Suggestions for more Frame differences.

[PapaKarlo]

Hey there,

I was playing for a few days and my "oh wow! what a crazy design!"-period finally ended. Basically - when I've got my friend to join me and I was forced to describe, explain and sometimes even defend some game aspects. Still awesome design, anyway. We are looking for new skins and more customization besides coloring, but please, don't give players to much freedom at it, you are professional designers here.

Anyway, we've come up with a lot of notes like "less gameplay-affecting donate", "no pro-system", "more craft" etc. But the biggest flaw that we encounter is the huge similarity between classes/frames. I'm sure, that I'm not the first, who talks about it, but I haven't seen big pinned topic with discussions and suggestions about it, and I think it should be!

So here we are. I don't want to start with big ideas how to change playstyle of every warframe, Instead I'll try to suggest some things, that could be implemented in gameplay that we have right now.

Atm, all the differences are in warframes abilities. It's not bad at all, I like, that I could pick "mage"-like warframe and still be good at shooting and sword fighting. Different abilities is perfect for making every gamer playstyle unique, but we simply don't have enough energy. So:

1. Add energy gaining from damaging enemies. The idea is that player should use his abilities once per ~10 seconds. Not hoarding all the energy spheres for one use of his biggest nuke at the end of misson and not keeping last 50 energy to "Sprint" away from the tough situation if it ever will be. Player should fight as hard as he can to gain the ability to use his Warframe skills to fight even better. And no energy gain from skill-based damage, obviously. And no "melle weapons gain more energy", we'll get complete asylum here.

2. Remaster most of skills. Many of current skills depend too much on situation. Volt's "Electric Shield" for example. It's an awesome skill, but I've never used it properly so far. Firefights are very dinamic there's almost no need to make new cover, there are a lot of melee-based mobs and it's cost is too damn high. On infestation missions it's honestly useless. There are many nice but mostly useless skills like it and they all could be improved by few bonuses. Like additional slight shield regeneration for all players near Volt's "Energy Shield" will make it usefull even in close combat and in firefights there will be a reason to drop it for yourself to restore some of the character's shield and not to just run away to cover. Excalibur's "Super Jump" is pretty funny, but again useless. Add some AoE stun effect on landing and - boom, great crowd control.

The idea is to make all skills good and rational in most of scenarios, so player will have choice and variety in battle.

Right now all skills are luxuary, like super weapon that's used only on special occasions. And right now player's character forms on mods he using. Someone boosting his shields, other stacking melee-damage and generally it's a good thing, but it's completely independent from player's WarFrame. So:

3. Unique mods for every class. Mods are already separated on basic "WarFrame" mods and class-related mods. But I haven't seen much deffirence between them. So, let's class-mods be much improved versions of common mods. Like, Rhino could use the best Health and Armour boost mods when other Frames are not restricted from using them, but the common-versions will be slightly worse. In my vision each Frame should have 3-4 class-related bonus-types so there will be the room for specfic "Builds". Like melee-based and range-based Excalibur, for a simple example.

This obviously means that we need more mods. I think, it will be great to have "gives n% Fire damage for all weapons"-type of mod. This kind of mods will be available for everyone (small bonus, of course) and Fire-mods will be Ember-specific, Shock-mods - Volt's, etc.

Speaking back to "3-4 specific mods for each class". They shouldn't to be unique. Every bonus-type should be shared between 2 or 3 WarFrames. Like Rhino shares Health bonus with Tano and Armour bonus with Ash, but the whole "sets" of bonuses are unique for each of them.

It will grant player to specialize in prefered dirrection, deffirenet for each class, but don'r restrict him to use whatever he wants.

That's basic ideas, that shouldn't broke gameplay as it is right now, because it's just twiggling with already existing game features. More active and usefull skills and class specific mod-customization. Here. Whole post in one sentence.

I'm sincerely sorry if all of this was already discussed, or the whole point is to iron most of differences out. And I'm apologizing extremly for my language, it's hard to speak english properly, when everybody around you speaks only russian. And thanks for reading.

Updated:

Given some thought and more game expierience, I come up with thought, that energy regen will be ok if developers will somehow limit the usage of ultimate skills of every character. For example, Excalibur's "Radial Javelin" is ok, since its limited range, it's using is pretty situational and not forcing players to prefer it over every other skill. Meanwhile Volt's "Overload" basically teaches players to hold 100 energy for their ultimate. Since it's PvE game, I think it's ok, that we got so powerfull and spectacular skills, but still its usage should be limited, because ot makes Volts completely ignore their other skills, as "energy wastefull".

4. Divide "uber" skill from others. To ensure players won't be backed in using their main skills to keep energy for uber-skill. I think, the most handfull solution is "charge" system (I'm sure, you'll made up some wierd word for that). Fighting/healing/tanking will filling special bar until player will be able to use his most powerfull ability. Each class could have different bar-lenght so we can keep devastating area damage skills and still got them balanced with less harmfull abilities like Loki's "Radial Disarm". Since their "rage/charge"-bar will be shorter, their skills will be using more often.

Edited January 15, 2013 by PapaKarlo

[Kurtino]

I agree that energy certainly shouldn't be something that doesn't regenerate and needs to be hoarded up, abilities don't feel like abilities in this game but sort of *use it if you're stuck* emergency cards. Sort of like when you save up rocket launcher ammo for a boss fight instead of wasting it on normal enemies....but replacing the rocket launcher with abilities which should be much more common use.

[Skarulf]

I agree that the different frames need more variance, and I also agree that mods are the best way to do it - don't alter the skill trees too much, just give different frames more specialized mods - as you said, health/armor for Rhino, lots of fire/shock for Ember/Volt, perhaps attack rate/armor penetration for Excalibur, etc. etc.

Maybe, and this is a giant maybe, include Warframe-specific weapons at some point in the future? Or maybe benefits for certain frames to use certain weapons? As it stands, daggers are fairly useless, but if Ash had a chance for a guaranteed critical hit by getting a backstab with a dagger, perhaps more Ashes would invest in a dagger?

[PapaKarlo]

I agree that energy certainly shouldn't be something that doesn't regenerate and needs to be hoarded up, abilities don't feel like abilities in this game but sort of *use it if you're stuck* emergency cards. Sort of like when you save up rocket launcher ammo for a boss fight instead of wasting it on normal enemies....but replacing the rocket launcher with abilities which should be much more common use.

Yes, but simple regeneration will lead to spamming and will require adding cooldown for abilities. I believe, it's the first reason why we don't have regeneration at the first place. So erning energy through battle is most simple way to balance hoarding and spamming. Maybe we should even get energy DEgeneration after a while for minimum of 25, so people won't be running with their Overloads ready to blow every friggin' room.

[Kurtino]

Yes, but simple regeneration will lead to spamming and will require adding cooldown for abilities. I believe, it's the first reason why we don't have regeneration at the first place. So erning energy through battle is most simple way to balance hoarding and spamming. Maybe we should even get energy DEgeneration after a while for minimum of 25, so people won't be running with their Overloads ready to blow every friggin' room.

You could make it like a typical mana bar, using energy does make it go down but it regenerates slowly with pickups as a option to speed things up. You don't have to add cooldowns to something like that if you don't want too but it makes you feel like you aren't saving it up too much either.

I'd also hate to feel like I have to keep killing enemies otherwise my energy will run out, that would make me feel like I HAVE to use this ability right now or i'll miss the chance too.

I personally think that regeneration just makes the player feel more comfortable without needing to give him the ability to spam, as long as the regeneration is slow enough to be noticable but there.

[MegatechBody]

Frames need hats. Give each frame a unique hat please. This revolutionary charge will solve frame uniqueness issues among your consumer base.

Edited January 11, 2013 by MegatechBody

[Sheetaki]

Ugh your number one is one of Trinity's skills. Its one of the things that make the Trinity frame unique and desired for team play.

[PapaKarlo]

Ugh your number one is one of Trinity's skills. Its one of the things that make the Trinity frame unique and desired for team play.

Yep, and I still dont see any of them. Bursting my &#! out to craft one myself. Also, ALL Trinity's skills is my number 2. =) I saw the descriptions and players opinions about them, both telling, that it's not a support class, it's "wow, finally my abilities aren't uselesss in this mission!"-lottery.

I'd also hate to feel like I have to keep killing enemies otherwise my energy will run out, that would make me feel like I HAVE to use this ability right now or i'll miss the chance too.

Well, right now I see a lot of Volt's, running around, hoarding their energy to Overload every room they can. If the team has Energy Syphon artefact it's happening freaklishly often. So if player will have energy for doing nothing it will lead to waiting for energy pull to full up, then spam all abilities at once. Basically, it will e the same thing, that we have right now, even worst, cuz players won't look for energy orbs. That's why this system requires skills cooldown, but that's RPG-way, kinda kills action-dynamics.

That's why encouraging players to fight actively with energy gainig will be more suitable for action. Idea with loosing energy during time is very doubtable suggestion of my, I don't like it very much, but I dont know, how to ensure that most powerfull skills won't be in use too often. Maybe cooldown only for one, "ultimate" skill for each class? So we could freely use others and our "super-weapon" still will be for special occasions.

Maybe, and this is a giant maybe, include Warframe-specific weapons at some point in the future? Or maybe benefits for certain frames to use certain weapons? As it stands, daggers are fairly useless, but if Ash had a chance for a guaranteed critical hit by getting a backstab with a dagger, perhaps more Ashes would invest in a dagger?

Nice idea, btw. "+5% damage with auto-pistols/daggers/shotguns etc." sound pretty simple and helps make classes unique. Like different kind of weapons available to different classes in MassEffect. Just without strict restrictions.

Frames need hats. Give each frame a unique hat please. This revolutionary charge will solve frame uniqueness issues among your consumer base.

And pets!

[Keagian]

As of right now, the only real reason to get a frame is for visuals only. Some of their skills are useful but more then not, Most players will run through and entire mission without even once using a frame's skill.

[MJ12]

Ugh your number one is one of Trinity's skills. Its one of the things that make the Trinity frame unique and desired for team play.

The fact that you need a Trinity in the group to use your abilities with any frequency is bad gameplay. Given that they basically entirely changed one of Ember's skills from "stuns enemies in an area" to "fire shield which protects against damage and also deals damage", it's not like they can't alter the skill.

Anyways, the thing about "regain energy for dealing damage" is that it also still keeps the frames playing the same. I had a huge post (two in fact) about how to make Frames more unique, I think I might have to resurrect one of those threads.

But one of the things I brought up is that Warframes should regenerate energy in a way that encourages them to play their role.

So Rhino's an in-your-face tank. It shouldn't regenerate energy from doing damage. It should regenerate energy from taking damage. That does create an interesting cycle where you take a bunch of damage and use it to power your invulnerability...

...and that's awesome and working as intended. Especially since while invulnerable, you aren't taking any damage, so you aren't regenerating energy.

The casters should regenerate energy from dealing damage via abilities combined with a bit of drip so they can use their basic 25 energy one in case they miss with all their shots.

Etc etc.

[Nocturo]

Right now all skills are luxuary, like super weapon that's used only on special occasions. And right now player's character forms on mods he using. Someone boosting his shields, other stacking melee-damage and generally it's a good thing, but it's completely independent from player's WarFrame.

Totally agree with this one + really good suggestions. Abilities should be something that we use often, they add more variety and fun, than the usual gunning-everything playstyle. After all firearms can be found in most other games, but the idea of a WF + abilities it's what makes this game one of the rare gems.

[GhostinDuhBox]

This seems pretty sound to me.

Although there are some people out there who do use their abilities quite frequently as it is. I for one use my excalibur's abilities quite often when I can, such as in a large room with lots of mobs and hit the blind ability or in a narrow corridor and hit the sword dash.

Frames need hats. Give each frame a unique hat please. This revolutionary charge will solve frame uniqueness issues among your consumer base.

Honestly, since we're crafting them ourselves we should be allowed to modify them in certain ways to alter their appearence, as long as the base warframe is still visible. Would make the warframe we create feel a little more like our own.

[Tetsmeha]

Excalibur jump could be kept the same if the smash attack was based on distance jumped. It would make people glad you can't spam it anymore, and add to the upcoming stealth mechanics as you should be able to jump on enemies and use the smash on them to do tons of damage.

Also, there definately needs to be a better energy system. For example, lets look at Excalibur, Ash, and Volt, and Ember. Volt is an offensive caster, with defensive abilities. Where as Ember is a super offensive caster meant to wreck havoc. As of now, volt is extremely better because you can 1 shot bosses and nuke 2 rooms with 1 cast. Now with Excalibur and Ash, Excalibur has 2 damage moves and 2 utility moves, and Ash as well. Despite both being melee classes, they are far too similar, and Ash's invisibilty is pretty short.

Either frames should have skills(with a new energy system) that support a playstyle, or frames should have drastically different stats to encourage a play style ex. Ash having backstab damage, or having his ult scale with his sword total damage, or Excalibur having higher defensive stats compared to Ash.

[Tetsmeha]

Honestly, since we're crafting them ourselves we should be allowed to modify them in certain ways to alter their appearence, as long as the base warframe is still visible. Would make the warframe we create feel a little more like our own.

This would be good in a cash shop too. Spiral Knights did the same where the base equipment can be accesorized with cool looking additions.

[Keagian]

Between Excalibur and Ash, their's no real reason to pick up Ash since Excalibur trumps him in every catagory besides having an amazing 4th ability that clears a room. Like I mentioned before, only real reason to get Ash is for visuals since his skills are pretty redundent to use except Blade Dance and occasionally smoke screen. Least Excalibur gets high jump that costs only 10 energy.

[PapaKarlo]

Given some thought and more game expierience, I come up with thought, that energy regen will be ok if developers will somehow limit the usage of ultimate skills of every character. For example, Excalibur's "Radial Javelin" is ok, since its limited range, it's using is pretty situational and not forcing players to prefer it over every other skill. Meanwhile Volt's "Overload" basically teaches players to hold 100 energy for their ultimate. Since it's PvE game, I think it's ok, that we got so powerfull and spectacular skills, but still its usage should be limited, because ot makes Volts completely ignore their other skills, as "energy wastefull".

4. Divide "uber" skill from others. To ensure players won't be backed in using their main skills to keep energy for uber-skill. I think, the most handfull solution is "charge" system (I'm sure, you'll made up some wierd word for that). Fighting/healing/tanking will filling special bar until player will be able to use his most powerfull ability. Each class could have different bar-lenght so we can keep devastating area damage skills and still got them balanced with less harmfull abilities like Loki's "Radial Disarm". Since their "rage/charge"-bar will be shorter, their skills will be using more often.

[CompositeGNFNR]

Frames need hats. Give each frame a unique hat please. This revolutionary charge will solve frame uniqueness issues among your consumer base.

I agree, without hats this game is dead.

[Kittygoesmeow]

Given some thought and more game expierience, I come up with thought, that energy regen will be ok if developers will somehow limit the usage of ultimate skills of every character. For example, Excalibur's "Radial Javelin" is ok, since its limited range, it's using is pretty situational and not forcing players to prefer it over every other skill. Meanwhile Volt's "Overload" basically teaches players to hold 100 energy for their ultimate. Since it's PvE game, I think it's ok, that we got so powerfull and spectacular skills, but still its usage should be limited, because ot makes Volts completely ignore their other skills, as "energy wastefull".

4. Divide "uber" skill from others. To ensure players won't be backed in using their main skills to keep energy for uber-skill. I think, the most handfull solution is "charge" system (I'm sure, you'll made up some wierd word for that). Fighting/healing/tanking will filling special bar until player will be able to use his most powerfull ability. Each class could have different bar-lenght so we can keep devastating area damage skills and still got them balanced with less harmfull abilities like Loki's "Radial Disarm". Since their "rage/charge"-bar will be shorter, their skills will be using more often.

no.

the current energy system works for the game and your 'charge' suggsetion would make efficiency mods utterly useless. i enjoy being able to have a panic button, with +85% energy efficiency i can waste ALL human bosses and i like it like that. overload is an OP skill, true, but it was also heavily nerfed. it does half the damage it did and has a waaaay smaller range. the problem with ultis' is that people are partying AND spamming them which is a bad idea. leave the ultis alone, theyre either panic buttons or help in solo play.

...that being said trinity skills are not useless. give her a gorgon, pop a healing well or an energy well on an elite troop, and watch her get 300 HP and 250 energy.. especcially a gorgon with +90% total elec. +75% firing rate, and +120% multishot or 90% stun chance. on all bosses shed be unstoppable. her last skill, her full heal, does need to be changed for something offensive though. maybe a team-wide buff that increases damage a certain amount per level? trinity is already a factor in infinite skill spam for human bosses. if only she wasnt so...brittle.

[Harazard]

Would be nice to make some Warframes use some kind of elemental gloves or what ever you can think of to use as an alternative.For Example the Volt can shoot some lightings from his hands but will overheat if used too much.Ember using Flame shaped swords(or shoot some small orbs of flame at others) to do the killing also the more Ember uses flames to kill the lower the damage is (casting too much flame orbs will decrease damage).And lastly Excalibur,Loki, Can use guns for ranged purposes.And the Rhino will not be able to use any ranged weapons but instead he gets great Damage Resistance and Better Melee damage with Blunt weapons (Hammer,FURAX ) or alternatively make two diffrent Trees of the Rhino:One which is Heavy Weapons Specialist(ShotGuns,Heavy MG etc.) and Melee superiority tree which gives Armor and Shield pluses Taunts and melee damage bonuses.And the Ash will be a Ninja oriented Warframe(Ninjas are good at ambushes and don't really go head on fighting like a Space Rambo)which will be able to carry Pistols but rarely rifles(Even if they do they can carry a Burston but with slight penalty) and more importantly he will have some great bonuses specificly for Swords like better range damage power effectivness.And Lastly MAG well...i have no idea what changes she can see....

Edited January 15, 2013 by Harazard

[PapaKarlo]

no.

the current energy system works for the game and your 'charge' suggsetion would make efficiency mods utterly useless. i enjoy being able to have a panic button, with +85% energy efficiency i can waste ALL human bosses and i like it like that. overload is an OP skill, true, but it was also heavily nerfed. it does half the damage it did and has a waaaay smaller range. the problem with ultis' is that people are partying AND spamming them which is a bad idea. leave the ultis alone, theyre either panic buttons or help in solo play.

At this right moment we have Volts, that running levells only to harvest all energy orbs and overload every room they can, that's giving them new energy orbs to repeat to the win. It's a great and spectacular skill and nerfing it will be a shame. And if people don't spam it, they are running with their "panic" button and don't using other skills instead. I'm sure, other classes got similar issues.

My way won't get your "panic" button away, you'll "charge" and use it when you decide you need to. And you won't be restricted to use other abilities - that is the main point. As I wrote in first post, all the difference of classes in their abilities, and some classes don't use them cuz of their "panic" buttons.

Changing some mods isn't problem at all, since many things in game will be changed.

[Kittygoesmeow]

At this right moment we have Volts, that running levells only to harvest all energy orbs and overload every room they can, that's giving them new energy orbs to repeat to the win. It's a great and spectacular skill and nerfing it will be a shame. And if people don't spam it, they are running with their "panic" button and don't using other skills instead. I'm sure, other classes got similar issues.

My way won't get your "panic" button away, you'll "charge" and use it when you decide you need to. And you won't be restricted to use other abilities - that is the main point. As I wrote in first post, all the difference of classes in their abilities, and some classes don't use them cuz of their "panic" buttons.

Changing some mods isn't problem at all, since many things in game will be changed.

lets say im playing an infested mission or a grineer mission and -suddenly- theres fifteen guys and five elite troops. i use my panic ubtton and five rooms later i get swamped AGAIN. i wouldnt have a panic button and game over.

meh. its ultimitely up to the player to race for the energy, if they dont have loot radar then thats their bad luck. its a case of blame the player not the game.

limiting a skill because its powerful - in a game where you use all your powers - is just a bad idea to me.

[PapaKarlo]

lets say im playing an infested mission or a grineer mission and -suddenly- theres fifteen guys and five elite troops. i use my panic ubtton and five rooms later i get swamped AGAIN. i wouldnt have a panic button and game over.

meh. its ultimitely up to the player to race for the energy, if they dont have loot radar then thats their bad luck. its a case of blame the player not the game.

limiting a skill because its powerful - in a game where you use all your powers - is just a bad idea to me.

I don't see your point. I suggest "shoot to charge your panic button" and that's simply the same thing that we have now, without ability to spam it. Because you need to shoot some or use other skills to charge your panic button.

You've describe the situation, when player DON'T use his skills because otherwise he won't be able to use his "panic"-skill.

Limiting one super-skill for every class - in a game where you don't use any of your powers except this "super" - is a nice way to return other skills in play.

[Ronyn]

The fact that you need a Trinity in the group to use your abilities with any frequency is bad gameplay.

darn good point.

Given that they basically entirely changed one of Ember's skills from "stuns enemies in an area" to "fire shield which protects against damage and also deals damage", it's not like they can't alter the skill.

Another good point.

Anyways, the thing about "regain energy for dealing damage" is that it also still keeps the frames playing the same.

Only somewhat true.

Its fair to say that "dealing damage" is a rather wide concept.

Consdiering it can be done through guns,melee, or powers it leave a lot of room for differentation.

This is mostly concerning for how it would effect healing and potentially stealth play.

But one of the things I brought up is that Warframes should regenerate energy in a way that encourages them to play their role.

A role too easily defined by a limited definition and therefore needlessly constrained.

So Rhino's an in-your-face tank. It shouldn't regenerate energy from doing damage. It should regenerate energy from taking damage. That does create an interesting cycle where you take a bunch of damage and use it to power your invulnerability...

...and that's awesome and working as intended. Especially since while invulnerable, you aren't taking any damage, so you aren't regenerating energy.

yet now every rhino player is LOCKED IN to making sure he gets hit instead of evading.

Iron skin becomes something you likely have to focus on because you are sitting trying to get hit.

so if I wanted to spend my energy specifcally on rihno charge and the radial attacks too darn bad for me right?

Its one thing to make it so you ONLY regain energy from getting hit WHILE iron skin is active....

but making getting hit the only way forces the rhino into a certain playstyle.

You have effectively created variation between rhino and others but taking away many of the rhinos choices.

The casters should regenerate energy from dealing damage via abilities combined with a bit of drip so they can use their basic 25 energy one in case they miss with all their shots.

What defines a caster?

Is volt a caster? So now I cant set up my sheild to force enemies to wait there turn or try to close in on me while I rely on the speed ability to be a fast moving slice and dice master because i need to spend more time shooting the lightning bolt?

Too bad for my personal build right.....someone decided that volt is a caster so thats how I have to play him.

Forcing the frames to play a "role" will create diversity BEWTEEM frames but lesson diversity WITHIN the frames.

We loose as much as we gain.

That is change not improvement.

If frames can build up energy in a VARIETY of ways then people will be able to play them in a variety of ways.

If all frames regain energy from doing everything from causing damage to taking damage then people are still able to play to certain power or frames strength but arent locked in to doing so.

[FuzioNda1337]

Biggest problem i have with the game is loki, he has 0 good abilities except for his invisability.

illusion is ok early on but becomes none existant later on, especially compared to godmode invisability its so much better.

and the swap is also completly crap!

now i dont have radial so dunno what it does compared to disarm so i guess it deals no dmg right? wich comes to my conclusion loki is suppose to spamm invicability?

same problem diablo 3 had with demon hunter spamm one spell.

Give us some nuke damage ability please :) im sure a lot other classes have same problem im working towards my rhino atm so up to see how that one is later on.

But as it seems all classes have same problem except for excalibur wich my friend uses, its basicly 1shot nuke on the charge, an example is during fight with jackal i nuke the legg down sitting around a pilar once i drop him down he charges boom he takes so much dmg he goes up again on his legs so lets say i wanna solo i cannot do that kind of damage that fast takes me forever to solo him.

im okey with being a CC class but if im gonna be a CC class i would like to have good CC:s not S#&$ty ones.

so either buff the cc:s S#&$loads and change them or give loki some damaging abilities aswell.

Like for instance why dont u add 30% of your damage to your illusions the higher stenght the more damage from illusion or maybe spawn 2 illusions?

and the swap make it stun bosses aswell? becuse there is no way in @(*()$ hell you would waste that much energy to cc a mob you would kill otherwise in 2 seconds.

[Infekt1on]

*Drools* I want it all