Coptering Discussed In Depth (Like Really In Depth) And Arguments On Why It Needs To Change.

[Aure7]

Changes to coptering should only be done if sprint speeds, stamina consumtion and parkour get improved: (parkour thread here) https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119650-parkour-has-been-ignored-for-too-long-its-the-key-element-in-making-warframe-gameplay-unique-and-fresh/

 

Also a great thread on butt-scooting which I also dislike and wished it went trough similar changes

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/293045-running-should-be-as-fast-as-butt-scooting-updated-180814/

Give this man a potato, well maybe an upvote too.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

First of all, coptering is constantly being titled as an "emergent gameplay" or "bug that turned into a feature" or simply something that is so fun that developers are simply afraid/unwilling to fix it. Also it is often being compared to rocket jumping in tf2 or skiing in tribes ascend because they all are mobility features invented by players. Sadly in tf2 and tribes it has received proper treatement in visual and game design sense whereas in warframe it's still highly untouched.

 

I'll compare coptering to rocket jumping in tf2 since so many of you think "it's just like it, valve didn't remove it cause it's this and that, why would DE then ruin the fun..."

(also correct me if I am wrong somewhere about tf2 or tribes ascend, I've been playing tf2 since 2009 may)

 

If coptering is pushed towards what rocket jumping is in tf2, with balance, animations and all that, I think all of us would finally calm down.

 

Now there's also usual "why all of you keep complaining about fun? Why do you want to take fun away?". I'll be honest, old ago, I used to hate coptering so much I wanted it completely gone. But now I would be really sad for all of you if one day suddenly it was gone. This whole "war" (you can pretty much call it that after so much arguing) at least from my perspective is not to ruin all the fun you are having. It doesn't hurt me if people use it once in a while. But you're only kind of right when you say "don't like it don't use it, you can do your silly parkour and sprinting while I am having fun".

 

I said it before and I'll say it again, from my experience, it really itches me when somebody just keeps spamming that darn thing, even when they not necessarily have proper gear and mods to make it effective.

- Why sprint? I'll just keep spamming it entire mission and it will do a way better job than any sprinting.

- Also all those wallrunning sections level designers made? Well coptering does a better job, why bother?

- Oh you're crafting zephyr cause you like to fly all over the levels in ridiculous speeds? Why bother? My zorens already does a decent job at that. Wormholes? Teleporting? Lol wat I can't hear you over the sound of my zorens.

This is where I am sure some of us hate it.

 

So to find that perfect balance where the concept stays but it would truly become a feature.

- I think coptering could be detached from melee weapons. Or to be more exact, keep the maneuver but make it more stamina costly and unaffected by melee attack rate, which would hopefully make it a maneuver for combat rather than flying. Then possibly an equipable for all warframes could be introduced that lets you perform similar thing with some costs and some sort of proper context (a dash, jump or something).

- Or maybe it should stay bound to melee weapons as a different button combo (leaving usual melee slide attack available), but made equal on all melee weapons (or maybe a new stat rather than attack rate). Then maybe given requirements such as channeling to perform and again some animations that make more sense.

- Or maybe it would be great to allow the maneuver as long as the end strike actually hits an enemy, but make it do a longer recovery animation if it does not. You could still use it to deal death on the field, but have bad cooldown if spammed randomly. As suggested by DSpite (I luv it)

- Or maybe split spin attack into 2 different moves like told here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/245914-why-not-2-different-slide-attacks/

- Also it would help if this would get implemented (suggested this long ago):

Sprinting should gain a little speed increase over some time, so for example you would gain maximum speed after 3 seconds, but that would be faster than slipping and coptering because you would need to regain maximum speed after every slip.

numbers should be minimal, just for the very purpose of making sprinting THE fastest way to travel long and flat distances. Parkour would still be superiour way of travel in complicated levels.

more on this https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/145178-how-to-fix-coptering-and-butt-sliding-without-removing-them-from-the-game/#entry1720451

 

TL;DR: With this thread I tried to collect all the arguments (mine and others) into one organised place. Basically I am saying that I don't want to upset players by completely removing it, most of people who dislike it just want it to make more sense visually, want it to be more balanced and not bound to some melee weapons.

Or just go here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/293073-why-do-people-dislike-coptering/page-13#entry3362617 and read what TL;DR of it everyone has made.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Aure7

[Meenmu]

Huh. I read "like really in depth" and thought this was going to be a topic about coptering after swimming is added.

[Somedude1000]

I like your arguments, unfortunately the devs said in a stream that they plan to keep coptering because it 'feeds into the movement "feel" of warframe :/

 

 

It is reasonably unlikely they'll remove it anytime soon, till then, we can do our best to avoid using it if we don't like it, i guess

Edited August 21, 2014 by Somedude1000

[Mama_Sasha]

 

It is reasonably unlikely they'll remove it anytime soon, till then, we can do our best to avoid using it if we don't like it, i guess

True, but there is a problem with choptering people. When new people join Warframe, the newbies gets left behind MILES away durning missions since the choptering people rushed ahead, and then name calling the new players with harsh and hurtful comments. Gotta bless those locked bypassable doors.

[Aure7]

 

It is reasonably unlikely they'll remove it anytime soon

you didn't read the tread. I am upset.

I never asked for this. All I talk about in it is how to modify it and please as many players as possible.

[KuroShiranui]

I remember your old thread, asking for a parkour-like alternative to coptering, which is increase-over-time sprinting. But hey, the option to change coptering to something else is a good idea too, would bring some variety in gameplay.

I think the coptering distance should be reduced for it to be an effective combat maneuver, even with atk speed mods installed. So its usefulness only lies in aoe attacking.

 

 

Huh. I read "like really in depth" and thought this was going to be a topic about coptering after swimming is added.

 

inb4underwatercopteringexploit

[FrostBittenHero]

"Then possibly an equipable for all warframes could be introduced that lets you perform similar thing with some costs and some sort of proper context (a dash, jump or something)."

 

I like the idea of each warframe having a mobility power as a small helper to the coptering problem.  I was thinking about starting a thread on ways DE could implement more powers for each frame.  I think the best would be something like this;  Frost could skate/slide around on ice, Mag could pull HERSELF to a certain location etc.  This would also give room for these frame to have another ability that's good in combat rather than getting out of it.

[notionphil]

Aure, your stated issues with coptering seem to relate to its lack of balance; both between weapons (eg high copter vs low copter) and with other abilities (eg: movement abilities). I believe that you, as well as many copter-haters, have an undercurrent of dislike for it in favor of an imaginary "better parkour" system. We have to compare real options. Removing coptering won't create better parkour. It will just remove any modicum of skill based movement speed increase.

 

I can say for the record that I like coptering as it provides me with a quasi skill based way to move faster than vanilla sprinting. I would be equally happy, if not happier with even more skill based speed hierarchy, such as creative parkour > coptering + sliding combo > coptering > sprinting > jogging.

 

I actually find that there is some degree of balance within coptering weapon types. The uber weapons such as Nikana have slow copters, whereas short range daggers and unwieldy whips have higher copter speed. I like the concept of weapon copter speed as a balance factor, in a game with such a freeform definition of balance.

 

I agree that coptering removes the need for movement based abilities, and that's an issue. I believe that movement based abilities should be given a balance pass, and their drawbacks (lack of momentum, not scaling with weapon damage etc) should be addressed. I'd personally love to see movement ability damage scale with melee damage EX: slashdash: 2x slide attack damage and momentum. I don't see this as a problem with coptering, but a problem with lackluster movement abilities in need of a buff.

 

While I'd prefer true parkour to coptering, it appears a real parkour system that would allow reliable movement through many tiles is a long way out. With Archwings and swimming on the horizon (instead of stealth and parkour...*sigh*), I believe coptering will and should remain at the top of the speed food chain for some time.

[Kestral9999]

Hmm, so after reading this I came up with a sort of solution.

 

DE could:

 

Make coptering do more damage while also making it a tiny bit more appealing with a special animation that shows your character holding still for a moment after the slide attack.

 

Not the best picture but I think it gets the idea across:

 

Not only would that remove some of the appeal of coptering as a mobility tool but it would also be more "ninja".

 

Either that or they can add some slide attack combos for each weapon type.

[Prany]

Hmm, so after reading this I came up with a sort of solution.

 

DE could:

 

Make coptering do more damage while also making it a tiny bit more appealing with a special animation that shows your character holding still for a moment after the slide attack.

 

Not the best picture but I think it gets the idea across:

 

Not only would that remove some of the appeal of coptering as a mobility tool but it would also be more "ninja".

 

Either that or they can add some slide attack combos for each weapon type.

That is good idea to limit coptering, but unfortunately it would be another slowdown for melee combat and it is suffering from sluggish movements as is.

[Kestral9999]

That is good idea to limit coptering, but unfortunately it would be another slowdown for melee combat and it is suffering from sluggish movements as is.

I feel like just an extra .5 - .75 seconds of not moving at blistering speeds wouldn't slow it down too much, on top of that as I suggested you'd get a nice little attack boost as well. While a lot of melee combat is sluggish, coptering needs to be made more-so in my opinion. I love slipping but coptering is just ridiculously fast.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Kestral9999

[DSpite]

I don't really have any useful input, I think.

 

I personally stick with the team at all times, and copter around to either catch up, or briefly jump to spots nearby if the team is busy obliterating everything, and try and clear cameras. sensors, that sort of thing, then I usually wait.

 

Forward-flipping a lot was my default move with a Rhino just to keep up with teams, pre weapon-coptering, as it is still a lot faster then sprinting, so ... not sure.

 

The only useful thing I can say - and it still sounds silly in my head - would be to allow the maneuver as long as the end strike actually hits an enemy, but make it do a longer recovery animation if it does not. You could still use it to deal death on the field, but have bad cooldown if spammed randomly. I know it does not make sense, I just don't know how you would "nerf" a mechanic that has become pretty much a standard atm.

[Lukap99]

Oh and I also kinda hate that constant bouncing and sliding on butts to get some speed. But nobody seems to be so mad about that. Same rules apply to it as well, the best solution would be that gradual sprint speed increase I mentioned earlier.

I made a thing about that, it sort of died out.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/293045-running-should-be-as-fast-as-butt-scooting-updated-180814/

[Lukap99]

The only useful thing I can say - and it still sounds silly in my head - would be to allow the maneuver as long as the end strike actually hits an enemy, but make it do a longer recovery animation if it does not. You could still use it to deal death on the field, but have bad cooldown if spammed randomly. I know it does not make sense, I just don't know how you would "nerf" a mechanic that has become pretty much a standard atm.

That actually does make some sense. You could still use it, but spamming it causes you to suffer.

[Tr1ples1xer]

coptering is now an OFFICIAL feature, please stop trying to remove it or even change it, its part of what makes WF so fun. 

 

Its done, its staying as is, can we move on now please ?

[Lukap99]

coptering is now an OFFICIAL feature, please stop trying to remove it or even change it, its part of what makes WF so fun. 

 

Its done, its staying as is, can we move on now please ?

It's funny because OP predicted this reply would happen.

 

If coptering is pushed towards what rocket jumping is in tf2, with balance, animations and all that, I think all of us would finally calm down.

 

Now there's also usual "why all of you keep complaining about fun? Why do you want to take fun away?". I'll be honest, old ago, I used to hate coptering so much I wanted it completely gone. But countless discussions were not wasted. I would be really sad for all of you if one day suddenly it was gone. This whole "war" (you can pretty much call it that after so much arguing) at least from my perspective is not to ruin all the fun you are having. It doesn't hurt me if people use it once in a while. But you're only kind of right when you say "don't like it don't use it, you can do your silly parkour and sprinting while I am having fun".

 

I said it before and I'll say it again, from my experience, it really itches me when somebody just keeps spamming that darn thing, even when they not necessarily have proper gear and mods to make it effective.

- Why sprint? I'll just keep spamming it entire mission and it will do a way better job than any sprinting.

- Also all those wallrunning sections level designers made? Well coptering does a better job, why bother?

- Oh you're crafting zephyr cause you like to fly all over the levels in ridiculous speeds? Why bother? My zorens already does a decent job at that. Wormholes? Teleporting? Lol wat I can't hear you over the sound of my zorens.

This is where I am sure some of us hate it.

[pkfire.]

Ah rocket jumping. Haven't done that in a while. Grenade jumping in past games was fun as well. On topic, coptering is useful and fun but I do agree it could be tweaked a bit since it has been official announced to be in the game by DE.

[Tr1ples1xer]

i dont care, op is wasting his time, coptering is the name of the game, dont like it dont use it, its really that simple.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[Aure7]

i dont care, op is wasting his time, coptering is the name of the game, dont like it dont use it, its really that simple.

I predicted this answer as well. Made a bunch of arguments for this and your previous answers. My thread is also not asking for complete removal of copter.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Aure7

[Lukap99]

I predicted this answer as well.

Aure7 confirmed for psychic. Commence stealing his crystal ball that gazes into the future.

[Tr1ples1xer]

I predicted this answer as well. Made a bunch of arguments for this and your previous answers. My thread is also not asking for complete removal of copter.

thats because its the only answeer possible, you also predicted that i wouldnt read a single word of your post, i still dont care , dont change what is the foundation of the whole game.

 

let it go. move on please.

[RainDreamer]

i dont care, op is wasting his time, coptering is the name of the game, dont like it dont use it, its really that simple.

Someone is deliberately trying to not read the thread.

 

OP is asking for better coptering. Making it a full fledge feature like jet skiiing in tribes, or rocket jumping in TF2, instead of being in a limbo of "kinda not a glitch" state it is in now.

[RainDreamer]

bah, double post. 

 

Edited August 21, 2014 by RainDreamer

[Tr1ples1xer]

Someone is deliberately trying to not read the thread.

 

OP is asking for better coptering. Making it a full fledge feature like jet skiiing in tribes, or rocket jumping in TF2, instead of being in a limbo of "kinda not a glitch" state it is in now.

its not in limbo its officially official now, what do you want more? it does not need balancing it does not need change imo , dont screw up the best thing in the game !!

[Aure7]

I don't really have any useful input, I think.

 

I personally stick with the team at all times, and copter around to either catch up, or briefly jump to spots nearby if the team is busy obliterating everything, and try and clear cameras. sensors, that sort of thing, then I usually wait.

 

Forward-flipping a lot was my default move with a Rhino just to keep up with teams, pre weapon-coptering, as it is still a lot faster then sprinting, so ... not sure.

 

The only useful thing I can say - and it still sounds silly in my head - would be to allow the maneuver as long as the end strike actually hits an enemy, but make it do a longer recovery animation if it does not. You could still use it to deal death on the field, but have bad cooldown if spammed randomly. I know it does not make sense, I just don't know how you would "nerf" a mechanic that has become pretty much a standard atm.

 

I made a thing about that, it sort of died out.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/293045-running-should-be-as-fast-as-butt-scooting-updated-180814/

 

I love both of these suggestions, Included in the OP if that's ok.