Let's Talk Lore...

[Zuijin]

The mention of the star in MagP's entry has always bothered me. The description is odd and implies that particular fight might have taken place in the void.

 

Of course, the source isn't a disinterested observer and his recollections might be inaccurate.

 

This lore bit creates as many questions as it answers and really needs more illumination.

 

I totally agree with your ideas of the blue star being in the Void... I imagined the Sentients as the inhabitants of the Void too, so it would have sense, but the Idea of the orokin empire controlling more than a single star system could be true at the same time. 

As far as we know, Void is some sort of dimension ("hellspace") situated near our reality, but not quite: this however  do not erase the possibility of more star's system under Orokin control in the Golden Era.

Nothing is certain for now.

[Quatrez]

The problem I have with this theory is that Tenno and technocite virus are different things, and the Lotus stress out in ODA mission that the technocite virus was a weapon to fight the Sentients, while the Tennos were used much later in the conflict. The Technocite virus predate the opening of the vaults of the Orokin and the deployment of the Tennos: we can infer that while the technocite virus was a doomsday weapon, the Tennos were considered even more dangerous than the virus itself.[/size]

 

While I think a connection between virus and warframes (not Tennos) is possible, I don't think Tennos and the Virus are apples from the same tree...[/size]

 

The Tenno's rebellion vs the Orokin could be explained in different ways and even justified if we consider the Orokin as despotic tyrants with little to no respect for human lives: in short, Tennos could have been the good guys, fighting for humanity freedom with terrific means. They are the Betrayer of their master, sure, but why we should believe the Orokin as benevolent rulers, when they reshaped Earth in their own private garden? Afterall, they kicked out billion of people from their world to build a sanctuary for them...[/size]

 

I think they were, at least, narcissistic despots, if not even egomaniacs... are we sure that Tennos were wrong when they freed mankind from the Orokin? :)[/size]

 

 [/size]

And in the Vor's Prize, the Corpus is labeled a "Secret merchant cult" from the Lotus. I can believe proto Corpus and Grineer were already there at the time of the Orokin, but they are different legacies: military's one for the grineer (Their degeneration is caused from numberless copy of the same DNA, meaning at least centuries of cloning: it is plausible they were already present in some way at the time of the Fall) and bureaucracy's one for the Corpus (they were programmed with brainwash or software connected to the brain to worship the Orokin and their technology, something they still do today).[/size]

But sir, since Warframe is the successor of the Dark Sector and the techno virus infested Hayden Tenno was the first Tenno. then the virus and the Warframe itself is the byproduct of the infestation. Hayden himself was the Excalibur. Yes Tenno is different with the infested, but the Warframe suit is craft from the infested gene and carry its original wearer power.

[arch111]

And may I ask why such an harsh judgement over the Tennos? :)

Mags Codex entry when the soldier looks at the Tenno. He seem more afraid of the creature then of the immiment battle or possible death.

So, Orokin < Sentient < Tenno.

Who wouldn't be afraid?

[Zuijin]

Mags Codex entry when the soldier looks at the Tenno. He seem more afraid of the creature then of the immiment battle or possible death.

So, Orokin < Sentient < Tenno.

Who wouldn't be afraid?

 

The fear could be a product of Orokin's propaganda or misinformation.

It's even possible the Orokin themselves spread lies about the Tennos in their time, to better hide "the twisted few" who returned from the Void during the Void Era, and close them in Vaults. But when the War with the sentientes hit them, they had to free the Tennos, and they discovered that the bad reputation of the Void Era survived with them.

And just to add something for the sake of discussion: would you consider Master Chief from the Halo series a sociopathic monster too? After all he too kills with no qualms, same as the Tenno...

Or degenerated clones and cultists of greed are so much better than aliens that this question is irrelevant? :)

I think we still lack too much context to label the action of the Tennos as wrong or right for sure.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Zuijin

[Zuijin]

But sir, since Warframe is the successor of the Dark Sector and the techno virus infested Hayden Tenno was the first Tenno. then the virus and the Warframe itself is the byproduct of the infestation. Hayden himself was the Excalibur. Yes Tenno is different with the infested, but the Warframe suit is craft from the infested gene and carry its original wearer power.

 

Mhh...Afaik Hayden Tenno could have been the first "Tenno" not the first Excalibur.

What this could imply is open to discussion: the Tennos could be descendant of Hayden, or test tubes humans with some DNA of Hayden in them.

Hayden Tenno could have been the "older model" of top spec ops for the military... the Orokin Empire could have used his frame, his DNA or whatever as a template to model their "Tennos". The name stayed to honor the prototype or give continuity to their lines of soldier, like an upgraded version.

But, while Hayden Tenno powers come from the technocite virus, the Tennos power come from the Void... which is quite a difference imo.

And as I've said, the only relationship atm between virus and frames is the fact that some (not all) warframe's system use plastids as resources (a disgusting nanite- infested tissue mass). Why a warframe system need tumor- like tissues? We don't know. The abilities of the technocite virus are so aberrant that the properties of its byproducts are an unknown.

[(PSN)Gage_VH]

 

Mhh...Afaik Hayden Tenno could have been the first "Tenno" not the first Excalibur.

 

What's defined as a Tenno?

 

Because I can't see Hayden being the first if he himself contracts it from Nemesis stabbing him at the beginning of the game.

[arch111]

I totally agree with your ideas of the blue star being in the Void... I imagined the Sentients as the inhabitants of the Void too, so it would have sense, but the Idea of the orokin empire controlling more than a single star system could be true at the same time. [/size]

As far as we know, Void is some sort of dimension ("hellspace") situated near our reality, but not quite: this however  do not erase the possibility of more star's system under Orokin control in the Golden Era.[/size]

Nothing is certain for now.[/size]

This is a possibility.

[Zuijin]

What's defined as a Tenno?

 

Because I can't see Hayden being the first if he himself contracts it from Nemesis stabbing him at the beginning of the game.

 

"Could have been"... and as you wrote, Nemesis would be the first Tenno... or the first prototype.

 

But I was thinking more along the lines of a brand name: like the Ferrari's prancing horse, that was in origin the symbol of an ace pilot (Francesco Baracca). The connection between the prancing horse and Ferrari is a given today, but in origin it was just a symbol lent as "good luck" charm.

 

The same could be true for the name "Tenno": from Hayden Tenno, infamous for his accomplishments against the technocite virus, to "The Tennos" infamous  for their accomplishments in the Void. 

Edited August 3, 2014 by Zuijin

[(PSN)Gage_VH]

 

"Could have been"... and as you wrote, Nemesis would be the first Tenno... or the first prototype.

 

But I was thinking more along the lines of a brand name: like the Ferrari's prancing horse, that was in origin the symbol of an ace pilot (Francesco Baracca). The connection between the prancing horse and Ferrari is a given today, but in origin it was just a symbol lent as "good luck" charm.

 

The same could be true for the name "Tenno".

 

Ah, that's a good way of thinking about it.

[arch111]

what of the Sentients then? What is the most common oppinon on where they came from and what they are?

I know most assume they could take over technology , as in robots and weapons. But what if the weapons used by the Orokin Empire was based , not on hardware and machines, but like the Infestation and Tenno was grown, bioweapinry?

The Corpus have found blueprits and base their tech on presumably Orokin designs. But we know that the Gholems were really weapons used agaibst the Sentients, something that obviously failed.

what if the "weapons used against us" was in fact biotech and the Tenno was a last effort to retaliate given their Void-mutations?

what then are the Sentients I wonder with their wormships and beam weapons and shields?

[Teqnologyque]

what then are the Sentients I wonder with their wormships and beam weapons and shields?

Organic Plasma?

 

I mean, its a long shot, but it could happen.

[arch111]

lotus have allways been panicky about the Grineer mining operations finding "energy weapons".

maby she knows they will find Sentient tech and become too powerful?

and for bioweapons check out Farscape and Babylon 5, Shadows.

[Zuijin]

what of the Sentients then? What is the most common oppinon on where they came from and what they are?

I know most assume they could take over technology , as in robots and weapons. But what if the weapons used by the Orokin Empire was based , not on hardware and machines, but like the Infestation and Tenno was grown, bioweapinry?

The Corpus have found blueprits and base their tech on presumably Orokin designs. But we know that the Gholems were really weapons used agaibst the Sentients, something that obviously failed.

what if the "weapons used against us" was in fact biotech and the Tenno was a last effort to retaliate given their Void-mutations?

what then are the Sentients I wonder with their wormships and beam weapons and shields?

 

My personal opinion is the Sentients are/were the inhabitants of the Void, being of more will than substance (thus the name Sentients): they had their space invaded by the Orokin in the Void Era, when the Orokin reaped the gifts of the Void.

But in time the Sentients understood the technology of the Orokin, now based or boosted with Void elements (energy weapons, particles beam, nyan cats and so on) and turned that technology against them.

The Orokin deployed technocite virus wherever the Sentients invaded, to stall the war and try to find a solution (like a nuke, but with no damage to the infrastructures), but in time the cost in morale and loss become simply too much to bear. In desperation, the Orokin opened their vault to release the Tennos, spawned from that same Void (hellspace).

The Tennos turned the tide of the war thanks to their demigod powers and were later deployed back to the Void to win the war once and for all (the mag prime codex)

Edited August 3, 2014 by Zuijin

[arch111]

Hmmm. By this logic tenno can be considered a human/Voider hybrid.

In other words "the few that returned from that hellspace, the outcasts, the rejects, became our saviors".

They could resist Sentient beamweapons (mag codex) and "strike in ways the enemy could not comprehend" .

A new Code was borne, of the old ways.

The Sentients were in rage that Orokin stole their people to experiment. These children would later be their doom, but allso the Doom of the Emperors when the truth was discovered by the Lotus and turned the Tenno against their makers, before they were all executed in the Arena.

Just mad ramblings, or is there something there?

[Zuijin]

Hmmm. By this logic tenno can be considered a human/Voider hybrid.

In other words "the few that returned from that hellspace, the outcasts, the rejects, became our saviors".

They could resist Sentient beamweapons (mag codex) and "strike in ways the enemy could not comprehend" .

A new Code was borne, of the old ways.

The Sentients were in rage that Orokin stole their people to experiment. These children would later be their doom, but allso the Doom of the Emperors when the truth was discovered by the Lotus and turned the Tenno against their makers, before they were all executed in the Arena.

Just mad ramblings, or is there something there?

 

While possible, I don't think the Tennos were turned against the Orokin by the Sentients... this is just personal opinion ofc, but I like to think the Tenno's rebellion was guided by a wish for freedom: for them and for mankind, both oppressed by the selfish masters the Orokin were, more than mumbo jumbo from the Sentients they defeated.

[vaugahn]

I don't think the sentients are from the void either. As far as we know they're from their own star system, and the void is uninhabited. 

[WarframeStigma]

I don't think the sentients are from the void either. As far as we know they're from their own star system, and the void is uninhabited. 

that would make sense seeing as the Tenno are void-based. if the Sentients had manipulation over technology, and if they were from the void, then they could've easily manipulated the technology of the Tenno..but then again, the Warframes are Orokin-based...well, at least the prime versions. so i'm not sure how the Tenno had the upper hand at all. but either way, i seriously doubt that the Sentients came from the void

[vaugahn]

that would make sense seeing as the Tenno are void-based. if the Sentients had manipulation over technology, and if they were from the void, then they could've easily manipulated the technology of the Tenno..but then again, the Warframes are Orokin-based...well, at least the prime versions. so i'm not sure how the Tenno had the upper hand at all. but either way, i seriously doubt that the Sentients came from the void

 

Well, the sentients were masters of technology somehow, so the only way they could defeat them was by harnessing void "magic"

[ElHefe]

Well, the sentients were masters of technology somehow, so the only way they could defeat them was by harnessing void "magic"

 

"Magic", eh?  Interesting take and fits with DE's ninja theme, but maybe it's simply a matter of tunnel vision

 

What Sentient techology was comprised of is sketchy at best, but seems to be highly sophisticated ...

1. Electronic counter measures (Excalibur Codex)

2. Energy weaponry (Mag Codex)

3. Interstellar/transdimensional travel (Mag Codex)

 

Before the Tenno, both sides focused on "hi tech"

Unfortunately for the Orokin, their efforts backfired as the Sentients could adapt more quickly

 

It was Tenno "low tech" (gun and blade) used in a novel manner (warframe, Void energy) that gave them the edge over the Sentients

 

So rather that it being that "any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be magic" (Arthur C. Clarke), perhaps the converse statement is applicable:  "for any sufficiently advanced civilization, primitive technology will appear to be magic"

[vaugahn]

"Magic", eh?  Interesting take and fits with DE's ninja theme, but maybe it's simply a matter of tunnel vision

 

What Sentient techology was comprised of is sketchy at best, but seems to be highly sophisticated ...

1. Electronic counter measures (Excalibur Codex)

2. Energy weaponry (Mag Codex)

3. Interstellar/transdimensional travel (Mag Codex)

 

Before the Tenno, both sides focused on "hi tech"

Unfortunately for the Orokin, their efforts backfired as the Sentients could adapt more quickly

 

It was Tenno "low tech" (gun and blade) used in a novel manner (warframe, Void energy) that gave them the edge over the Sentients

 

So rather that it being that "any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be magic" (Arthur C. Clarke), perhaps the converse statement is applicable:  "for any sufficiently advanced civilization, primitive technology will appear to be magic"

 

Well what I got from the excal codex was that the sentients are masters of science. They're possibly much older than the Orokin, and they have vast knowledge of the material sciences to the point where they can bend technology against its masters.

 

To fight this, the Orokin turned to people wielding powers born from a place science and reason could never hope to understand.

[ElHefe]

Well what I got from the excal codex was that the sentients are masters of science. They're possibly much older than the Orokin, and they have vast knowledge of the material sciences to the point where they can bend technology against its masters.

 

To fight this, the Orokin turned to people wielding powers born from a place science and reason could never hope to understand.

 

Ah, I think I get your point ... you mean to say "ANY science and reason" - Orokin or Sentient

Hmmm ... although it works, it is vaguely unsatisfying (but that's because I am an old fashioned reductionist)

 

[Zuijin]

"Magic", eh?  Interesting take and fits with DE's ninja theme, but maybe it's simply a matter of tunnel vision

 

What Sentient techology was comprised of is sketchy at best, but seems to be highly sophisticated ...

1. Electronic counter measures (Excalibur Codex)

2. Energy weaponry (Mag Codex)

3. Interstellar/transdimensional travel (Mag Codex)

 

Before the Tenno, both sides focused on "hi tech"

Unfortunately for the Orokin, their efforts backfired as the Sentients could adapt more quickly

 

It was Tenno "low tech" (gun and blade) used in a novel manner (warframe, Void energy) that gave them the edge over the Sentients

 

So rather that it being that "any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be magic" (Arthur C. Clarke), perhaps the converse statement is applicable:  "for any sufficiently advanced civilization, primitive technology will appear to be magic"

 

Or maybe, "kinetic Weapons are just better": in worlds, and in wars, where energy weapons and defenses against them were the norm, the almost forgotten kinetic weapons pierced an unseen weak points, spawned from over reliance on energy weapons. Low tech, cheap solutions triumphed vs high tech, expansive ones (like the DH.98 de Havilland Mosquito or "the Wooden Wonder": a bomber fighter airplane built during WWII, made of wood, which had almost higher specs of every other plane made of metal at the time).

Edited August 4, 2014 by Zuijin

[ElHefe]

Or maybe, "kinetic Weapons are just better" ...

 

Yes, you got my point ...

 

However, even as inefficient as momentum transfer (or KE) weapons are (exothermic propellant projectiles, manual concussive impact or cutting), currently they are three times better than directed electromagnetic (DEM) energy weapons

 

Consider:

1. Both systems require a potential energy source and a means to transduce it - present day guns are about 30% energy conversion efficient while lasers are only about 10%

2. Momentum transfer suffers losses related to ballistic friction (i.e. not a perfect vacuum) and terminal target impact deformation but shock waves are transmitted at speed of sound in the target material

3. EM suffers losses related to scattering (again, assuming not a perfect vacuum) and terminal target absorption and reflection (which varies with angle of incidence just like a bullet) but burn through is typically slower than KE based shock wave transmission

 

BUT where directed energy weapons "shine" over legacy weapons include:

1. Superior aiming with true line of sight targeting

2. Faster time to target (speed of light)

3. Recoilless

4. Faster time to retarget (recoilless)

5. Greater adjustability of output

 

Oh, for the naysayers out there who think that "efficiency" isn't important in a gun, go ask a gun smith manufacturer if it matters to them ...

 

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

The direct energy transfer of a weapon isn't what makes it dangerous. Cavitation, direct tissue damage, and pain reactions all factor in to the stopping power of a weapon. Our current laser weapons are used in a different role, mostly to burn out electronics and damage aircraft flight equipment. We can assume in the future they would have laser anti-personnel weapons, although most Orokin weapons that we see seem to use solid projectiles.  

 

A bullet would work in space, although missiles would be the preferred ship-to-ship weapon.

[ElHefe]

@ vaugahn ... no disagreement, was explicitly stated in my post under the second "bullet" point :)