squad. It's dangerous to do so and offers severe restriction to players. IMO, the only thing that heavies lack is aggro-drawing power.

Yes, i understand this point perfectly well. Its what i was thinking about myself while writing, but we are on the other side of the horse now.

Specializing impairs solo play. True.

Yet at present: not specializing impairs team play beyond sanity.

In fact: There is no team play. We can have parties of 4 people, but as i have said, its just 4 solo players on the same map. They do not support each other nor have any need for it. The only thing reminding of you on the fact that you are in a team, is that you get to pull up your teammates from the floor every once in a while. In a more skilled party, not even that.

TL;DR: I do not feel how frost has any value, whether in team or in solo.

It gets the job done, but currently its mediocre at best in every aspect, even compared to the starting frames.

Loki out classes frost/rhino by far and also fulfills the tanking role 2000% better with its decoy.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[SpiderWaifu]

TL;DR: I do not feel how frost has any value, whether in team or in solo.

I'd welcome you to play a round or two with my frost... But that's beside the point.

I love my Frost to bits, and it's a one-man slaughtering machine in higher levels. I've modded it to be a melee-caster, and boy does it ever melee-cast. I'm hardly ever late to any party, and often leaving a trail of death for the 'faster' classes to watch.

Sure he gets outshined in aspects that he's not good at, such as mobility, but the point of frost isn't to be mobile. It's to restrict your enemies mobility. You're too slow to avoid a charger about to wreck you? Why not make him slower than you are.

A good solution to the tanky players that can't keep up with their team? Say something about it. You've got chat and voice. Ask your buds to slow down and wait.

[Mebhin]

I agree with the OP.

If you're playing with competent players who can move faster, they'll leave you in the dust and kill everything. Thankfully that doesn't happen much since most people wally along shooting out windows and looting lockers. I don't find it to be THAT much of an issue. Especially since the slower frames are very powerful on defense maps.

I do find the lack of synergy to be a huge issue however. There's no real threat/aggro system in the game. A rhino can take hits but often unless you get to the enemies first you won't be able to do that. Since the game is a joke in terms of difficulty right now most players run off and solo on defense missions. Leaving a competent tank to sit by the pod and babysit killing stragglers. It's a mite boring.

[GrimmLiberty]

LOL, I'm new here, but I see the issue already.... I have been 'left' more than once by groups who finished LONG before I did, and I WAS sprinting as much as I could.... Don't get me wrong, solo my Rhino is da bomb, but in groups it is just annoying to everyone to be so slow.

Edited April 7, 2013 by GrimmLiberty

[Arzete]

Does this mean that Frost/Rhino is not worth getting? I just gathered all the materials and started the crafting process 2 days ago :( He's coming out of the Foundry tomorrow.

[Aerensiniac]

Does this mean that Frost/Rhino is not worth getting? I just gathered all the materials and started the crafting process 2 days ago :( He's coming out of the Foundry tomorrow.

No its not THAT bad. Its just that its pretty situational and if you know what you are doing, then you can easily get better performance out of even the starting frames.

Its ridiculous how much that sacrificed mobility means in combat not to mention in keeping up with your team.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Maslofski]

a friend has rhino and has 450 320 superpowered or so, and i have 540 540 with excalibur without superpowering, where is the logic for taking a tank? i even have 40% armor. this really needs some balance, so tanks atleast get more bonuses of shield and health mods.

[haseo669]

a friend has rhino and has 450 320 superpowered or so, and i have 540 540 with excalibur without superpowering, where is the logic for taking a tank? i even have 40% armor. this really needs some balance, so tanks atleast get more bonuses of shield and health mods.

Uhh.. that's because his rhino's not lvl 30 and your excalibur is lvl 30 correct me if i'm wrong, plus health and shields scale to your warframe's lvl. Tank frames can easily get 1000 shield with redirection.

Place Rush 30% on Frost's Line Polarity slot and it should only cost 6 cap. Faster than most warframes considering they don't have rush.

Edited April 7, 2013 by haseo669

[Thirdstar]

a friend has rhino and has 450 320 superpowered or so, and i have 540 540 with excalibur without superpowering, where is the logic for taking a tank? i even have 40% armor. this really needs some balance, so tanks atleast get more bonuses of shield and health mods.

Your friend has a much worse Redirection mod than you. My Rhino has 820 shields IIRC.

[Dasmir]

You are really complaining about the knockback and speed as a rhino/frost ?

About stats THE ONLY ONES WITH 150 ARMOR ARE RHINO AND FROST STOP THE " but but but but im a tank and hp/shiled is lower than you Q-Q"

[Arzete]

Can any dedicated Frost players tell me if he is really worth playing? I'm worried about my newly crafted/crafting Frost being a waste of materials and space. What mods should I use?

Edited April 7, 2013 by RayDrazon

[neKroMancer]

Can any dedicated Frost players tell me if he is really worth playing? I'm worried about my newly crafted/crafting Frost being a waste of materials and space. What mods should I use?

He's worth your credit/vomponent. Extremely handy in defense/boss mission with Snow globe. Freeze can stop charging Ancient with 25 energy. Avalanche radius got reduced from it's formr glory to a pittance but it's still powerful. Ice wave needs some love.

He's good but you have to know when to cast.

[Elhazzared]

I don't see frost as having a problem quite honestly, up till today I've played a Volt and Frost is actually a tiny little bit faster than me and I have no problems in keeping up with others. I do of course use my speed abillity however if I didn't want to use that I'd just increase my sprint speed which in the end would give me the same results.

I can definitly see Rhino's problem however since he is half as fast as a volt and that is pretty damn desperating. I hate moving slow, not because I dodge a lot in combats cause I often don't, even as a volt I just tank it most of the times since I got enough 840 shields and 460 health. Worse yet is if you want to be more tanky in Rhino then you lose more speed to get the other helmet. Being less mobile in combat is understandable, not being able to keep up with the team however is just plain bad.

I don't see Rhino being perma stunlocked nor frost. Frost as I said is faster than Volt already and I have no problems in weaving my way around infested and not being perma stunlocked. Rhino... Well he can't do that granted but you got 3 options. AoE damage, AoE stun, and best of all since it spends less energy, that rush he has. Surrounded? Well I'll just make my way through and everything is pulled out of my path, then I can shoot things down.

Also pointing out that saying that all other playes will elave you behind and stuff like that. Really no one does it and if it happens to you then you are playing online. Play private, play with friends and everyone will keep up with your pace.

Again I'm not trying to defend the lack of speed of Rhino, I will not agree on Frost since he has a pretty damn acceptable speed, butnot Rhino. If they increased Rhino's speed to 1.0 (Using wiki's values since I don't know the number DE uses), or in another words, if they doubled Rhino's base sprint speed, then he'd be doing his job right.

[Kindar]

I put a Rush mod in my Rhino frame, and he moves as fast as my Excal did. Half the time I don't even avoid the damage done to me, I just eat it, carving a path of death and destruction behind me. Oh, my shield ran out? Iron Skin! I can continue carving while my shields regenerate. I have had people just follow me, soaking up the exp and enjoying the easy run.

[Dasmir]

Most frames has 100% speed.

Loki is the only one with a natural 120-130% speed and rhino is the slowest with a whooping 50% speed (Iron skin + 150 armor he deserve it)

Frost has 105% speed.

[PaleMinerva]

I haven't felt a lack of speed on Rhino at all, since I came back to this.

[Aerensiniac]

You are really complaining about the knockback and speed as a rhino/frost ?

About stats THE ONLY ONES WITH 150 ARMOR ARE RHINO AND FROST STOP THE " but but but but im a tank and hp/shiled is lower than you Q-Q"

You Seem to be confused about how much that 150 armor matters. It wont make you take 150% less damage. Just saying bro.

Also: I did not claim that frost's hp and shield is lower than the rest of the frames. I said that at times it does not matter due to the sacrificed mobility.

Where dps frames dont take any damage at all due to their speed, rhino and frost can get stuck and be eaten alive, and even past all of that: you will be always tagging behind your teammates, collecting leftover loot.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[CaptMytre]

One buff to tanks should be that +armour should effect both shields and HP, not just HP.

[KazyJumps]

You Seem to be confused about how much that 150 armor matters. It wont make you take 150% less damage. Just saying bro.

True, but most frames have 50 or less armor. Steel Fiber at max level (110%) will cap you at 315 armor. A 50 armor frame will cap at 105, and a 10 armor frame (there's 3-4 of them) will cap at 21.

Assuming that the functionality of player armor hasn't change, going off of the info here: https://forums.warfr...you/#entry42883 having 315 armor means that enemies do 25% as much damage to your health as they normally would (well, 24.0963855%, if you want to be precise)

EDIT: infact going off that info having 150 armor means you take 40% base health damage

Edited April 7, 2013 by KazyJumps

[FaerellG]

Well, what does it mean to "tank"?

You have to understand that the original concept of Tanking invovles some strange math where every action you take generates some degree of threat with each enemy AI, and the "tank's" job was to have the highest Threat level so that the enemies would always be inclined to attack the tank. I don't see that sort of system in this game, and due to the faster paced mob killing, it seems rather pointless to keep track of aggro (I mean, I'm charging up Dual Heat swords and killing 4 guys in 1 blow. Threat what?)

So what is it you want with "tanking"? It really cannot be in the same sense that Tanking means in WoW because there's no real way to hold Aggro in this game.

How does the target priority in this game work? It really just seems like some things "take priority", and the AI is pretty dumb about it. For example, I'm playing a Loki.

I drop a Decoy and everyone immediately turns around and starts emptying rounds into my decoy. Great, I walk up and kill them all with a charged melee attack. It seems like decoy always works and is an AoE Taunt for a measly 25 energy. As a Loki, I tank spectacularly and I need no defensive stats to do it. Just give me more energy. That Decoy of mine soaks so much damage.

So yeah. When you're asking to be able to "tank" you might want to really consider what that means in terms of game mechanics.

1 final note: to draw on my experience playing LoL. Only noobs build all defense. Because if you built all defense then you're less of a threat than the rest of your team. Intelligent players won't target the hard shell. They'll go for the soft squishy teammates first. Kill them all. Then you're left alone. You're really defensive and that's great. But you do crap for damage, so the enemy can effectively ignore you. What is my reason for targeting the tank. Targeting the tank is dumb unless it serves a purpose.

[ZephyrFlow]

I don't have any issues that you guys are having in terms of speed and tankiness of frost. What I do most of the time is charge in, soak the gunfire, cast frost globe and my team mates usually just spread around after me.

In terms of speed, I do agree that frost is really slow, but why would you settle holding down shift+W when you can wave-dash? or kick-jump the walls to gain the distance between you and your mates?

Seriously, when update 7 came out and i dont have a sprint mod, i was doing wave-dash. heck, when i finally got my sprint mod and upgraded it, wave-dashing was faster! But yeah, its gonna put a strain in your left hand.