The Mastery Aspect Of The Focus System

[Fo0otsteps]

We still don't know alot about the focus system and how it will work, but i want to talk about something that worries me.

Yes i know that Steve said that Focus is getting a massive re-look at, but i want to address one thing if it is still a part of Focus, and that is mastery.

 

Several Devstreams ago Steve said that the slots in the Focus skill tree are unlocked by mastery ranks. That means that if you are mastery 9 you have 9 slots for focus upgrades. And i think that is a very VERY bad idea. 

 

Imagine if someone goes on to Steam and sees "Just updated: Warframe - Update 15! Focus system!" and downloads WF because he got intrigued by it. He then goes into the focus tab for his excalibro and sees a tree with 30 slots. Imagine his reaction when he sees that to experience the Focus system to the fullest, he has to go through months of researching, farming, and waiting everyday to reach mastery 30. if that was me i would not even bother with it, and i would get the idea that this game rewards only players who play it A LOT. 

 

Tying the focus slots to mastery will limit it to the "mastery 16 club" for months after it's released, thus not only will you limit your possibilities for feedback, but you will turn down new players.

 

Instead on Focus slots, why not tie mastery to the Focus upgrades? What i mean is that you can unlock the whole tree with affinity, but the upgrades scale with mastery? For instance you will have a "bleedout reduction" focus witch will grant you a 3 second increase at mastery 0, but will have a +1 increase every mastery rank.(of course these numbers are random, and here only to give an example) You still get more powerful with focus as you get a higher mastery, but you are not locked out of it at low ranks.

 

what do you think?

[Mirriky]

-rewritten-

 

Although I agree with you, there needs to be a balance. High mastery players have worked their way up there with less incentives that what the new players would. And I doubt players will join purely for the focusing, and if they do they will either enjoy the rest of warframe or leave because it isn't their thing.

 

I also would like to be rewarded better for the amount of work I put in just to get to rank 14. And more than just trades per day and useless drones. (all weapons are unlocked well before 12 comes around)

Edited July 28, 2014 by cam-o-flage20

[Greyismyname]

That sounds awsome that way lvling actually increases stats instead of just unlocking new gear, though new gear is always good

[Kinamu]

That sounds awsome that way lvling actually increases stats instead of just unlocking new gear, though new gear is always good

Focus slot would improve stats too, but in a different way, it would give you the ability to increase more stats, and I would prefer that more. It would be easier to balance that, as there would be fixed maximum power str or power range. If we would go with Fo0otsteps way, then high mastery lvl players would have so big power range that you cold clear 2 rooms with an ability.

[Schalimah]

and when a MMORPG introduces a new endgame raid that is a bad idea aswell i guess.

 

focus is an endgame feature for players that have already have all weapons on max rank and possibly fully forma'd.

 

it is the same thing with kubrows. you need atleast 250.000 credits to get and sustain a kubrow.

show me one new player who can afford to put that much money in a companion alone.

[Shehriazad]

and when a MMORPG introduces a new endgame raid that is a bad idea aswell i guess.

 

focus is an endgame feature for players that have already have all weapons on max rank and possibly fully forma'd.

 

it is the same thing with kubrows. you need atleast 250.000 credits to get and sustain a kubrow.

show me one new player who can afford to put that much money in a companion alone.

Focus is essentially a passive/active skilltree and not an endgame raid...your comparison is very lackluster. I don't know any GOOD game that forces you to go through months of intensive geargrind just to get into the upper section of the skilltree.

Most good mmos let you just grind up and achieve 90-95% of the skilltree within the first month. And it's only a few of the good games that reserve the top of the skilltree for dedicated grinders. (Path of Exile being one of the few GOOD games that handles it like this)

But think about how hardcore this would be for new players in WF. Not only do they need to level up hundreds of gear pieces to catch up to others...they also need to gather XP from maxed items....you can't effectively do both. 

Realistically if you don't BUY the weapons for money you would probably look at at least HALF A YEAR for some passive skilltree perks.

If you say that this kind of a long grind is good for any new player or people who decided "Hey, I dont actually want to level bad weapons that I dont like"...then you should try oldschool Korean mmos...you would love those.... but there is a reason why most of those died.

I could understand if DE says that they unlock a new section of the mastery with every other mastery rank....but this should not require you to actually get an insane mastery rank. Otherwise it is just going to alienate anyone that isn't into leveling gear they hate, new players and people that just don't feel like forcing themselves to rank 16-17-18

Edited July 28, 2014 by Shehriazad

[Schalimah]

Most good mmos let you just grind up and achieve 90-95% of the skilltree within the first month. And it's only a few of the good games that reserve the top of the skilltree for dedicated grinders. (Path of Exile being one of the few GOOD games that handles it like this)

 

the correct equivalent to the focus system in an mmo-rpg would not be the skilltree. It would be highend gear. and that is not handed out that easily.

 

In classic WoW you had to practice those raidbosses for quite some time let alone ressource farming for buff food elixiers and flasks. it took you more time to actually prepare for a raid then the raid itself.

[Shehriazad]

the correct equivalent to the focus system in an mmo-rpg would not be the skilltree. It would be highend gear. and that is not handed out that easily.

 

In classic WoW you had to practice those raidbosses for quite some time let alone ressource farming for buff food elixiers and flasks. it took you more time to actually prepare for a raid then the raid itself.

No....it would not be an equivalent. Focus system lets you assign XP to a skilltree of your own choice....You don't farm any resources or bosses for that. You are just trying to force your opinion here.

And funny that you mention WoW now...how would you even dare mention "classic" WoW...Classic WoW only worked because grinding for things for ages was normal back then...nowadays you just get everything stuffed in your face within a few weeks of starting WoW. 

And my point still stands...this Focus system would only scare off players if it actually REQUIRE you to get past mastery 10 to be as good as other players. Keep in mind that those bonuses will likely work in pvp as well. 

This would be yet another thing that makes veterans stronger by default than new players...but in a bad way. 

There is no way you can convince anyone that it is a good idea to be forced to grind through a bunch of BORING or underpowered weapons (most likely without potatoes as well) just to get some passive statpoints.

That would literally be like 5% of the playerbase that "enjoy" doing that.

If you seriously think that adding more grind to a game that already only consists of farming and grind...then sure...you are entitled to enjoy self mutilation...but some people actually prefer fun gameplay elements that keep you busy without feeling like a filler.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Shehriazad

[LoRDxDeMoN]

"mastery 17 club"

 

Sorry, had to fix that up for you.

[Esleyer]

TBH, I don't see what's the problem with that. MR16 people put time and effort into their MR - why can't be they be rewarded?

 

In other MMOs you start too with weakest skills and got a long way to get those coolest most powerful skills.

[Fo0otsteps]

TBH, I don't see what's the problem with that. MR16 people put time and effort into their MR - why can't be they be rewarded?

 

In other MMOs you start too with weakest skills and got a long way to get those coolest most powerful skills.

Did you read my post?

my request is for focus points to be available to every one but scale with mastery. in warframe you don't start with the weakest focus, you start with no focus at all

[S3EK3R]

The problem is, Warframe is not an MMO.

[NoSpax]

Focus System is per Loadout. Should be capped at 10 Slots, does round up to 40 I guess.

 

We don't even know yet what this system causes (but it will introduce some fine stuff)

Actually DE teases us with it already. ;P

 

Take a closer look at this picture..

You will see some very tempting things, I have marked them anyway.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2904/14579447630_f9a5260025_o.png

Edited July 28, 2014 by NoSpax

[Fo0otsteps]

Focus System is per Loadout. Should be capped at 10 Slots, does round up to 40 I guess.

 

We don't even know yet what this system causes (but it will introduce some fine stuff)

Actually DE teases us with it already. ;P

 

Take a closer look at this picture..

You will see some very tempting things, I have marked them anyway.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2904/14579447630_f9a5260025_o.png

i guess these are the cross frame skills DE said they were working on(Hope invis is not one of them tho)

you also forgot deja-vu and repel

Edited July 28, 2014 by Fo0otsteps

[NoSpax]

Couldn't read those, cause tiny text.

[zerogear5]

it would not take months to get a high mastery rank maybe past 10 mastery but if you just focus on the frames alone you would speed though mastery.

[Niryco]

Several Devstreams ago Steve said that the slots in the Focus skill tree are unlocked by mastery ranks. That means that if you are mastery 9 you have 9 slots for focus upgrades. And i think that is a very VERY bad idea. 

 

Imagine if someone goes on to Steam and sees "Just updated: Warframe - Update 15! Focus system!" and downloads WF because he got intrigued by it. He then goes into the focus tab for his excalibro and sees a tree with 30 slots. Imagine his reaction when he sees that to experience the Focus system to the fullest, he has to go through months of researching, farming, and waiting everyday to reach mastery 30. if that was me i would not even bother with it, and i would get the idea that this game rewards only players who play it A LOT.

 

I don't want to sound very arrogant but your example doesn't seem to hold water. Think about it this way if new players come to the game they would be rank 1 within a day, so they already would have 1 focus slot by then.

 

By maxing out all their equipment at the start, they would be rank 2 (if i am not wrong) and thus have 2 focus slots. That is when they can start accessing their focus to even begin with.

 

So right at the get go you would already be able to access two slots once your master your first frame. Given how fast i had ranked up, i probably start looking into this whole focus thingamagig followed by what it does while playing around with it.

 

To be honest how people would not want it or just feel it being redundant is that well it would just be an extension of the modding system which people would complain is quite boring. New players would just go along with the flow.

[Esleyer]

Did you read my post?

my request is for focus points to be available to every one but scale with mastery. in warframe you don't start with the weakest focus, you start with no focus at all

 

I did read your post. It's not a "bad" idea - I just think the original (atleast the concept we know) isn't perfect but it's still better.

 

1. New player wouldn't join just because of the new "Focus" system. They don't even know what it is. They don't know anything about the game.

 

2. When I started playing Warframe it was a bit overwhelming. It's just so different from all other MMO's. If not for my friends who played with me I would've probably dropped the game. To make "Focus" system available from the start is to confuse the new players even further. 

 

3. At the beginning you're supposed to start with nothing. It's far more enjoyable to get all the stuff. The game was really hard when I started to play with no mods and stuff, but it was so much fun to get them. You could get nothing with plat, only obtain it yourself. And it felt so much good when you finally did.

 

4. First mastery ranks can be achieved quickly - it's not like they're locked out from "Focus" system untill they reach MR16.

 

5. Motivation to rank up. A few seconds to bleedout won't be much of a motivation to aim for MR16. However, a skill obtainable only at MR16 is a different story. Right now I'm MR10, and TBH, I don't even care about MR. I've got all the equipment I needed or wanted - absolutely not interested in ranking up right now. There's nothing in for me. And I don't care if it makes me look more "prestigious".

Edited July 28, 2014 by Esleyer

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

I don't want to sound very arrogant but your example doesn't seem to hold water. Think about it this way if new players come to the game they would be rank 1 within a day, so they already would have 1 focus slot by then.

 

By maxing out all their equipment at the start, they would be rank 2 (if i am not wrong) and thus have 2 focus slots. That is when they can start accessing their focus to even begin with.

 

So right at the get go you would already be able to access two slots once your master your first frame. Given how fast i had ranked up, i probably start looking into this whole focus thingamagig followed by what it does while playing around with it.

 

To be honest how people would not want it or just feel it being redundant is that well it would just be an extension of the modding system which people would complain is quite boring. New players would just go along with the flow.

 I agree with him as a mastery rank 16 player I would want to get rewarded for the time I put here and I don't want it to be another just another boring upgrade similar to the mod system that scales with rank mastery. Mastery rank should hold significance as it was intended for like what he said players have to work to unlock certain things or else players would not even bother trying out the various variety of content such as any of the 150+ weapons in game or any of the 20+ warframes mastery rank makes the player experience all aspects of this game therefore they should be rewarded with for their corresponding efforts which is why the FOCUS system was developed to cater to end game players to keep them playing the game as it is the only real incentive for warframe veterans.

Edited July 28, 2014 by HARDCORE_DAVE

[Shehriazad]

It would be okay to have some mastery requirement...just don't go all the way up to mastery 16-17 or something. Especially with the fact that veteran players can reach thos ranks earlier than someone who wasn't around back then it seems even more silly to go for a maximum mastery rank focus system.


They should cap somewhere between 10-15 if they REALLY have to do it this way.


Also you "should" be rewarded more just for leveling that boring gear by having better stats/abilities than others? If that stuff works in pvp and competetive areas then I will have to respectfully disagree.... pvp advantages through grind are never a good idea. That dates back to the old Korean mmos...not the best days of f2p.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Shehriazad

[Niryco]

It would be okay to have some mastery requirement...just don't go all the way up to mastery 16-17 or something. Especially with the fact that veteran players can reach thos ranks earlier than someone who wasn't around back then it seems even more silly to go for a maximum mastery rank focus system.

They should cap somewhere between 10-15 if they REALLY have to do it this way.

If not mastery rank requirements are established than the system would be a much larger disappointment to whom it was originally developed for in the first place which are end-game(long standing) players and as such mastery rank requirement is a must and current MR 16 players should be able to access the full thing asap if not they will be without content and DE would lose alot of long standing players.

 

I would also like to address op of the thread again, Focus system is not built for new players in mind, it is built for end-game players who want something to do. Although it is commendable that you are trying to include all groups into this whole system, it would just promote greater disharmony as older players would be very unhappy that it is hardly added content. At the same time newer players would hardly feel any more different as they would still have to grind their 30 ranks for anything to be useful, like getting badass ranks in borderlands 2 which in my opinion was really bad and boring to attend to.

 

Your intentions are good, but the outcome of your actions will cause alot more harm than good.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Jacate

[Shehriazad]

There are quite a few players that just don't like reaching max mastery rank because that would mean having to level a lot of terrible weapons that are just not fun for them.

Dangling some stats infront of them and telling them "just eat S#&$ for a while so you can get a marshmallow once in a while" doesn't seem like a good idea.

And the point still stands...you can't effectively level mastery and gain lens XP at the same time. Either you will slow down mastery gain or you will not gain any lens XP....this system seems quite problematic.

There are enough ways to make this an artificial game lengthener without forcing people to do a tedious task that actually only a fraction of the playerbase enjoys.

[Shion963]

AFAIK and IMHO fromtge little info I've heard in the past, Mastery Ranks doesn't determine how far you progress in the assumed skilltrees, just the slots.

From what I worked out (last I heard anything of it) it's:

You get+install Focus lenses to gain points corresponding to the Lens' clan (V, D, =, -, so on) and you get points for those kinds by gaining spillover xp. THOSE POINTS go to the assumed skilltrees, like 60V points could be used to progress in V tree, D for D, so forth. MR gives more slots to EQUIP focus powers, rather than progression.

IMHO it makes more sense for a system intended to reward players using favorite gear to be rewarded by using favorite gear, rather than using new gear to grind mastery ranks.

[Niryco]

There are quite a few players that just don't like reaching max mastery rank because that would mean having to level a lot of terrible weapons that are just not fun for them.

Dangling some stats infront of them and telling them "just eat S#&$ for a while so you can get a marshmallow once in a while" doesn't seem like a good idea.

And the point still stands...you can't effectively level mastery and gain lens XP at the same time. Either you will slow down mastery gain or you will not gain any lens XP....this system seems quite problematic.

There are enough ways to make this an artificial game lengthener without forcing people to do a tedious task that actually only a fraction of the playerbase enjoys.

The system wasn't meant to dangle any carrot to lead you on to rank up. The point of the system is to provide players who are at end-game with end-game content.

 

Also your second point is what makes it special because that is where end-game users can atleast focus on lens xp then mastery rank xp since they can't do anything with mastery rank xp. As i said again it is not to provide for new players or average time players, it is a system for players who have played till the end where there is nothing to do.

 

And finally, you don't represent all of the MR 16 -17 players. Neither do you represent the silent majority, because in the end many players will go along with it as it is something they can do. Those that will complain are players who feel excluded from the system, when it was clearly stated anyways that it was meant for end-game play, not those who are new to the game.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

In every RPG there's something that seperates the rookies from the Vets. Our's is the Focus system.

 

Signed by,

The Guy tired of see Mastery 4's in Sechura/ T4