Pvp Vs Pve Debate

[Sophax]

Its not VS. They don't have to compete with each other.

[Kohira]

Its not VS. They don't have to compete with each other.

Exactly. They have to complete each other. The same way a man does with a woman.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

Oh you mean 8 people on a mission/in PVP wouldnt lag like hell?

the skills arent simply made for PVP.... and besides that. You know that adding a "good" PVP will take so much time they could actually use to make new content for the main game.....

you do know that some of these devs made a really good pvp arena game before, right? Besides they said YET, a pvp is probably in plans just not coming anytime soon due a lot of other things.

LAG? it can be fixed, there has been lag these last weeks probably because of the great and unexpected flow of new players due PAX and some famous youtubers promoting the game, but that only means that the game it's growing and that's a good thing.

Edited April 10, 2013 by g43riel

[nohwone]

Its not VS. They don't have to compete with each other.

its vs because i wanted to see the reasons of those who sided on approving the pvp and those who did not and wish for the pve to remain the same, plus it wouldn't make this into a debate, that seems to be crumbling, it would be another thread full of arguments .

[Venarge]

you do know that some of these devs made a really good pvp arena game before, right? Besides they said YET, a pvp is probably in plans just not coming anytime soon due a lot of other things.

LAG? it can be fixed, there has been lag these last weeks probably because of the great and unexpected flow of new players due PAX and some famous youtubers promoting the game, but that only means that the game it's growing and that's a good thing.

PVP is probably in plans? You do know that this is a friendly way of saying no PVP? hmm. So what, they created good PVP games. Why does this game need any? It was designed as PVE. The skills, characters, effects. Why does this have to be redone for the sake of people who cant acutally play another game instead of trying to change a PVE game into PVP? They should just add a one on one and this whole debating would finally stop and they could go on with the real game.....

[Bakim0n0]

My two cents...

PVP can ruin game balance, as obviously demonstrated in other games. This is the primary cause for calling for PvP to be a totally separate thing from the PvE.

My personal opinion for pvp the best options would be to either designate an area for optional dueling, maybe 2v2 matches or whatever and give no reward whatsoever (so the pvp is its own reward)

or

Throw traditional load-outs out the window and allow for pre-made load-outs that is selected when joining pvp that has specific builds that are carefully balanced.

To put some perspective here... I really dislike all the cries about pvp being bad or "go play a pvp game" etc etc because it totally spits in the face of the considerable player base that *wants* pvp; lets face it, pvp would not be absurdly hard to implement and as long as the rest of the game doesn't get changed to balance PvP who really cares? Why is it a bad thing to add a feature that will attract a lot of new players?

[InFlames]

This thread itself is pvp already.

http://i.imgur.com/szEAR.jpg

[-.SP.-G43riel]

@Bakim0n0 Exactly i don't get why all the fuss

we get you don't like PVP you won't be forced to play it, but you don't need to deny it for no reason, most people aren't even asking for balances of skills or anything like that, just for a place to fight against other people with their frames, If you don't want you don't need to go there. Anyway a good way to start an TestingArena(as the game is still on BETA and some are really worried about balance even thought they don't like pvp) would be blocking all Warframes last/4th skill on the PVP planet/area.

Edited April 10, 2013 by g43riel

[Venarge]

@Bakim0n0 Exactly i don't get why all the fuss

we get you don't like PVP you won't be forced to play it, but you don't need to deny it for no reason, most people aren't even asking for balances of skills or anything like that, just for a place to fight against other people with their frames, If you don't want you don't need to go there.

Its not about those who ask for a simply place to fight. I would like this myself.

Its about the effort something like this would take to create. ,Its about all those useless threads out there that waste space for actually good suggestions... there is nothing that speaks against a simple dojo 1 on 1. But this hilarious amount of PVP threads/ PVP changes is simply annoying....

Edited April 10, 2013 by Venarge

[Bakim0n0]

Its not about those who ask for a simply place to fight. I would like this myself.

Its about the effort something like this would take to create. ,Its about all those useless threads out there that waste space for actually good suggestions... there is nothing that speaks against a simple dojo 1 on 1. But this hilarious amount of PVP threads/ PVP changes is simply annoying....

Amount of effort? I'm pretty sure the whole point of this entire thing is to attract players. It's not really that hard to have an area with player vs player damage enabled.

[RyuKaiser]

I don't see why they couldn't do competitive PvP, turning all the suits either either set/themed versions of themselves (remove all customization by setting all abilities and weapons), which would make it 20 times easier to balance... that or they could just throw a PvP mode in and forget it exists.

The problem I have with PvP in a PvE game is the fact PvP usually has an effect on PvE, and I LIKE where things are right now, minus some minor needed improvements. If they could seperate the two into their own "modes", complete with their own rules and such, I'd totally be for it. But right now, I feel like adding in PvE would turn the game into Global Agenda: To split up to know what it is, making it fail in both dimenions

Edited April 10, 2013 by RyuKaiser

[Venarge]

Amount of effort? I'm pretty sure the whole point of this entire thing is to attract players. It's not really that hard to have an area with player vs player damage enabled.

the effort comes in the staging. Creating a place that fits the fight. Creating a timer to make it balanced and not everyone attacking each other before they are ready. The whole coding would be an amount for sure. It would be cool and all, like I said I would like to have somethign like that as well (In the most simple way)

[Bakim0n0]

the effort comes in the staging. Creating a place that fits the fight. Creating a timer to make it balanced and not everyone attacking each other before they are ready. The whole coding would be an amount for sure. It would be cool and all, like I said I would like to have somethign like that as well (In the most simple way)

those are all very very easy things to implement other than actual skill to skill / weap to weap balance; adding a timer and making players spawn on seperate ends of a map is not that hard to do with minor tweaks; they could even use maps already in the game (like Kiliken for example<spelling?>)

[Venarge]

those are all very very easy things to implement other than actual skill to skill / weap to weap balance; adding a timer and making players spawn on seperate ends of a map is not that hard to do with minor tweaks; they could even use maps already in the game (like Kiliken for example<spelling?>)

would be possible. But I think it would be best to have an alternative training room^^

[nohwone]

i am seeing that most of the replies are sort of being biased to pvp like 5% more or less, but i know that the pvp in a pve world can affect the game alot, and the work done for the programming or coding must be hell, i mean html is enough for me but stuff like that, no thanks. and yes balance is a very important part, if they are going to implement the pvp later when the game is ready, they should make it an alternative to the training room like venarge said, or they could just make the pvp into something like those old contests like climbing up stuff, or a 1on1 dueling match, archery and many more other stuff, that can clearly avoid the old traditional kill each other pvp, and maybe turn this games pvp into a cooperative pvp, or something like that.

thank you all for posting such great ideas, and i hope the devs see this and maybe even implement this when they add pvp

[Slaskia]

I’m one of those that is ‘against’ PvP, but I am far from being a ‘soreloser’ about it as the OP so ‘nicely’ labeled me without knowing me (a better term for me, though I don’t like it either is ‘carebear’). I ‘have’ played PvP games before: the original Planetside and TF2 to be exact, but that was years ago, when the PvP community as a whole was overall more ‘respectful’ in my experience.

That said, my reason for hating PvP ‘now’ is mainly the mentality that comes with it these days: the gankers, the griefers, the screaming sorelosers, the trash talkers, etc. The other reason is that, also in my experience, PvE ends up suffering due to PvP balancing: PvP in a PvE game just never ends well. I’ll use a couple of MMOs I used to play as an example: Star Wars Galaxies(SWG) and City of Heroes.

In SWG, you had a flagging PvP system so Rebels and Imperials could fight each other if they wanted (sometime after I stopped playing, they made a whole planet open PvP). Just for background, you leveled up in this game via a ‘skill tree’ system that you could change whenever you wanted. This lead to ‘flavor of the month’ builds and just about every month those builds would get nerfed in an effort to balance the PvP side of things, which of course affected PvE as well. Eventually, they devs just scrapped the whole skill tree system completely (the ‘new game experience’ they called it, though us players retermed it as ‘nerfed game experience’) and that basically marked the beginning of the end for the game. That game was shut down shortly before Star Wars: the Old Republic was released, though THAT MMO is currently suffering from the same PvP/PvE balancing problems.

City of Heroes had their PvP tacked on after the fact, with it only in specific zones. Originally, all the powers worked the same as in the PvE zones (if I remember right: it’s been awhile) and thus PvP balancing affected PvE like in SWG and SW:tOR. Eventually, the devs did the smart thing and ‘split’ the powers, meaning how powers worked in PvP zones was different than in PvE zones. This solved the PvP balancing affecting PvE for the most part, but it turned out players didn’t like having to ‘relearn’ how their powers worked in a PvP zone. The result: the PvP zones were pretty much empty of players, save for a few that went in there for badges and special items (shivas/nukes) and the occasional supergroup organizing a PvP match. This game was shut down late last year (though not due to PvP: the reasoning behind it is a controversy all on its own that would be very off topic here).

(TL:DL section for those that don’t want to read the above)

That all said, I am ‘tolerant’ of PvP existing in a primarily PvE game, so long as it follows these perimeters:

1: It must be by consent only (‘opt in’ flagging system or specific areas/zones) – this is the big one for me

2: ‘Balancing’ for PvP side must only affect the PvP side (skill splitting/different rulesets)

3: Anything ‘assessable’ to PvP (weapons/items), should be assessable to the PvE side in some way (hard mission/pay/etc): no exclusive PvP rewards

There are other things, but since I wouldn’t PvP anyway it’s not important to me if the above things are followed (especially the first two items: I’m more lenient on the 3, depending on what the items are). With that in mind, I won’t mind an ‘arena’ or even the ‘player stalker’ idea to satisfy people’s desire to slaughter each other. Just allow me to stay out of it and not be affected by it in any way.

[UberBonisseur]

Okay, I might have a solution.

Do you guys know the Enfos' team survival map from Warcraft 3 ?

It works as competitive PvE. Two teams competing with eachother in separate maps. Basically, waves of enemies come one after another, while you are fighting your own wave; however you can try to disrupt the enemy team by using a big range of debuffs, creep manipulation and other subtle trickeries.

It could work by adding some kind of "resource" which you earn and spend (on a terminal for example) to disrupt the enemy, by closing doors or sending bigger mobs, disabling power.... random ideas.

Straight up PvP might be veeeery hard to set up for this game, it's not built for PvP.

But this could be a very good compromise, competitive PvE

Edited April 10, 2013 by UberBonisseur

[nohwone]

I’m one of those that is ‘against’ PvP, but I am far from being a ‘soreloser’ about it as the OP so ‘nicely’ labeled me without knowing me (a better term for me, though I don’t like it either is ‘carebear’). I ‘have’ played PvP games before: the original Planetside and TF2 to be exact, but that was years ago, when the PvP community as a whole was overall more ‘respectful’ in my experience.

That said, my reason for hating PvP ‘now’ is mainly the mentality that comes with it these days: the gankers, the griefers, the screaming sorelosers, the trash talkers, etc. The other reason is that, also in my experience, PvE ends up suffering due to PvP balancing: PvP in a PvE game just never ends well. I’ll use a couple of MMOs I used to play as an example: Star Wars Galaxies(SWG) and City of Heroes.

In SWG, you had a flagging PvP system so Rebels and Imperials could fight each other if they wanted (sometime after I stopped playing, they made a whole planet open PvP). Just for background, you leveled up in this game via a ‘skill tree’ system that you could change whenever you wanted. This lead to ‘flavor of the month’ builds and just about every month those builds would get nerfed in an effort to balance the PvP side of things, which of course affected PvE as well. Eventually, they devs just scrapped the whole skill tree system completely (the ‘new game experience’ they called it, though us players retermed it as ‘nerfed game experience’) and that basically marked the beginning of the end for the game. That game was shut down shortly before Star Wars: the Old Republic was released, though THAT MMO is currently suffering from the same PvP/PvE balancing problems.

City of Heroes had their PvP tacked on after the fact, with it only in specific zones. Originally, all the powers worked the same as in the PvE zones (if I remember right: it’s been awhile) and thus PvP balancing affected PvE like in SWG and SW:tOR. Eventually, the devs did the smart thing and ‘split’ the powers, meaning how powers worked in PvP zones was different than in PvE zones. This solved the PvP balancing affecting PvE for the most part, but it turned out players didn’t like having to ‘relearn’ how their powers worked in a PvP zone. The result: the PvP zones were pretty much empty of players, save for a few that went in there for badges and special items (shivas/nukes) and the occasional supergroup organizing a PvP match. This game was shut down late last year (though not due to PvP: the reasoning behind it is a controversy all on its own that would be very off topic here).

(TL:DL section for those that don’t want to read the above)

That all said, I am ‘tolerant’ of PvP existing in a primarily PvE game, so long as it follows these perimeters:

1: It must be by consent only (‘opt in’ flagging system or specific areas/zones) – this is the big one for me

2: ‘Balancing’ for PvP side must only affect the PvP side (skill splitting/different rulesets)

3: Anything ‘assessable’ to PvP (weapons/items), should be assessable to the PvE side in some way (hard mission/pay/etc): no exclusive PvP rewards

There are other things, but since I wouldn’t PvP anyway it’s not important to me if the above things are followed (especially the first two items: I’m more lenient on the 3, depending on what the items are). With that in mind, I won’t mind an ‘arena’ or even the ‘player stalker’ idea to satisfy people’s desire to slaughter each other. Just allow me to stay out of it and not be affected by it in any way.

you just blew my mind, you completely followed what i asked for and for that i am really great full plus i just did some background checks and wow man just complete wow. after reading the stuff you said i kinda feel bad now for posting this. But i am also happy that you did not take the "soreloser" thing seriously

and after the livestream of the DEs, they said that there might be some sort of pvp as to a dojo thing, not sure though. and i also agree with your idea about no exclusive rewards and the pvp balance to only affect the pvp zone.

[Allajh]

Exactly. They have to complete each other. The same way a man does with a woman.

I lol'd. Trolling, bitter, or divorced? Inquiring minds want to know.

I’m one of those that is ‘against’ PvP, but I am far from being a ‘soreloser’ about it as the OP so ‘nicely’ labeled me without knowing me (a better term for me, though I don’t like it either is ‘carebear’). I ‘have’ played PvP games before: the original Planetside and TF2 to be exact, but that was years ago, when the PvP community as a whole was overall more ‘respectful’ in my experience.

Word. I own plenty of PvP only games and might be labeled a carebear as well, although perhaps an angry carebear, or PKK, in the games with open world PvP. The thrill of facing another player that you can't predict how they'll react is very rewarding in its own right but the honor and respect that might have ever existed online has disappeared completely.

You go to a martial arts dojo or MMA ring and people are good sports about it, even if they kicked your &amp;#&#33;, and will generally give tips on how to improve or will just give you props for giving them hell. Not so much online, and while I enjoy a good verbal joust or even heated argument when tempers flare it's tiresome to read "lawl nub" over and over again, whether you win or lose.

I played Mount and Blade Warband for a bit and it never failed accusations of cheating, exploiting, cheap tactics, being a coward because you were an archer etc. It got old only that in the chat log every single time and really that's what PvP is these days, a bunch of whiney bastards that lose without any semblance of respect and have EVEN LESS if they win.

That all said, I am ‘tolerant’ of PvP existing in a primarily PvE game, so long as it follows these perimeters:

1: It must be by consent only (‘opt in’ flagging system or specific areas/zones) – this is the big one for me

Yes, consent! Key word, you can't get anywhere without consent these days. I'd have no problem for a meta-game PvP approach that is completely optional to partake in, BUT again, regardless, you invite the hateful trolls and garbage that goes along with it.

So more or less segregation. No open PvP, their own subforum so that it doesn't spill onto the other pages, and in no way should it be allowed to effect PvE no matter how much they $#*(@ and moan.