You Say You Want Difficulty, But You Really Want Depth

[Aggh]

Wrong players like Jackal because he actually has mechanics and phases.

He has the machine gun if he's targeting you.

He has the stomp if he's near his target.

He has the grenade spread if he's near his target and just got up.

He has the adds constantly spawning in the room leaving booby traps all over.

He has the missiles in phase 2(though they need work, I've only actually seen them come back down to cause damage once).

His legs need to be damage before his body can be damaged.

His body can only take so much damage before his shields are raised back up.

^Mechanics.

Compare it to Hek.

He has a shield.

He has a health bar.

He spawns two adds in the beginning of the fight with the same name as him.

He runs away to cover if no one is in melee range.

^lack of mechanics.

Which is basically just a list of words that add up to the fact that you can beat jackal easily by spraying his leg from a distance.  There's a bit more depth, but Jackal is still incredibly underwhelming.  He just happens to be less underwhelming than the rest of the bosses and is easily incapacitated so bad players don't have to worry about aiming, sustaining damage, using the right skills, using cover etc.etc.

 

In fact, you could almost say that he's a poster child for depth without difficulty.  There are some minor mechanics in there that require you to play in a certain manner, but they add little complexity to the gameplay and in the end you still end up playing the mission in the same manner that you play almost every other boss mission.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Aggh

[Ghobe]

Which is basically just a list of words that add up to the fact that you can beat jackal easily by spraying his leg from a distance.  There's a bit more depth, but Jackal is still incredibly underwhelming.  He just happens to be less underwhelming than the rest of the bosses and is easily incapacitated so bad players don't have to worry about aiming, sustaining damage, using the right skills, using cover etc.etc.

 

In fact, you could almost say that he's a poster child for depth without difficulty.  There are some minor mechanics in there that require you to play in a certain manner, but they add little complexity to the gameplay and in the end you still end up playing the mission in the same manner that you play almost every other boss mission.

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Just about every boss in existence dies by hitting it in the right place. Feel free to list a boss that can't be simplified in the same way. Feel free to find a new way to do it.

[Aggh]

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Just about every boss in existence dies by hitting it in the right place. Feel free to list a boss that can't be simplified in the same way. Feel free to find a new way to do it.

The problem isn't the question of hitting them in the right place.  It's the fact that all the bosses in this game can be approached in the same manner, including jackal.  Sit back and spray.  What the jackal has is a mechanic that lets you incapacitate him and spray without worry.  It's basically a mechanic to let you kill him with less risk, it actually makes him easier than most of the bosses in the game (which is why people like it) but in the end doesn't change the fact that you have to approach him in the same way you do every single other boss in the game.

 

Rather than simply having weak spots taking risk away, it should be the manner in which you approach him that mitigates risk.  It should take strategy (there should be multiple strategies even with the same frames/weapons to defeat each boss), planning (you should have to change your mods and frames for each boss) and skill (aim and reaction time should be important) to defeat a boss.  Not sitting back, occasionally jumping and spraying a particular spot on the boss or comboing/spamming the same skills over and over again and spraying regardless of what's going on.

 

 

Examples with jackal:

• Make people think about what mods they should run.  Have armor piercing mods deal a damage bonus to the legs, but reduce damage to the body.  Have electric damage reduce overall damage, but also have it make the use of shockwaves less frequent.  Have fire damage reduce overall damage dealt, but make the use of weapons less frequent/slower.  Have frost damage noticeably reduce the recharge on shields, but have it resistant to the movement slowing.

 

• Multiple weakspots.  Shooting the main part of the leg keeps the jackal from moving and using its grenades/machine gun, it can still use its shockwave.  Smaller, harder to hit weak spots  incapacitate like it currently does.  This would mean that you could still go for the easy to hit weak spot, but you'll get less out of it.  The harder to hit weak spots would reward aim and concentration (especially if they're on a spot that moves alot).

 

• Shooting out the front legs completely immobilizes the jackal, shooting out the back legs (which should have a lot less HP) knocks it down, but it can still move a bit and use its abilities.  This builds further onto the complexity of shooting out the legs.  The more effort you put in, the better rewards you get out of it, while going the easier route will still reward you too.

   

• Shooting out multiple legs should incapacitate it for longer.  This would encourage strategies other than having your team focus on a single leg and makes aim important.  Having a team where multiple players can aim well enough to take out the small weak spots will allow for faster, longer incapacitation, while there would still be plenty of viable approaches for varying team skill levels.

   

• The Jackal should use it's grenades more often.  There is generally very little risk of taking damage from it aside from this ability or if you stand in front of it and let it shoot you.  Rather than have them instantly explode, it'd be better if they had a bit of fuse in order to allow players to react.

   

• Have the jackal actually traverse the map instead of slowly jitter around the map.  Players rarely have to worry about where they are or how they're moving when playing bosses, which simplifies boss fights too much.

   

• Give it more complex animations.  Have it lean in when it shoots, make it a changing target so players can't just comfortably stand and spam away while barely moving their crosshair.

   

• Give it attack sequences and telegraphs so that players can predict the likelihood of its more powerful attacks.  This allows you to justify using them more often and helps players to avoid getting gibbed.  It's a good example of how added depth can allow for added difficulty. Examples: Have an arming sequence (some kind of loading noise or something) for the grenades/missiles and use them more often.  Have it use its shockwaves in patterns, if does it three times in a row, have it take a break from using it for a while.  If it only does it once, have it be more likely to use it again etc. etc.

   

   

Edited April 19, 2013 by Aggh

[ValhaHazred]

If they couldn't even properly investigate the technology, how could they duplicate Orokin tech? 

I picture them digging up peices of manufacturing equipment and although they can turn it on, they don't know the hows and whys of Orokin tech. They can build things just fine, but they have ritualized practices for using the equipment.

 

Basically they are a Cargo Cult with access to a nanotech factory and use vocal passwords/commands as spells.

[SpartanChief1170]

He should update the original post then. I was using that as my source.

it'd kind of be hard to update the original post with every response in this thread especially out of context. 

[Toko]

it'd kind of be hard to update the original post with every response in this thread especially out of context. 

 

Well my original point stands then.

[Aizeol]

Well my original point stands then.

 

That there are some people that find the game too difficult?

 

I did address that.  If you create depth and a learning curve that guides a player through the mechanics it will allow them to grow and explore.  This way, by the time the player is in the late-game content, they have already been introduced to the mechanics and "taught" how to use them.

 

Currently, that isn't in warframe, and it comes pretty naturally with depth that is woven in, but not forced.

 

Do you disagree with my entire concept or do you have a point outside of just nit-picking?

[Aizeol]

Imo they should allow them to occasionally drop a roller too.  This could be used as an excuse to turn down the roller spawns and at the same time give people more control over how many rollers they have to deal with.

 

This actually sounds like an idea that could work.  Since they're drones, they should have some kind of controller right?  It could be a robot, or a destructible terminal, or possibly an actually enemy like Aggh suggested.

 

This way, it would be more manageable and you could somewhat control the spawn rate of rollers in an engagement.

[neKroMancer]

Players like jackal because they can just spray into the legs and make the boss easier to deal with.

 

They could have found similar or dated/prototype orokin tech

 

I like the Jackal because it represents what a good bossfight could be based on. Multiphase battle. The Jackal itself is underwhelming, it's the concept that's good.