A Conversation About Warframe Ability Cooldowns

[Joyfulmama]

I would go for 'Hell Yes But Later' btw. If cooldowns become implemented, many skills have to be revamped to make up for the loss in consecutive casting

[notionphil]

'you can use it more often' does not necessarily mean using it is going to solve your problem

 

A dynamic energy system will encourage the right choice, even if that choice is the ultimate.

 

If that ultimate needs to be toned down or the other skills buffed up then that is necessary. A gun will still outperform shuriken if bladestorm is unavailable. Bladestorm does things a gun can't, a gun does things bladestorm can't. Shuriken, even though it costs less should do things that bladestorm can't do, or things that bladestorm's effects can't cover. It doesn't have to be more powerful, only different.

Ultimates shouldn't even really be considered 'ultimates'. Yes, they can be high cost powerful skills. But that doesn't mean they need to be the be all, end all of abilities. 

 

 

This is what's missing from the ability system in WF. Situational usage of abilities.

 

The problem is that ults are rarely situational (bc their situation is "kill all enemies around me"), but all of the other powers are. Thus in addition to being more cost effective etc, they are also almost always the best choice.

[SableSonata]

So you want to make Loki's have to cast invis, do what they can, and then hide in a corner for 7 to 10 seconds until their invis is off CD so that they can continue and survive the enemies looking in their direction with how squishy he is?

How would that not ruin the flow of gameplay?

How would that be fun?  Having to duck behind a crate or a wall constantly and sit their until your CD was done would turn Loki into a boring slog.

Especially at levels where Loki *needs* to be invisible to be able to survive and revive players.

Further, removing the abilities as mods would just grant players 4 extra mod slots + 18 mod points.  That would be a horrible idea.  We dont need even more mod slots and points to get even more OP.  Yet if you get rid of those 4 mod slots you are now ruining quite a few builds where people have formaed away a power slot or two.

And again, we had those "reasonable" CDs early on in CBT.  It didnt work because it led to playing like the Loki example above.  And people still only used one or two abilities because again:

Why would I ever bother to hit 1 as a frost to use freeze?  Its just a *horrible* ability that is basically worthless and would just interupt my shooting.  Why would I ever want to use it?

People would still only use the good abilities and never touch the bad ones, even if they are free.  Just slapping a CD on the abilities does NOT make the useful, good, or worth the interruption to your firing that they would cause.

And you want Loki to be nigh-invincible with no real drawback. If players aren't skilled enough to survive for 7 seconds, maybe they shouldn't be using Loki. You have a decoy, you can disarm enemies. I'd rather have a balanced, high-skill frame than an invincible one-trick pony.

 

Use the extra mods for defensive or utility mods, since Loki is evidently too frail for you. Odds are removing ability mods won't make anything too overpowered because many players only use one ability to begin with, so really they're gaining more like one slot and 7 points. Even with a Forma, it's still only 1 mod. 

 

If players aren't using an ability because their weapon outclasses it completely, maybe that ability needs a buff, or (gasp) maybe the weapon mods need to be reined in. "Weapons are grossly overpowered, so this won't solve anything and we shouldn't even try to make progress." It would be a better system; the fact that weapon mods are brutally overpowered does not stop it from being a better system. Your complaint seems to be that we shouldn't do it because for it to work best, DE would have to work on improving the balance of mods - which is something they should do regardless of whether or not they use cooldowns. 

 

tl;dr 

If you can't use radial disarm, decoy, and switch teleport to survive for 7 seconds without hiding behind a crate, maybe play a frame that isn't supposed to be a high-skill frame. I don't see how being practically invincible at all times is a very entertaining experience.

[IfritKajiTora]

All efficiency cut by Half.
Fleeting expertise- rank 0 +5% efficiency, max rank +30% efficiency
And that second efficiency mod too nerf-rank 0 +5%efficiency, max rank +15%efficiency.

So 100 energy will be maxed drop to 55 energy.

Edited June 17, 2014 by IfritKajiTora

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Personally, I absolutely loathe the idea of cooldowns being implemented into a fast paced game such as this one.  I do however know there's a bit of a glaring issue with power spam/usability in general.  The issue is trying to work out a sort of balance in there.

 

Low rank/new players clearly don't go around throwing abilities left and right, because energy as it stands is the limiter to our casting and thusly there just isn't enough energy to allow constant casting.  Streamline makes things a bit more "open" in that regard but then once Fleeting Expertise comes in all hek breaks loose.

 

People just enjoy using powers a lot, however those same powers allow us to trivialize almost any potential threat.  Because of the way Warframe is currently balanced (everyone is a glass cannon) it's hard to just straight remove power spamability since that's part of the main way in which we survive outside of the standard procedure of eradicating all life.  No frame can actively take damage to any moderate degree without near immediate death with their core stats aside from Valkyr.  The only three things that keep us alive are movement, CC, and instantly erasing all life that isn't allied.

 

For cooldowns to be properly implemented in a game like this... well we'd need a hard rebalancing of the entire game to not have it just be pathetic/bad.

Well, what would be the point of having abilities then if not to use them or build your warframe around them...that would make formas useless.....another mechanic that would be destroyed with cooldowns....um, many abilities in your statement need to be rephrased my friend....

 

Useless abilities list:

 

Loki's Decoy (just a teleportation relocation ability when dealing with lvl 16 and higher enemies...which is pathetic)

 

Frost:

 

Freeze: need I say more....its not chargeable...it has a duration and health break limit...a waste of 25 energy. (not to mention projectile matrix)

 

Ice Wave: You really need overextended on and Stretch for it to minor CC at least...the enemy is still shooting at you....sigh so...no...damage is fine...its utility is almost useless not quite. That hit box is horrible still.

 

Avalanche: Needs duration affects or completely removed for another ability instead of a flamenco dance that does nothing but P1$$ off your enemies and shoot you afterwards leaving you open to dying in tough situations

 

Saryn:

 

That poison dart crap is laughable that 1 just like makes me laugh cuz its like why do that when I can.....miasma?

 

Contagion:

 

Um...find myself forgetting the ability is equipped....because of the risk involved with melee is greater than reward.

 

Excalibur:

 

1.....just a mobility tool. Forget about using this ability outside of lvl 20s a waste of a cast when I can just use radial blind for 400% melee damage bonus.  Barely, causes any slash procs on any enemies so waste of a caste outside of t1 enemies.

 

3. Super Jump: really almost the dumbest ability in the game. The supporters of this ability idk make brain cells fry. It is useless....replaced by a more useful mod like flow or rage.

 

Mag:

 

Bullet Attractor:

 

yea, like anyone sees this one cast alot nuff said.

 

Crush: is like wtf....it tickles people for the most part....unless your playing low level just to feel good.

 

Oberon:

 

1 it just sucks....fireworks everywhere and no real work done...waste of 25 energy

 

2. nice rug....next 

 

3. maybe I can heal myself in time....damn naplam....next..

 

Hydroid:

 

1. nice knockdown...that's it?

 

Trinity:

 

Well of Wife....yea...something that does pretty much nothing when your in a pinch. I don't see anyone casting this on T4....

 

 

Valkyr:

 

2...stuns wayyy too short....

 

4....um i guess il keep punching till I run out of energy?

 

 

Ember:

 

Accelerant is nice....stuns way to short...damage meh...

 

Fire Blast: Waste of 75 energy.....replaced by a better mod 

 

World on Fire...is limited....so get killed 80% of the time after casting...what fun....Ember Players get embarrassed being downed like a squish toy with a ability that causes you to be in the line of fire so much.

 

Volt:

 

Shock: just for stunning purposes...giving breathing room to reload and all. (Unless dealing with corpus its ok)

 

Overload: small duration the range...makes you cringe...the damage reduction to grineer insanely useless to in most situations. I see less volts lately, and everyone knows why. Squish=dead frame....

 

Vauben:

 

tesla: just fun to throw crapload of them to shock enemies thats it...damage isn't even 100% electric proc but might be over the top if it were but who knows...never tested.

 

Nova:

 

Null Star....na ill just build her for mprime....and AMD 

 

Zephyr:

 

Tailwind: might as well slash dash/air dash ....excals gf i guess. Didn't think he was into birds all that much.

 

Divebomb: hmm nope....just save for 3 and 4. Kockdown awesome but dmg is meh

 

 

 

Go into the others later...getting tired....the sun sapped my soul....

[LukeAura]

Yes to cooldowns, remove energy altogether. 

That kind of system has already failed an in game test.

Let's not waste time bringing it back. 

Abilities are 'solve all your problems' buttons, and cooldowns only delay this, they don't fix it. They slow down the pace instead of upping the satisfaction behind using abilities. Cooldowns even in a fine tuned ability system will only delay the right choice in the right situation, if that right situation comes up twice in a row. They work in games with preset spawns, short detection ranges, or relatively infrequent enemy spawns where the choice of ability in combat can be planned farther ahead like most MMOs, and Borderlands. In Games like Warframe where enemy spawns are incredibly random, with massive aggro ranges, and very often, combat conditions can change and become unpredictable on a dime. Cooldowns short enough to handle a rapidly changing environment are too short to actually be cooldowns. This is why managing energy is much better for Warframe, and while yes, Cooldowns can be made better than the current energy system. A fully fleshed out energy system would be best. Even if that energy system has to be unique to each frame.

 

Edited June 18, 2014 by LukeAura

[CybrinZ]

How about just lowering the max energy cap? Could be done by nerfing Flow or the base energy of a Frame. Would promote better energy management and less spam.

 

Unless you happen to have a 75% efficiency build. 

[LasersGoPewPew]

........ why not completely remove the energy costs and put short cooldowns for 1s longer cooldowns for 2/3 and a mild but spammable cooldown on ults?.....

 

3-5 seconds isn't a long cooldown for the lesser powers at most 15 seconds for the cooldowns on ultimates (as they're the main source of damage at endgame anyway) it could add abit more timing and strategy to using abilities.