You Say You Want Difficulty, But You Really Want Depth

[Aizeol]

Right now Warframe is probably my favorite game, but I will be one of the first to admit it isn't done.  It is coming along beautifully, but beta is beta.

 

Now, I've seen a lot of thread saying something to the effect of "Warframe is too easy!  Make it harder!"  and then every time something is added to make it harder everyone cries "Warframe is too hard, make it easier!!"

 

This cycle will continue until the end of the game's life which will be shortened if everyone keeps saying "harder" or "challenging" without actually giving either an example or some kind of direction.

 

Let me make this clear: YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE JUST HARDER, YOU WANT DEPTH AND COMPLEXITY THAT YOU HAVE TO LEARN!

 

Watch this video for a more professional wording, but it says the same thing: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/depth-vs-complexity/

 

Trust me, you want a system with nuances that you must discover and then find out how they relate to the rest of the game.

 

You don't want enemies that hit like trucks and you only get a one-button attack.

[JakeDemetrio]

+1 for this bro. I completely agree.

[fauxhb]

well said.

[Ghobe]

2 things.

 

 

 

Now, I've seen a lot of thread saying something to the effect of "Warframe is too easy!  Make it harder!"  and then every time something is added to make it harder everyone cries "Warframe is too hard, make it easier!!"

These are not the same people.

 

 

 

You don't want enemies that hit like trucks and you only get a one-button attack.

Only people suggesting changes in a mocking form are asking for this. The rest of us want mechanical difficulty. Aspects of the AI that we need to outwit, the inability to use cover due to what the enemy does, steps that need to be taken to hurt enemies, multi-phase boss fights, memorable boss fights, more forms of content that are difficult beyond just defense and 1 or 2 boss fights, something that challenges us mentally. I've given large numbers of suggestions as to how a lot of this can be accomplished in the past, but people just kind of ignore me and go back to yelling at each other :\

Edited April 15, 2013 by Ghobe

[Aizeol]

 

These are not the same people.

 

 

That may be true, but these are both players playing this game, so neither one is really helping by vaguely saying "harder" or "easier"

 

As for your second point, I was exaggerating that right now we can shoot or melee and that's it.  There isn't much difference between guns, and besides bolt weapons they operate the same and just do more or less damage.

[Aizeol]

Also, this is a tremendous video that also demonstrates my point:

 

http://extra-credits.net/episodes/easy-games/

[ReiganCross]

Right now Warframe is probably my favorite game, but I will be one of the first to admit it isn't done.  It is coming along beautifully, but beta is beta.

 

Now, I've seen a lot of thread saying something to the effect of "Warframe is too easy!  Make it harder!"  and then every time something is added to make it harder everyone cries "Warframe is too hard, make it easier!!"

 

This cycle will continue until the end of the game's life which will be shortened if everyone keeps saying "harder" or "challenging" without actually giving either an example or some kind of direction.

 

Let me make this clear: YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE JUST HARDER, YOU WANT DEPTH AND COMPLEXITY THAT YOU HAVE TO LEARN!

 

Watch this video for a more professional wording, but it says the same thing: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/depth-vs-complexity/

 

Trust me, you want a system with nuances that you must discover and then find out how they relate to the rest of the game.

 

You don't want enemies that hit like trucks and you only get a one-button attack.

Thank you!... I agree the S#&$ out of you!

[RedMonarch]

I totally agree, level complexity and variety are all I want. Corpus, Grineer and Infested (in the mid to high levels) are hard enough as it is i.e the new grineer fire rates. Anywhom, I like what you have said my friend, I feel they've already done this with some of the recent additions to the random generate maps. What I'm talking about is the parkour-able areas, they're actually made for more then just simple wall running or slide+jumping. There's the hallway/catwalk area for the new grineer additions in which you jump up, wall run, jump to the other side, wall run, repeat, that sort of thing is cool. But then theres the insane catwalk areas with 3-4 stories or so of just cat walks. Me and my friend got swarmed and I had to run and save her, and finding the stairs wasn't an option if we wanted to live. We ended up taking a sort of leap of faith, or rather wall run of faith, we wall ran up a wall which was parallel to a wall like support, back flipped back and forth and ended up into the 2nd or third story of the cat walks, relatively safe from fire. I like stuff like this, where we need to think on the spot and improvise using the environment or other things to solve our problems, not just shooting an explosive barrel and hope it does something.

[Ghobe]

That may be true, but these are both players playing this game, so neither one is really helping by vaguely saying "harder" or "easier"

The problem is right now, most changes are blanket changes going out to all of the content. I'll tell you right now, I'd be happy with just one planet deemed 'hard content'.

 

There isn't much difference between guns, and besides bolt weapons they operate the same and just do more or less damage.

This is true, but it doesn't relate to difficulty.

[Aizeol]

The problem is right now, most changes are blanket changes going out to all of the content. I'll tell you right now, I'd be happy with just one planet deemed 'hard content'.

 

 

 

This is true, but it doesn't relate to difficulty.

 

Ok, I realize that you are agreeing with me in a way.  You don't want this game to become insanely difficult, but you want challenge.  I must ask, however, why do you feel you must resist what I am saying?

 

Obviously the later areas will be just straight harder than the earlier areas.  Why would that not happen?  What I'm saying is that if there are to be any "blanketing" changes, don't make the game harder/easier from level 1.

 

Make the game complex and make the game harder not by having to execute difficult manuvers, but by adding more strategies that may not be needed in the earlier levels, but by the time you're on the "last" or highest level planet you need to have several strategies that you have mastered and can execute at any given moment.

 

Does that sound better?

[Ghobe]

Ok, I realize that you are agreeing with me in a way.  You don't want this game to become insanely difficult, but you want challenge.  I must ask, however, why do you feel you must resist what I am saying?

Oh we're on the same page about how I want things done(that sounds awful selfish lol). I'm just clarifying/correcting some things.

 

Obviously the later areas will be just straight harder than the earlier areas.  Why would that not happen?

Right now the game doesn't get any harder than the level.....15-20ish areas(no more new enemy types)? Beyond that it's just higher health/damage which is...not difficulty. So where exactly am I to assume this will hold true? ;p

 

I mean if they go and rewrite half the game to have a difficulty curve, be my guest. Especially if there's that challenging content on the horizon for me to work towards. I'd finally have a reason to pick the game back up, but until then...it is a dust magnet.

[Tsusuya]

Ok, I realize that you are agreeing with me in a way.  You don't want this game to become insanely difficult, but you want challenge.  I must ask, however, why do you feel you must resist what I am saying?

 

Obviously the later areas will be just straight harder than the earlier areas.  Why would that not happen?  What I'm saying is that if there are to be any "blanketing" changes, don't make the game harder/easier from level 1.

 

Make the game complex and make the game harder not by having to execute difficult manuvers, but by adding more strategies that may not be needed in the earlier levels, but by the time you're on the "last" or highest level planet you need to have several strategies that you have mastered and can execute at any given moment.

 

Does that sound better?

 

Q.Q ... i'm gonna cry T_T thats it... he.. he, he UNDERSTANDS ME!!!

[Tsusuya]

Oh we're on the same page about how I want things done(that sounds awful selfish lol). I'm just clarifying/correcting some things.

 

Right now the game doesn't get any harder than the level.....15-20ish areas(no more new enemy types)? Beyond that it's just higher health/damage which is...not difficulty. So where exactly am I to assume this will hold true? ;p

 

I mean if they go and rewrite half the game to have a difficulty curve, be my guest. Especially if there's that challenging content on the horizon for me to work towards. I'd finally have a reason to pick the game back up, but until then...it is a dust magnet.

 WOWS!, relax man, you are forgetting that it is not "finish". this is a game in progress, and what we have here is a chance to share some input into a lovely work of art! ...

this is exactly where you are to assume this holds true!

the game HAS to change, that much is a given, the way of change comes from this very forums; whether they listens to your ideas or not might only determine if its is ideal withing the path of the game...

don't just disagree with someone else's because yours was closely related...also remember that unlike other game forums, you get the chance to "Re-post" many ideas as chances pop up again, is not over, the developers haven't quit, why would you?

Edited April 15, 2013 by Tsusuya

[Aizeol]

Q.Q ... i'm gonna cry T_T thats it... he.. he, he UNDERSTANDS ME!!!

 

I do what I can. :]

[Ghobe]

 WOWS!, relax man, you are forgetting that it is not "finish". this is a game in progress, and what we have here is a chance to share some input into a lovely work of art! ... this is exactly where you are to assume this holds true! the game HAS to change, that much is a given, the way of change comes from this very forums; whether they listens to your ideas or not might only determine if its is ideal withing the path of the game... don't just disagree with someone else's because yours was closely related...also remember that unlike other game forums, you get the chance to "Re-post" many ideas as chances pop up again, is not over, the developers haven't quit, why would you?

I said I'm not playing the game until change happens, I didn't say I'll never play again. I'm also not straight up disagreeing with him.  I'm clarifying points, it's possible to do that without disagreeing with the whole thing.

[RedEye88]

I WANT BOTH

Problem?

Yea i dont care as long as it gets more of any or both...just develop more of something im bored right now.

[Aizeol]

I WANT BOTH

Problem?

Yea i dont care as long as it gets more of any or both...just develop more of something im bored right now.

 

See, but one will help bring new people in and help build the community while the other will only help those that have been playing sine the beginning which will more likely cause Warframe to fail.

 

We need DE to succeed and we want them to.  A game that is just generically harder will not accomplish that.

[Story4]

 

If there was anyone correct about anything, it is you. This game really needs more complexity and depth.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Story4

[MJ12]

See? This is a difficulty thread which is interesting, lays out actual game design concepts, and actually makes a good argument instead of "anyone who doesn't think this game is utterly trivial is a nub who needs to lrn2play".

 

Why can't other difficulty threads actually be this way? Instead of being oh-so-subtly condescending about anyone who isn't trivially soloing Pluto.

[Pixues]

Me run to finish,,,,,,me no like depth..

[Aizeol]

Me run to finish,,,,,,me no like depth..

 

But the depth really wouldn't catch up with you until the later planets that would have enemies that actually need A) teamwork and B) strategy.

 

Now, DE has said that they want the game to feel kinda face-rolly but they really want it to be a TEAM-BASED game.  By running to the end all you accomplish is leaving your team to die.

[MJ12]

But the depth really wouldn't catch up with you until the later planets that would have enemies that actually need A) teamwork and B) strategy.

 

Now, DE has said that they want the game to feel kinda face-rolly but they really want it to be a TEAM-BASED game.  By running to the end all you accomplish is leaving your team to die.

 

I think he was being sarcastic. That caveman-speak is a pretty good tell.

 

Anyways, yes, more depth, more options (and making some current options useful, like a whole bunch of powers), and more synergies in mechanics would be fantastic.

 

I mean, in terms of mechanical accuracy I'm not terribly great but I can beat the Crysis games on any difficulty because I can use mechanical synergies to make up for the fact that I can't make 5 headshots in 2 seconds. Stuff like 'know how to manage your own superhuman capabilities', vs, "make one mistake and you die".

[Ghobe]

Why can't other difficulty threads actually be this way? Instead of being oh-so-subtly condescending about anyone who isn't trivially soloing Pluto.

They are...you just keep getting hung up on the wrong people :\

[Aizeol]

I think he was being sarcastic. That caveman-speak is a pretty good tell.

 

Anyways, yes, more depth, more options (and making some current options useful, like a whole bunch of powers), and more synergies in mechanics would be fantastic.

 

I mean, in terms of mechanical accuracy I'm not terribly great but I can beat the Crysis games on any difficulty because I can use mechanical synergies to make up for the fact that I can't make 5 headshots in 2 seconds. Stuff like 'know how to manage your own superhuman capabilities', vs, "make one mistake and you die".

 

Yeah, I should have caught on to that.  Sadly, he does bring up a good point.  If all of the challenge comes from using team-based play and there is no way to beat levels without a team, what will happen to all of the solo-only players.

 

 

There needs to be a way that makes the game more challenging without making it impossible for players who don't want to be a team-player.

 

Remember, ninjas are devastating in teams but they don't always operate that way.

 

Basically, if you joined a team in the later levels the game should scale to make the players work as a team.  If you are soloing, I'm fairly certain the Lotus wouldn't send a lone tenno to the same place that required a group of 4.

[MJ12]

Yeah, I should have caught on to that.  Sadly, he does bring up a good point.  If all of the challenge comes from using team-based play and there is no way to beat levels without a team, what will happen to all of the solo-only players.

 

 

There needs to be a way that makes the game more challenging without making it impossible for players who don't want to be a team-player.

 

Remember, ninjas are devastating in teams but they don't always operate that way.

 

Basically, if you joined a team in the later levels the game should scale to make the players work as a team.  If you are soloing, I'm fairly certain the Lotus wouldn't send a lone tenno to the same place that required a group of 4.

 

Well the obvious answer would be MP-only enemies or SP-only weaknesses.

 

So, for example, you might have a giant Corpus robot which is only vulnerable to attacks from the rear in MP because of the thick armor plates in front. In SP, you could shoot off the armor plates, kill it by hitting its eyes, or it turns way slower. In MP, not so much.