Fundamental Problems (and suggested Solutions) regarding Warframe Specialization and Power Usage

[Sealgaire]

I like the energy system for that very reason. It allows versatility when deciding which powers to use. Do I want to activate cheaper powers more often or save up for a bad situation? A cooldown system would make it impossible to slash dash twice in rapid succession for example, which I do all the time. With cooldowns you're removing the resource management aspect and people will just spam their abilities as soon as the cooldown ends.

[neKroMancer]

The current skill tree is based on 4 powers that each frame possess. Warframe can be absurdly tanky with multiple 70% shield capacity stack on themselves.

I purpose a more traditional skill tree - Each frame has 6 branches to take, 4 for powers and 2 for passive. And not enough points to max everything.

4 Power branches will have shared mod slot between them which will have a restriction : only power based mod can be equipped in these slots (range, damage, efficiency)

2 Passive branches will be dedicated to durability/energy and melee/weapon damage. Mod slots in these two branches will be allocated to corresponding aspect of the branches.

This need a big revamp, of course. However, players will be able to customized their frames more than ever. You want to play a tank - why take power max when you can directly spend your points in health/shield. However, doing so means you will have less energy to cast powers. Melee and range damage will have to be balanced by players. Do I enjoy slsahing things into mincemeat or safely shoot things from afar? or both? Take your pick.

We now have roles to play : Tank, Caster, Shooter, Slasher, etc. MIx and Match.

You'll no longer be able to spam shield capacity mod in all available slots. Thus eliminating end game trouble when you got 10K shield and even a boss can't make a dent on it (well, I like it but obviously - it needs to go away).

Now we are left with power system. Look like DE are working on it and I'll wait and see what it look like since multiple alternatives were already presented on the board.

[Rolingachu]

Issue #1: Powers are not a significant enough element of WARFRAME currently

As we all know, WARFRAME is a F2P TPS that allows players to shoot, slash, and use distinctive powers to eliminate enemies and complete missions. While some warframes are meant to excel either in range, melee, or power usage, there exists a fundamental flaw in the design for power usage as the game currently stands. Consider the Volt waframe. It is ADVERTISED in its description as being an alternative to typical run and shoot gameplay for those who are more interested in relying on playing the game using powers.

Unfortunately, though, regardless of the warframe, players will necessarily end up shooting or slashing through most of the levels. The warframe powers, which are currently the only differentiating factors among the warframes, are used rarely. There won't always be power orbs lying around for players to spam abilities; players need to save their power for when they encounter rough situations or risk mission failure. Some might assert that warframe powers SHOULD serve as a failsafe in the event of being pinned down or forced into a corner, but I fiercly disagree with that. If a player picks volt or ember, that player is clearly more interested in utilizing powers than in running around shooting and slashing (not that he is completely uninterested in shooting and slashing, just that picking one of these two warframes indicates a general interest in powers). Why not instead allow volt and ember players to use their abilities regularly as they indicated that they wanted to from the outset?

This, of course, doesn't ONLY apply to volt and ember players. I personally play Loki, and I can say with confidence that if I could regularly use swap teleport or invisibility, the game would be that much more fun, dynamic, and varied (the ability to regularly use powers would also allow Loki players the option to play the game stealthily as the lore intended for tenno to be, but that is another story :3). Although I haven't yet played as any other warframes, I can say with confidence that regular abilitiy use would be more fun as ANY warframe.

Having said all of this, ability use should certainly not remain completely unrestricted. How absurd would it be if players could just spam their 100 power abilities and blow up everything on the screen continuously. My suggestion for altering the current power usage system is as follows:

Remove Power Orbs, Add a Power Regeneration Stat, Add Skill Cooldowns, Alter Power Numbers/Damage if Required

What would these changes accomplish? Removing Power Orbs altogether and instead adding in a Power Regeneration stat would allow for regular use of abilities. Adding skill cooldowns would prevent players from relying fully on powers and from spamming abilities that might be considered too powerful when spammed. If powers are currently perceived as being too strong to use without power restriction, adjust the damage on those powers to make them reasonably balanced.

I agree with almost all of this. The energy issue must be solved, specially on the most "power users frames" like Ember and Volt. For me the ideal solution is the cooldown/energy regen, instead of a team of 4 looking for energy to spam skills all around.

Let's say for example an Energy Regen of 0.5 x 4secs wich gives us the amount of 15 Energy x min, with mods for the frames to improve that.

And about the cooldowns, for example the Slash Dash From Excalibur with 1 min of cooldown, Radial Blind with 30 secs cooldown, and also mods to improve the cooldown or energy cost.

This are just examples, but is pretty much the idea, and i believe is totally functional.

Issue #2: There is not enough variability among playable warframes

Another major issue that I've seen in this game is that there is simply not enough diversity among the playable warframes. The only difference among the frames so far is their abilities (which are currently only very rarely used during missions, as I explained above); from what I have been able to tell, the upgrade trees for the warframes are the same (correct me if I am wrong here). I just read in another post that the Rhino has the same amount of shield/health upgrades available as any other warframe...that, in my opinion, clearly should not be. The Rhino warframe, clearly intended to be a tanky, melee-oriented warframe, should have more defensive upgrade stats available than Volt or Ember, for example. I read another post recently in which the original poster asked what class is best for specializing in melee abilities; the resounding community response was that there is literally almost NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL between the playable warframes in this regard, which is silly! The ability to play and build unique characters has always been crucial to games and is what keeps them fun and fresh.

With that said, I posit the following with the aim of significantly differentiating the warframes:

Modify Upgrade Paths to be Unique for Each Warframe, Add New Stats to Warframe Upgrade Paths, Make Upgrade Paths NON-MAXABLE for both Warframes and Weapons

Agree again, there's too little differences on warframes stats and gameplay, beside their skills.

About the warframes differences, there could be different animations for the frames, for example distinctive hits on the Melee focused frames like ash or special moves, or something like that. And also Exclusive mods to improve the best of all frames, knockback chance on rhino's melee hits more hp/shield.

As the state of the game right now, everyone can choose his frame based on the skills he like the most, cause besides that, all the frames are the same. I think there must be different roles for the different frames, i wanna see a Rhino tanking a horde while a volt is throwing skills from a safe position and an excalibur is shooting like crazy, for example.

[Malachia]

Agree on all of these points except the part aobut cooldowns.

You cant have both energy restrictions and cooldowns. Cooldowns mean theres no trade off on using one ability and not the other.

I think the best way to solve this would be to limit ability use to small cooldowns, lower their strength (by alot for some, Slash Dash should be the number 4 ability >.>) but make each ability's cooldown global, meaning if I use Slash Dash and it has a 5 sec cooldown, I cant use any other ability for 5 seconds, but Super Jump has only a 1 sec cooldown, the global cooldown after using Super Jump is 1 sec.

Similar to Mass Effect 2\3 cooldown system.

[Ronyn]

We now have roles to play : Tank, Caster, Shooter, Slasher, etc. MIx and Match.

As the state of the game right now, everyone can choose his frame based on the skills he like the most, cause besides that, all the frames are the same. I think there must be different roles for the different frames, i wanna see a Rhino tanking a horde while a volt is throwing skills from a safe position and an excalibur is shooting like crazy, for example.

Right now....just using the existing powers and mods.....

Rhino can tank a lot if he can keep iron skin up and use the rhino stomp when surrounded. use sheild mods to help.

Volt can use his speed ability to stay out of enemy reach and use his other skills to electrocute them. use power efficiency mods to help.

Excalibur, when focused on shooting, can use a combonation of super jump to gain height in open maps, slash dash to move across areas and raidal blind to keep enemies blinded when they get close. Use sprint speed mods to help.

Guys.

I am ALL for expanding on the list of options on builds, we certainly need something early game to initially distinnquish the frames from each other and (most notably) the power/energy collection and balance need work because it keeps us from doing the strategies I present above often enough to remember that they are there. lol

But seriously if you want to play a certain "role" you can build yourself into one.

The system needs to grow, it needs A LOT of work on the numbers but why are we acting like the tools to make roles dont already exist within it?

You'll no longer be able to spam shield capacity mod in all available slots. Thus eliminating end game trouble when you got 10K shield and even a boss can't make a dent on it (well, I like it but obviously - it needs to go away).

This is a problem that DE is aware of, acknowledge that it breaks the game, and will be fixing soon.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ronyn

[Mak_Gohae]

Havent read all posts but what about getting energy back from every kill?

[Ronyn]

Havent read all posts but what about getting energy back from every kill?

On the right track but would leave trinity (the healer) in a bad spot...

[neKroMancer]

I realised that there're already existing tools, mods, to modify our frames, shape them into what we want them to be. But do you want your role to be limited by whatever mods the game decide to randomly generate while you're playing?

I like mods but, IMO, it's an extension of skill tree. If the skill tree isn't well-designed in the first place then we will eventually run into the same problem over and over again. There's no guarantee that which mod will be the next 'game breaking' and need to be readjusted.

The current skill tree doesn't offer much in term of varieties. It doesn't represent your warframes, it doesn't represent their roles. It has almost no role in the current setting since you will be able to max all of your skills and unlock all of your mod slots once you hit Lv30. It doesn't offer any passives apart from shield/health and power max. In fact it does a bad job represent my frames and my playstyle for each frame.

It lacks personality.

[oGsShadow]

I really like everything mentioned in the original post. Right now all warframes are far too similar for whats advertised in each case. Stat differeniation would be a good first step and changing the way powers/energy work is something I really hope will come. Powers need to be able to go off more often to really make your character feel unique.

[Ronyn]

I realised that there're already existing tools, mods, to modify our frames, shape them into what we want them to be. But do you want your role to be limited by whatever mods the game decide to randomly generate while you're playing?

No, in fact I don't like how COMPLETELY random the mods are.

My freind you have hit on something important.

What if there was some way to affect what mods you get, how they work, who you get them from...or break them down and/or combine them into something else.

Like some other loot based systems where much of the customization comes from how you break down and recombine drops into something more fitting to your tastes.

In this line of thinking lies another possible answer to the problem.

An answer that isnt as inherently constricting as the originally proposed solution.

How about mod sets (in the veign of armor sets in diablo) that grant specific, powerful bonuses when combined on a frame.

How about a special starting mod with a powerful effect that gives a warframe a very unique feel early on but can be replaced if so desired.

etc...

I understand and agree with the want of more options and a way to make my frame more MINE.

It is this common predisposition for a system with less freedom that boggles my mind.

As though we have to chose between a system where the game pushes each frame in a certain direction and true roles.

We do not.

If we seek solutions why not look for some without common constraints?

I like mods but, IMO, it's an extension of skill tree. If the skill tree isn't well-designed in the first place then we will eventually run into the same problem over and over again. There's no guarantee that which mod will be the next 'game breaking' and need to be readjusted.

Mods, like any addition one can place on a character, can be anything from small adjustments to the true depth of a system.

As for no garuntee which wil be game breaking and need adjustment..well that same thing can be said about any aspect of customization.

The current skill tree doesn't offer much in term of varieties. It doesn't represent your warframes, it doesn't represent their roles. It has almost no role in the current setting since you will be able to max all of your skills and unlock all of your mod slots once you hit Lv30. It doesn't offer any passives apart from shield/health and power max. In fact it does a bad job represent my frames and my playstyle for each frame.

This is a misrepresentation.

While you can unlock every mod in the tree it isnt fair to say "Max out" because that indicates one has reached the pinicle of potential.

Based on what I euip compared to what you equip our frames can have very different levels of sheilds, energy efficiency, melee damage, run speed...etc.

So, by definition, our two frames cannot have every possible statistic maxed out at the same time.

We will have to pick and choose, tailer the mods to our desired role and play style.

Like just about every game in this genre, everyone gets basic improvements to health and energy but it is the degree beyond that where we see roles and specialization.

Warframes existing system can be expanded upon to acheive the desired results without shifting towards more contraints.

It lacks personality.

Cant really argue with this one...such a subjective statement.

But I think I understand the general sentiment.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ronyn

[MegatechBody]

Can we please not put some of the more fun and less destructively effective abilities on cooldown? Yeah overload should be on cooldown and maybe shock but why would you ever put electric shield or speed on cooldown. Same goes for super jump or loki's teleport. That's just taking the fun away.

I'm a fan of the random mods because it adds an element of luck into the game instead of pure grindy-ness. It keeps me playing the game with other people and helping them do the bosses they need just because I might get some cool mod to drop. I can play any mission in the game and still get a mod that might be useful to me and as a result can help any player with any mission they want help with.

Edited January 10, 2013 by MegatechBody

[Ronyn]

Can we please not put some of the more fun and less destructively effective abilities on cooldown? Yeah overload should be on cooldown and maybe shock but why would you ever put electric shield or speed on cooldown. Same goes for super jump or loki's teleport. That's just taking the fun away.

indeed.

Energy system gives more flexibility than cds.

id rather we focus on fixing it than changing it.

I'm a fan of the random mods because it adds an element of luck into the game instead of pure grindy-ness. It keeps me playing the game with other people and helping them do the bosses they need just because I might get some cool mod to drop. I can play any mission in the game and still get a mod that might be useful to me and as a result can help any player with any mission they want help with.

Random mods can be great. I'm not trying to get rid of them because they serve these games very well.

Random mods have its place but it doesnt need to be COMPELTELY random with no way to modify any of it.

Torchlight 2 for example has a whole system of how you mess with the gear you find.

Still random but there is an element of effort and planing that can really change things.

Or the idea of certain enemies drop certain types of mods at a higher percentage.

etc...

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ronyn

[Mak_Gohae]

On the right track but would leave trinity (the healer) in a bad spot...

If all the Warframes are being critiqued about being very similar how does that warframe escape this?

Do they actually just stay back and heal?

Edited January 10, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[MegatechBody]

If all the Warframes are being critiqued are being very similar how does that warframe escape this?

Do they actually just stay back and heal?

In Warhammer Online there were classes which gained their ability to heal by using their damage based abilities. You actually gained a number of points you could use toward healing abilities for each damaging ability used.

Edited January 10, 2013 by MegatechBody

[colorize]

I have the opposite problem - currently with artifacts that give mana the Volt frame is incredibly OP and can spam it's 4 ability. There have been other posts on this so I won't go into it really. But it is nice to be able to spam skills now that I've finally gotten some nice drops. Prior to this I've also mentioned that I thought the skill use was fine but now that I've accessed the ability to spam skills what I expected then also held true. The game has become trivial in its difficulty. Cant wait for the next balance patch.

Also regarding the Volt issue, please make the skill be line of site only, and reduce its radius. It's incredibly OP right now with the artifacts in combination.

[zealazorius]

IMO the skills are fine the way they are. The only change they should implement is make every warframe have 1 spammable skill that has a cooldown of 5~15 seconds. Certainly some skills are too powerful on a cooldown, like all the 4th skills. However, we could make it so certain skills are actually worth using in every engagement; whether it be once a fight or 3~4 times a fight. It's against our interest to have energy regeneration due to the imbalance it would bring to other things like energy orb recovery that we've already gotten so used to. The current energy system is uniquely rare in it's kind compared to the broad number of games out there and serves as a keystone for differentiating Warframe from the numbers. With the inclusion of cooldown on a few skills, the game would see the balancing it needs that would elevate it beyond the current slash and shoot play style.

Consider these: Loki's "Switch Teleport" and Mag's "Bullet Attractor"

Loki's ST serves to only be distraction and is fairly risky to execute, but it's also one of those cool moves we'd like to use just for fun without turning the tide of battle instantly. If given a cooldown instead of a 75 Energy cost we'd get more a consistent use of it every fight to spice things up for Loki players. A 10 or 15 second cooldown would allow us to rely on it more while being able to utilize our other skills to provide effective crowd control, just as Loki was intended to do.

Mag's BA has a distinctive effectiveness to it that trumps all the other skills when brought to the field. It allows the user to take down priority targets such as the Heavy Gunners or Rocket Launchers, but at a 75 Energy cost it becomes obsolete compared to Mag's "Crush" skill. If it were to go on a 15~20 second cooldown, we'd see a lot more uses in it an not get locked out of clutch-triggering the Crush in dire moments.

[Ronyn]

If all the Warframes are being critiqued about being very similar how does that warframe escape this?

Do they actually just stay back and heal?

This kind of topic comes up a lot.

Often with the statement of "all frame play the same except for trinity"

Either way, the core gameplay of the game is shooting/slashing and remains so for every frame.

The amount of ability use is very much tied to energy storage, collection and efficiency.

So depending on your mod set up and how often you get the blue orbs you may or may not be able to keep abilities going like crazy through most of the fights.

In Warhammer Online there were classes which gained their ability to heal by using their damage based abilities. You actually gained a number of points you could use toward healing abilities for each damaging ability used.

I am a big fan of those kinds of mechanics.

[The-Blacksmith]

I'd like to see a differentiation in base stats for warframes at least. For instance, the Rhino could have stats focused more on defense, Volt could have more base energy, Excalibur could be balanced all round, etc. It makes sense, given the look/feel/description of the warframes themselves. This shouldn't be on a level where you are forced into a role based on your warframe choice. Volts could still build - through skill and mod choice - to be tanky, but with their increased base energy for example, they could rely more on their shield/speed boost spam than just flat out stat increases.

I don't think the skill trees need to be changed so there are different levels of damage/health/armour/whatever per warframe, but I do think that you shouldn't be able to max out everything on a warframe. Add more upgrade paths, thus allowing the player to choose - do I want my Rhino to be a damage dealing beast, or do I want to focus on defense? Having a maxxed out warframe with all upgrades seems rather pointless, and pseudo-customisation. If the maxxed out warframes are all going to have the same skills, then why have skills at all? Why not just passive stat upgrades on level? Make it a real choice, and a real customisation that -matters-.

Then on top of that, you have mods adding further customisation.

As for the energy changes - I don't know where I sit on that. It seems (though I have limited experience) that we go from using an ability once or twice a level at early stages, to literally spamming them non stop at higher levels when everyone runs with energy siphon. SOMETHING needs to be done to bring these extremes closer to the middle, where you can use your abilities more freely early on, but it's not just a lolspamfest where everything dies instantly later on.

[TheRealTuna]

I find the testimonies from higher level players to be interesting; I didn't realize that at higher levels, players could actually spam abilities. As a lower level player (25 Loki), like I said in my original post, I am rarely able to use abilities during missions. I definitely agree with Lionsbane when he says that there needs to be some kind of balancing done to increase the ability to use spells at lower levels and reduce the spammability of them at later levels.

I still definitely, DEFINITELY stand by all of what I said regarding warframe specialization though. As they are, warframes are just too much alike, and mods are not enough of a differentiating factor.

Keep em comin! :D

[TheRealTuna]

Bump in the hopes that a DE Dev will stumble upon this thread and offer some insight as to whether or not these changes may actually be considered :D

[GenericBadGuy]

I think a lot of people need to think of the energy and skill system without the current skills in the game. If the system were changed the skills would change too, so do you think the game would be better off with some of the OPs suggestions if you ignore how the individual skills fuction currently (things like cloak, charge, etc.)?

Edited January 11, 2013 by GenericBadGuy

[Ronyn]

Bump in the hopes that a DE Dev will stumble upon this thread and offer some insight as to whether or not these changes may actually be considered :D

I'd like to hear more myself.

There have been many threads on this subject but no developer response indicating where they stand on it yet.

other than to say that they will be giving us more enrgy to play with in some way.

I think a lot of people need to think of the energy and skill system without the current skills in the game. If the system were changed the skills would change too, so do you think the game would be better off with some of the OPs suggestions if you ignore how the individual skills fuction currently (things like cloak, charge, etc.)?

Yeah...

This is really impiortant and needs to be heavily addressed before we get into a bunch of other changes to the system.

The powers have the potential to greatly change how the frames play.

When excalibers super jump cost 75 energy it was more or less rarely used as the cost was too high for what you got.

Now that it costs 10 energy man folks use it to launch themselves in and out of close combat often enough to greatly change how the frame plays.

The only change was in how much it cost, deciding how often it is used and so how much it changes the game.

If Rhino had iron skin up a lot he would be extremely tanky like people ask for.

If Volt could hurl lightning more often he would be the ranged "caster" people ask for.

If Loki could switch teleport more often he would be a more effective trickster people ask for.

etc..etc..

The real effect that powers can have on the frames is considerable.

But the specifics of cost to replenishment is not balanced yet.

cant just make energy too easy to get at the current set up or peopel will just spam their uber power...

cant just make it too hard to get or people will never use their smaller powers.

The powers need to be individually tweaked at cost and effect to get the desired result.

And the other problem is that these powers dont all kick in till mid way through leveling.

Early game frames feel very similar but end game the powers change them to a huge degree.

I'd recomend giving one of the more signiture powers, with a low energy cost/high energy efficiency to every frame at the start.

Then make sure end game wasnt an uber power spam fest.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Ronyn

[svnhddbst]

they should make a firefall style "vote on an idea to prioritize" so i can vote these things up and actually make a difference

also i think that being able to max out everything in your tree if you have the dedication is the main draw of rpg systems. "you might be weak at teh start but with time and dedication you will become a god" tosound as generic as possible

Edited January 12, 2013 by svnhddbst