Playing A Tank Frame Is Actually More Penalizing Than Rewarding?

[Ferriwind]

I prefer having a warframe take on a certain role. Warframe is a co-op fps. As long as you have leveled weapons, you should be able to solo, but you won't have the incredible usefulness of specialized skills from allies. Balanced warframes are nice, but I don't need them in my team. Each warframe is suppose to be unique. Not counting aesthetics, that means powers need to fit their roles.

So, yea, I agree that warframes need to be specialized. But, actually, most of them are. Only Banshee seems to be in a wierd place. 1)knockback 2)stealth 3)debuff 4)mob killing uber ... randomness? nooooo thanks...

If Sonar could be used for stealth kills on high health enemies and Sonic Boom was a better escape, then I could see Banshee having a solid role as an that ranger(ranged dps/support) type.

Mostly it's just that many skills need to be reworked. Many players, myself included, feel this way.

[Aerensiniac]

True, but most frames have 50 or less armor. Steel Fiber at max level (110%) will cap you at 315 armor. A 50 armor frame will cap at 105, and a 10 armor frame (there's 3-4 of them) will cap at 21.

Assuming that the functionality of player armor hasn't change, going off of the info here: https://forums.warfr...you/#entry42883 having 315 armor means that enemies do 25% as much damage to your health as they normally would (well, 24.0963855%, if you want to be precise)

EDIT: infact going off that info having 150 armor means you take 40% base health damage

Thank you for this post, it was rather informative. That being said: I feel that all of this (+armor, health and shields) are nothing more than a crutch for tank classes. Instead of being a pro to the frame, it really is nothing more than prevention to make the class seem not completely useless.

Now why am i saying that?

You see walk and run speed doesnt seem to be much of a problem to anyone. Even i had no idea about how it can impact game play till i rolled frost. Yet: It defines how much time you take to close or create distance between your opponent(s), impacts how many times you get hit or whether you get hit at all, it influences your ability to keep up with your team not only in distance but kills, damage and every other stat as well.

Past that: Infested are the major example as to why Frost and Rhino have issues. Where i was not hit at all with my loki now im getting stunned, knocked and raped in a single go, and armor/shields/health are only there to prevent you from flat out dieing.

I can only repeat myself: Being able to soak damage is pointless when you can easily avoid taking any damage at all and have multiple times the performance in every other aspect as well.

Also as FaerellG pointed out: I can drop a decoy and it will do half a million times better job at tanking than Rhino and Frost combined. Not only will it direct damage away from you, it will also protect your entire party without the need of standing inside the snow globe.

Well, what does it mean to "tank"?

You have to understand that the original concept of Tanking invovles some strange math where every action you take generates some degree of threat with each enemy AI, and the "tank's" job was to have the highest Threat level so that the enemies would always be inclined to attack the tank. I don't see that sort of system in this game, and due to the faster paced mob killing, it seems rather pointless to keep track of aggro (I mean, I'm charging up Dual Heat swords and killing 4 guys in 1 blow. Threat what?)

So what is it you want with "tanking"? It really cannot be in the same sense that Tanking means in WoW because there's no real way to hold Aggro in this game.

How does the target priority in this game work? It really just seems like some things "take priority", and the AI is pretty dumb about it. For example, I'm playing a Loki.

I drop a Decoy and everyone immediately turns around and starts emptying rounds into my decoy. Great, I walk up and kill them all with a charged melee attack. It seems like decoy always works and is an AoE Taunt for a measly 25 energy. As a Loki, I tank spectacularly and I need no defensive stats to do it. Just give me more energy. That Decoy of mine soaks so much damage.

So yeah. When you're asking to be able to "tank" you might want to really consider what that means in terms of game mechanics.

1 final note: to draw on my experience playing LoL. Only noobs build all defense. Because if you built all defense then you're less of a threat than the rest of your team. Intelligent players won't target the hard shell. They'll go for the soft squishy teammates first. Kill them all. Then you're left alone. You're really defensive and that's great. But you do crap for damage, so the enemy can effectively ignore you. What is my reason for targeting the tank. Targeting the tank is dumb unless it serves a purpose.

Well, what i mean with tank is not really much of an importance.

Theoretically it would be a nice thing if Rhino and Frost could complement the party they are in by soaking damage for them (effectively: Yes. Tank for them), but thats only wishful thinking.

The main problem is what i wrote just above: All classes severely outperform Frost/Rhino and having more shields/health/armor is only a crutch to make up for the lack of speed on other classes. I assumed first that having high amounts of health/shields is an advantage. Now it turns out that its not a benefit but instead a necessity to make up for all of the handicaps that come with being slow.

Alas: no. Your shields and health are nowhere high enough to make up for the fact that you will be always running after your party, enter battles last, will soak more damage in general, fail to reach containers before your teammates, will knocked down and tossed around significantly more, will still fail to stand solidly on your feet against general threats that should be plaguing light frames, namely: Knockdown, stun, stagger, poison, etc.

Everything counted together: Bulk frames suck nano spores.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[KazyJumps]

Perhaps. I don't remember having any issues with my Rhino when I finished levelling him to 30 just after update 7 dropped. Of course, I haven't touched him since, but that's because a) I never really liked tank anyway b) speed is more fun c) I'm levelling all frames to 30 so I've been playing other sub 30 frames since and d) Mag is my favorite frame so during the brief periods between levelling a frame to 30 and finishing the next one in the foundry I play her.

Just out of curiosity do you ever stop moving in your rhino/frost? I ask to work out why you have a problem and I don't remember doing so. I always tended to just keep rolling forward, even if it meant leaving an enemy behind because he spawned behind me, only stopping for tough enemies (heavy greneer/ancients), it's just how I play* (assuming I'm not low on health/ammo ofc), in a group this tends to put me at the front by the end of a fight so I have the smallest travel time to reach the next group of enemies, if you tend to kill, then move foward till you see the next enemy, and stop to kill it, etc then I can see why you'd have a problem and I didn't.

*there are of course caveats to this, I stop if I'm ahead of the group and will go back to resurrect/help people, I just tend to always move forward in a fight in warframe.

[Aerensiniac]

Just out of curiosity do you ever stop moving in your rhino/frost?

No, since stopping to a stand still will get you killed no matter what frame you are using.

I prefer picking my targets based on LoS towards other enemies, so if the farthest enemy is sitting behind a box and i can engage it while the box covering me from the rest of the mobs, then i will run behind that box and deal with 1 enemy there, then work myself backwards while trying to stay covered as much as possible at the same time.

I rarely leave behind anything alive inclusive containers. Naturally this puts me at a disadvantage when it comes to reaching the next group of enemies/containers, and alas: There are also the infested which imho should not be able to toss around a heavy frame just as easily as a light one.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Imbaland]

The alternative to a speed reduction is a damage reduction.

You can't be essentially immortal, while being just as fast and doing just as much damage as other warframes. If you want the same speed, then your damage output needs to be halved.

[Aerensiniac]

The alternative to a speed reduction is a damage reduction.

You can't be essentially immortal, while being just as fast and doing just as much damage as other warframes. If you want the same speed, then your damage output needs to be halved.

Let me be a bit more visual with the issue at hand:

What you seemingly dont understand is that speed reduction equals damage, loot, survivability and overall performance reduction all in a single go.

Im not complaining about the fact that i am slow. Im complaining about the fact that i am slow and as a result i get to loot less, kill less, do less, have an overall value measured in "less".

Having a large health pool at present is not a benefit to Rhino and Frost, but a necessity to make up for the fact that they WILL be taking more damage and suck more in general. Its a crutch and not a pro.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Imbaland]

stuff

Then you must have less damage. As simple as that. I don't mind which route they take, it doesn't affect me. But either way, you are going to be slower, or you are going to do substantially less damage. That is the choice you made when you picked Rhino. I picked Loki first and subsequently struggle to do content solo. We must make do with the choices we made.

[Aerensiniac]

stuff

Let me spell it for you cause you are seemingly uninterested in longer sentences: Reduction in speed = reduction in damage

They did not reduce speed and increased/left damage. They reduced speed and as a result reduced every aspect of the frame INCLUSIVE damage potential.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[letir]

Let me spell it for you cause you are seemingly uninterested in longer sentences: Reduction in speed = reduction in damage

They did not reduce speed and increased/left damage. They reduced speed and as a result reduced every aspect of the frame INCLUSIVE damage potential.

What??? Noone can be faster than bullet, you know?

[Aerensiniac]

What??? Noone can be faster than bullet, you know?

In regards of defense:

Indeed, but anyone can be faster than the delayed aiming script of the enemies which will continue to shoot and attack to the last position you have been at 0.2 seconds earlier.

In regards of offense:

Indeed, but the speed of your bullet wont matter if you arrive late to the battle.

[Zed0]

The only problem I have with Rhino atm is speed.

In this case I think, that the mod:

Increase speed by +5% (that takes 6 mod points) is really crap. For only 5%.... 6 mod points takes up MASSIVE massive space.

It's either buff rhino's running or buff this mod. I say change it to 10% and make it 4 mod points.

[+] Plus

Orokin reactors.. Maybe they should give us 2 more mod slots??

[Elhazzared]

Again you people are being silly. What the hell is this non-sense about Frost having no speed? Are you guys blind? Frost is faster than Volt! Frost is in no way or form slow, he has about the same average speed as all other warframes except loki and rhino. Loki being ridiculously fast and rhino ridiculously slow.

Also if you as a tank don't know how to hold the aggro then you're a dumbass or your team mates are dumbasses, plain and simple. I can grab as much aggro as I want in this game and it's pretty damn simple. Walk first into a room (And let's not go over speed issues cause if you are behind, stop playing with idiots online and start playing private with friends) start firing at everything, heck if you enter first in a room alone everything will aggro just you. Your friends move after you and they will only be attacked if they attack someone and by that someone that they attacked only in 90% of the cases. If all your friends just go on killing one enemy at a time quickly they will never hold aggro or much aggro. Granted, this does not works for boss fights but everyone knows that boss fights need a redesign as far as scaling go into co-op.

Again I will agree that rhino needs to be put up to pair with other warframes in speed mostly not to make the game take twice as much time due to his speed going from room to room, but let's stop saying that this warframes are horrible when they are not.

[Aerensiniac]

Also if you as a tank don't know how to hold the aggro then you're a dumbass or your team mates are dumbasses, plain and simple.

Congratulations... you successfully called 95% of the community a dumbass...

I can grab as much aggro as I want in this game and it's pretty damn simple. Walk first into a room...

Aaand let me stop you right there cause you wont be walking as first into rooms unless you are playing private or "rushing", leaving behind everything you can inclusive drops, enemies, exp, craft mats, mods and the rest.

See im not really willing to do that, so as a conclusion i have an issue with the class and the whole notion of movement speed reduction.

[Gregio]

OP's biggest problem seems to be playing with randoms who don't give a rat's &#! about him, leaving his Rhino in the dust to fend for himself.

Well, OP, as said by two or three people, go make some friends and play Private with them. My friend has a Rhino and he keeps up with us pretty well because we're not rushing through the map to complete X and Y goal leaving him behind. We just keep moving and kill most stuff. Also, regardless of what frame you're using, Infested are easy. Get a frost gun and the slowest of classes can still kill everything from a distance.

[Elhazzared]

As I also said, I belive Rhino should have the speed increased, not frost, he's good as he is and I don't belive 85% of the community has had a problem figuring out aggro in this game when it's pretty damn simple. Enemies first shoot whomever they see first and then change targets accordingly to who engages them. Pretty simple behavior but also pretty damn logic.

And if you only want to play online, that is your problem, I don't want to play online and go with a group that neither knows how to work together or might not fit into my playstyle. I don't like to rush through everything, I like to fully explore and fully farm each and every mission. I will sometimes make exception, but not often. The optimal way to play this game is actually private games since the group will adapt to playstyles. I have played online 2 times and just go. No thanks, too bad.

[GrimmLiberty]

I see almost everyone missed my point with Rhino... and used the SAME TIRED LAME EXCUSE... "go play private or solo",,,, that is not a solution.

YES, it works, but you are immediately relegating them to 2nd class players who can't compete 'in the real world' and you are OK with it!?!

Edited April 7, 2013 by GrimmLiberty

[Aerensiniac]

I see almost everyone missed my point with Rhino... and used the SAME TIRED LAME EXCUSE... "go play private or solo",,,, that is not a solution.

YES, it works, but you are immediately relegating them to 2nd class players who can't compete 'in the real world' and you are OK with it!?!

Well said

[GrimmLiberty]

My feeling, because I have no facts to call it a thought, is that 50% is too slow, but 75% would be much better. I further feel at that speed I COULD sprint and keep up, so long as they weren't sprinting too... most of the time they aren't because they get slowed down by fighting....

OR

You could just let everyone who is alive get credit for the mission when 50% or more of the party make it to the exit... That seems like the simpler solution.

Edited April 7, 2013 by GrimmLiberty

[Aerensiniac]

Well, i will be leveling frost to 30 and then put it on the shelf cause the way it is currently it just sucks, along with Rhino.

I do not need a frame that has its shields/health/armor increased just in order to make up for its crippling disabilities.

All frost has taught me is to appreciate my loki.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Gregio]

I see almost everyone missed my point with Rhino... and used the SAME TIRED LAME EXCUSE... "go play private or solo",,,, that is not a solution.

YES, it works, but you are immediately relegating them to 2nd class players who can't compete 'in the real world' and you are OK with it!?!

You ignored everyone else's point, in thinking that Online mode is the "real world".

I don't play Online. Ever. I have a big enough number of friends that I always play Private and usually when the peeps are playing Warframe, there's 2 or 3 squads going on.

So, like I said, it just sounds like you need to go make some friends that care about you and your warframe or find some pubs who don't just rush everything.

Though I do agree with the guy above, 75% would be a good speed, I guess, I still think you're mostly wanting Rhino to be something it isn't.

In any game with defined roles, Tanks are able to solo, they're just slow, and in party games, people work AROUND the tank, not ahead of him. So the problem isn't speeding up Rhino to keep up with the others, but people moving with Rhino, and if that won't happen in public games, you should really just get out of them and find some private games.

It doesn't even need to be "friends", you could just post in the forum and look for a squad of other people interested in looting and more team-based team play.

[DRTGF]

Agree. Rework warframes plz for their skills to be more different.

volt,mag,frost,ash - they have almost the same ultimate.

IMHO,it would be better for more abilities like volt's shield and mag's pull (rather than volt's shock or ash's slice) and (also imho) tank classes will be much more popular when they will have not just surviving abbility (like an iron skin) but taunting or stunning abilities. volt's shield,mag's crush,or loki's unarming ability,or nyx's chaos would be much better on tanks because they provide CC and iron skin - not

[Imbaland]

Let me spell it for you cause you are seemingly uninterested in longer sentences: Reduction in speed = reduction in damage

They did not reduce speed and increased/left damage. They reduced speed and as a result reduced every aspect of the frame INCLUSIVE damage potential.

I don't really care what the final outcome is after a mobility nerf. It doesn't change the balance situation. If you want the mobility back, then you must lose damage output, that's all it comes down to. If you are already losing damage output as is, then hey, I guess you won't lose much when they give you back speed but make all your attacks do substantially less damage.

Win win?

[Aerensiniac]

I don't really care what the final outcome is after a mobility nerf. It doesn't change the balance situation. If you want the mobility back, then you must lose damage output, that's all it comes down to. If you are already losing damage output as is, then hey, I guess you won't lose much when they give you back speed but make all your attacks do substantially less damage.

Win win?

Okay, i will stop here. Please elaborate it for me what the hell do you mean by damage output.

All frames have access to the same weapons and thus the same "damage output".

The only difference is that some frames are so god damn slow, that they barely have a chance to shoot their weapons before light, fast frames mow everything down.

What you are saying makes less and less sense to me, so please explain.

[Imbaland]

Okay, i will stop here. Please elaborate it for me what the hell do you mean by damage output.

All frames have access to the same weapons and thus the same "damage output".

The only difference is that some frames are so god damn slow, that they barely have a chance to shoot their weapons before light, fast frames mow everything down.

What you are saying makes less and less sense to me, so please explain.

I don't know. Its not my game. The developers will have to think of some way to tone down something about the tank warframes.

Making them just as fast as other warframes obviously makes them overpowered.

Making them slower clearly annoys the people who play as those frames.

So the developers will have to come up with some way to make it balanced but fun. Damage reduction is the only other obvious avenue which can be looked at right now.

How to accomplish that? Who knows. Maybe nerfing the active abilities would be enough. Maybe giving them some kind of taunt only, no damage output abilities.

[Aquilus]

I play Rhino, and it's a powerful frame. The lack of speed doesn't actually make anything *harder*, it just means that you'll be worse at earning mods/credits because you take longer to complete levels, and you'll fall behind if you're playing with people using normal or fast frames who aren't awful at the game. Rush mods aren't very good for them, because they're a percentage increase based on the low base value, making the actual increase worse than what other frames get from the same mod.

For the people who mention the armour value. Seriously? Iron Skin is what makes him tanky, I'd trade the armour for a speed in a heartbeat. Armour doesn't mitigate damage to your shields, which is what you should be taking, as shield regenerate much more effectively than health. This makes armour a worthless stat, imo, as activate Iron Skin or taking cover for a few seconds negates its use.

Overall, I really don't see why a lower speed is a reasonable downside to "tanky" warframes. It means that you'll either slow down your entire party if they wait for you, or you won't be able to tank anything because the fight is over before you get there. You're getting increased survivability for lowering your ability to complete content at a reasonable rate, effectively trading fun for combat efficiency.

I know the devs said that they were looking into Rhino/Trinity speed a few months ago, but sadly it doesn't seem like they'll do anything about it. I guess I should just go back to my Loki, but to be honest it has just caused me to play less lately.