Fix The Vectis...nay Fix All Snipers

[Semshol]

Jacate needs to quit writing entire books just to say that snipers don't fit well into a fast-paced game like Warframe. It's missing the point. Particularly when the guy he's talking isn't talking about achieving role parity between snipers and bows and has said as much.

 

It's reasonable to point out that snipers should have consistent damage (100% crit rate) to offset the time spent scoping and aiming them.

It's also reasonable to ask that they have some kind of upside to offset their inferior handling compared to all other weapons (e.g. more innate punchthrough).

 

These are obvious problems outside of all the usual taglines about "Warframe is a fast-paced game rabble rabble rabble."

Well as I mentioned to him, good snipers can move and shoot and we don't spend time sniping at all. Just tap right-click, click on head, move on to next crowd of targets. It's that simple.

[Niryco]

Jacate needs to quit writing entire books just to say that snipers don't fit well into a fast-paced game like Warframe. It's missing the point. Particularly when the guy he's talking isn't talking about achieving role parity between snipers and bows and has said as much.

 

It's reasonable to point out that snipers should have consistent damage (100% crit rate) to offset the time spent scoping and aiming them.

It's also reasonable to ask that they have some kind of upside to offset their inferior handling compared to all other weapons (e.g. more innate punchthrough).

 

These are obvious problems outside of all the usual taglines about "Warframe is a fast-paced game rabble rabble rabble."

Consistent damage won't change anything because you can already kill level 80 mobs consistently without headshots, what more consistency is there at all? Also more innate punch through is the only justifiable increase but which would not make it a novelty or a differentiation to other weapons simply because all weapons can have punch through with shred.

 

 

I think you do not have enough experience with proper sniping.

 

Let me tell you how I came to the conclusion I have:

 

I started my journey of headshotting with the Latron Prime, still one of my favourite weapons to date.

 

I then got the Latron Wraith which is now better than the prime.

 

I then moved on to the Vectis, thinking it would be an upgrade since it has the same crit rate as the Wraith, but a trade-off in fire-rate, which I never needed.

 

I was awed by the scope. it was so effective for me that sniping became enjoyable and by the way, most good snipers just go in and out of their scope. We don't stay in scope mode, it's a technique called sighting and we move around as much as bow users. If not, we use Nyx and have everyone stand still for a little bit.

 

In any case, I discovered that the crit rate of the Latron wraith is not enough when applied to the Vectis. Instead, it need a crit rate just a step above the Soma in order to have very reliable crits on every shot.

 

Next to compensate for fire-rate versus level 70+ mobs, which is where it SHOULD be shining. The innate punch-through is necessary because that allows it to kill the heavy AND thin the crowd. Most good Vectis snipers will fire a round every second and shred through enemy hordes, this is simply what we do. Innate punch-through will make us viable against level 70+ hordes which is what we want and which is what we are getting with bows at the moment.

 

If these statistical changes are applied to the Vectis, just group up with me in game and I'll show you how I outshoot a bow user. Snipers have the same role as the bow to be perfectly frank. High damage designed to take out a big target, the only question is whether or not DE can allow snipers to have that role by balancing their stats. Their firing mechanics can be gotten around in other ways once you have crit rate boost + innate punch-through.

 

We don't want red-crits or even perfect crits. We just want 35% and innate, that's all I need to wreck stuff with a minimal margin of error.

if you all have been getting what i have been saying, it is simply your stats changes won't reflect anything unless it is a mechanical change if you want your snipers to be useful even in end-game, all the one hit ko's punch throughs, even beating bow users is easy, available and achieveable even now, especially with the lanka.

 

Getting 300 to 500 kills in T4 with a lanka or vectis is so common whilst everyone is around 200, the stats change you are suggesting would hardly affect those numbers because i am already overkilling all mobs anyways and anyhow. So What is the point if i am already having most kills, punch through is just a breeze and that sniping can be done close and far, well the only problem is that only one sniper in-game can tackle cluster behaviour in a horizontal fashion and that at close range i don't even use a zoom at all.

 

That is the only thing stopping me from matching up to the kills my other weapons that I roughly 700 to 800 kills(boltor/braton prime/flux rifle) per match. If most of warframe's combat doesn't even require me to scope in to kill 10 enemies in a single shot with the lanka, but only at most 3 with a vectis, your stats change won't reflect a thing. The vectis will never be able to kill 10 enemies unless it can proc electric or have an AOE hit and that is it. I am already dealing more than 2,000 per normal hit for vectis, 5,000 per normal hit in lanka, 11,000 crit with vectis and 20,000 crit with lanka, what mobs can survive even 2,000? My Marelok is dealing roughly 1,400 and even on T4 it is a single shot kill with a head shot up to 20 mins.

 

There isn't a point at all even if you get more consistent 11,000 crits. The more appropriate change is being able to dish out 2,000 to more than just enemies in a straight line, but in all directions.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Jacate

[Eric1738]

give me 1000 base damage but no crit lanka pls. a lot of energy weapons have low crit chance, so follow the concept DE. 

[Semshol]

There isn't a point at all even if you get more consistent 11,000 crits. The more appropriate change is being able to dish out 2,000 to more than just enemies in a straight line, but in all directions.

 

That is a separate issue. More than a straight line is beyond the scope of what is being suggested here. It would not equalize snipers with bows, it would make it greater than bows, which is not the objective.

 

Also mobs get survivey REALLY quickly if you go beyond 30 waves on a defense mission. Anyone who does less probably isn't playing seriously.

 

I am only taking into account serious gameplay of 40 - 60 mins or more on survival and that is where I am having issues. We don't need AoE, there are other players for that, we need the more consistent crit rate and innate punch-through so we can artificially add base damage by saving one of the precious mod spaces we need.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[PlayGooYa]

Consistent damage won't change anything because you can already kill level 80 mobs consistently without headshots, what more consistency is there at all? Also more innate punch through is the only justifiable increase but which would not make it a novelty or a differentiation to other weapons simply because all weapons can have punch through with shred.

 

Just stop talking. Your logic is the worst and you say too little for so much talk.

 

Your first statement is outright and flatly false. You can fail to crit. You can fail to roll your multishot. You can also fail to headshot.

Stability matters because the reward for playing this optional sniper minigame should be seeing your enemy drop.

And unless I'm sorely mistaken, crits get double the benefit from a headshot over non-crits. So there's also the headshot buff with one tweak.

 

60%-70% crit rate on the Vectis makes me wince. Why would I use this over the Sybaris or a Dread? I wouldn't.

 

Your second statement is irrelevant. Who said anything about uniqueness? And besides, who is the ultimate arbiter of that? You?

Edited September 4, 2014 by PlayGooYa

[Niryco]

Just stop talking. Your logic is the worst.

 

Your first statement is outright and flatly false. You can fail to crit. You can fail to roll your multishot. You can also fail to headshot.

Stability matters because the reward for playing this optional sniper minigame should be seeing your enemy drop.

 

Your second statement is irrelevant. Who said anything about uniqueness? And besides, who is the ultimate arbiter of that? You?

 

And even if we grant that snipers have inferior handling, the numbers are still a problem and they need to be fixed.

I also debate even the first part, because a lot can be fixed by fixing reloads and so forth.

How does an additional 9,000 damage gain from a single shot going to matter in any or most matches played, enemies are still going to be kill in a single shot from 2,000 damage that is deal with a sniper and that is a truth and it is always consistently at 2,000 damage no matter what you say. Therefore the additional 9000 damage would not add to anything, getting even more 11,000 damages would not amount to anything unless i am fighting level 100 or 80 mobs and another fact is that no random, recruit groups or any party fight mobs that high. You only do when you play with friends which otherwise also rarely want to survive till that long. There is also no point surviving that long in general, most people know that even farming wise it is inefficient. You only survive that long for fun or prove a point and nothing else.

 

The second statement wasn't even directed at you and i wasn't even saying anything about uniqueness. If you didn't even read what OP said

The Vectis completely loses out to bows and the advantage of hit-scan being better for head-shots doesn't do much to help its case. For weapons that are in the same class..there really shouldn't be such a gap.

 

So here, this is what is needed to fix the Vectis, I have forma'd and potato'd one, so this is being said after a comparison to Paris Prime similarly forma'd and potato'd.

 

Vectis:

- Increase base crit rate to 35% base

- Innate punch-through of 2m

 

With just those two fixes, the Vectis will become viable and snipers will finally have their day. In fact JUST the punch-through fix alone would be enough.

I am basing the whole argument around this stance, the whole reducing the bow gap thing and making it crit more consistently to be viable. I didn't even say i was the ultimate arbiter, i am simply saying with the damage examples is getting consistent damage would not change the fact mobs are already dead anyways and that there is no way to spread damage in all directions but a straight line. All weapons can already do that so the punch through and therefore it becomes a moot point or AOE technique because it doesn't stand out from all other weapons, every single weapon can have it, what else is there to get?

 

Changes in numbers will never reflect anything to make snipers viable, reload speed i agree is actually something that could matter, but damage numbers or even consistent crits will never do much because even with the last sniper iteration the increase DPS did not change any outcome at all, it just improved the AOE capabilities of snipers in general.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Jacate

[taiiat]

Sniper Rifles could have their Damage multiplied tenfold, they'd still be outclassed by every other Weapon Type in the game because:

 

they have nothing to bring to the table other than pure Damage. and once that pure Damage stops oneshotting Enemies, they're completely useless.

 

they NEED to bring other things to the table other than raw Damage. anything else. something else. but more than nothing else.

[Semshol]

I am basing the whole argument around this stance. I didn't even say i was the ultimate arbiter, i am simply saying with the damage examples is getting consistent damage would not change the fact mobs are already dead anyways and that there is no way to spread damage in all directions but a straight line. All weapons can already do that so the punch through and therefore it becomes a moot point or AOE technique because it doesn't stand out from all other weapons, every single weapon can have it, what else is there to get?

 

Changes in numbers will never reflect anything to make snipers viable, reload speed i agree is actually something that could matter, but damage numbers or even consistent crits will never do much because even with the last sniper iteration the increase DPS did not change any outcome at all, it just improved the AOE capabilities of snipers in general.

 

I understand that absolutely, however I am saying as well, from my own perspective, that everyone who is a sniper, doesn't NEED the damage in all directions.

 

We only need the base crit to hit 35% and the innate punch-through in order for it to feel, I guess, weighty, just like a single shot from a bow. That alone will satisfy us because we can get all the AoE that we want. Lining up targets is easy so we focus on a single vector punch-through which is why I suggested the changes I did.

 

More consistent crits allows us to be more competitive around lvl 50+ mobs and that would make sniper viable to players like me who like snipers but can't stand the inconsistency that they experience + no innate punch-through which wastes a mod-slot, a chore that the bows don't have to go through.

[PlayGooYa]

How does an additional 9,000 damage gain from a single shot going to matter in any or most matches played, enemies are still going to be kill in a single shot from 2,000 damage that is deal with a sniper and that is a truth and it is always consistently at 2,000 damage no matter what you say. Therefore the additional 9000 damage would not add to anything, getting even more 11,000 damages would not amount to anything unless i am fighting level 100 or 80 mobs and another fact is that no random, recruit groups or any party fight mobs that high. You only do when you play with friends which otherwise also rarely want to survive till that long. There is also no point surviving that long in general, most people know that even farming wise it is inefficient. You only survive that long for fun or prove a point and nothing else.

 

You still don't get that I don't want a damage buff. I want a consistency buff. It's entirely possible to not crit.

 

Nobody wants an extra 11k damage to overkill a target anyway, as I fully expect a drop in crit multi or base damage to compensate for higher sustained dps that the weapon would otherwise get. This is understood implicitly.

 

Despite all your rabble about Endless Defense, you don't need to get anywhere near that point if you're not using a fully-modded Vectis to fail to one-shot.

Edited September 4, 2014 by PlayGooYa

[Semshol]

Sniper Rifles could have their Damage multiplied tenfold, they'd still be outclassed by every other Weapon Type in the game because:

 

they have nothing to bring to the table other than pure Damage. and once that pure Damage stops oneshotting Enemies, they're completely useless.

 

they NEED to bring other things to the table other than raw Damage. anything else. something else. but more than nothing else.

 

They already bring a lot of other things to the table. With the Vectis, the scope is VERY smooth to aim and the fact that it is hit-scan is already incredible. Once they have consistent crits, I can guarantee I can outshoot most other weapons. People forget that the functionality of the sniper is not to clear crowds of level 15+ mobs. It's to keep the team cool when mobs are level 70+ and they can barely kill the grunts. We take out the heavies and give some support fire with punch-through that is our role. Not to top kills, not to top damage. We understand our role.

 

We just want the consistency to achieve it.

[Niryco]

I understand that absolutely, however I am saying as well, from my own perspective, that everyone who is a sniper, doesn't NEED the damage in all directions.

 

We only need the base crit to hit 35% and the innate punch-through in order for it to feel, I guess, weighty, just like a single shot from a bow. That alone will satisfy us because we can get all the AoE that we want. Lining up targets is easy so we focus on a single vector punch-through which is why I suggested the changes I did.

 

More consistent crits allows us to be more competitive around lvl 50+ mobs and that would make sniper viable to players like me who like snipers but can't stand the inconsistency that they experience + no innate punch-through which wastes a mod-slot, a chore that the bows don't have to go through.

Well as i said, level 50 mobs still get down from a single shot even without consistent crits, how would it therefore make it competitive?

 

You still don't get that I don't want a damage buff. I want a consistency buff. It's entirely possible to not crit.

Despite all your rabble about Endless Defense, you don't need to get anywhere near that point if you're not using a fully-modded Vectis to fail to one-shot.

Sorry that i am using a fully modded vectis, but the question is what does the consistency buff even going to produce at all? It is the chance of higher damage damage, it is more 11,000 damage, i never said that you would get a freaking damage buff i said you would get more damage out of the consistency, there is nothing else you can gain but the frequency of yellow numbers and say 4.4x of your damage.

 

What else can you gain with consistency? you are still going to down your enemies in a single shot with your normal damage to the body or even head, even a non modded vectis can deal about 500 to 1000 per headshot, that is roughly enough to oneshot most enemies even in T3 survival, providing a context is to help strengthen my argument because in no situation does consistent crits generate any more benefits but larger damage values and those that are yellow in colour. The consistency also won't matter because mobs are generally dead by then in a single shot, what else can you ask for but a single death shot?

 

There was never a talk about getting damage buffs, it is just consistent crits is only reflected by damage gains which elsewhere has no other importance within the game.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Jacate

[Semshol]

Well as i said, level 50 mobs still get down from a single shot even without consistent crits, how would it therefore make it competitive?

 

Not the heavies, tried and tested in T4 defense.

 

The inconsistency means they're insta-dead only 75% of the time, which is not enough. It has to be 90 or so at the very least.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[Niryco]

Not the heavies, tried and tested in T4 defense.

 

The inconsistency means they're insta-dead only 75% of the time, which is not enough. It has to be 90 or so at least.

Unless your weapons are not fully modded, they will be dead in a single shot.

[Semshol]

Unless your weapons are not fully modded, they will be dead in a single shot.

 

Fully modded:

 

Serration - Split - Point - Stormbringer

Shred - Charged - Infected Clip - Vital Sense

 

This is the no deviation aim build. Heavy Cal causes spread which really affects head-shotting at range, which is where the sniper is supposed to be used at.

 

Fully modded, didn't one shot a heavy when I failed to crit. Therefore, I need to know what build you're using to test, because this is the standardized build with punch-through and no deviation.

 

All mods maxed and don't suggest using Primed Chamber, there isn't one available in market so it's not affordable.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[taiiat]

They already bring a lot of other things to the table.

no they don't. they bring Damage.

 

and only Damage.

nothing else.

at all. 

nothing. 

not a single thing.

 

and that's why they always fail to be really useful. Bows have the advantage of Corpse Cannons, and that gives them ways to deal collateral Damage, and that's... a little better.

 

but both Sniper Rifles and Bows only really bring Damage to the table. without anything else, if it doesn't kill what you're shooting at with one shot, and always do that, it's completely outclassed by anything else.

 

 

Sniper Rifles and Bow can bring unique effects to the table like other Weapons do. they'd then have a wide variety of uses.

but they don't.

 

 

a 35% Crit Chance for most Sniper Rifles would be interesting though, as that exact number would let Sniper Rifles get ~104% Crit Chance with Point Strike and Critical Delay.

that exact number allows supporting of alterior Playstyles.

so that's a good start. supporting more Playstyles is always fantastic.

 

 

will still need unique facets to bring to the table though. that's what Sniper Rifles and Bows really need, things to back up their Damage. things that you can rely on when you inevitably don't kill your target with one shot due to infinitely Scaling Enemies.

[Niryco]

Fully modded:

 

Serration - Split - Point - Stormbringer

Shred - Charged - Infected Clip - Vital Sense

 

This is the no deviation aim build. Heavy Cal causes spread which really affects head-shotting at range, which is where the sniper is supposed to be used at.

 

Fully modded, didn't one shot a heavy when I failed to crit. Therefore, I need to know what build you're using to test, because this is the standardized build with punch-through and no deviation.

 

All mods maxed and don't suggest using Primed Chamber, there isn't one available in market so it's not affordable.

Serration, split, point, shred(metal auger), Malignant force,infected clip, stormbringer and vital sense. You can swap out malignant force for hammershot, more corrosive procs reduces damage resistance with increased crit damage.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Jacate

[Semshol]

Serration, split, point, shred, Malignant force,infected clip and vital sense. You can swap out malignant force for hammershot, more corrosive procs reduces damage resistance with increased crit damage.

 

Charged actually adds more raw damage I think, but your build is close to mine, but I can tell you, the heavy did not drop at level 50 in T4. So I'd say we still have a problem. [was a headshot but no crit]

 

 

-snip-

 

I understand what you are saying, but at the moment...they can't even bring damage to the table which is the problem we are experiencing. The inconsistency in damage means that the one area they are SUPPOSED to be good at...they are failing.

 

We can look at expanding the range after first fixing the damage inconsistency, THAT is my current problemo.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[OnnaJReverT]

could we stop the argument "do snipers even have a place in warframe?" already? there are people who find them to be worth using, that should be all the confirmation needed

 

that said, the argument that snipers bring only damage to the table: agreed 100%, however they potentially do it better than most anything else, in terms of burst

the vectis is potentially able to oneshot to an extremely high level, if it crits, headshots and multishots all at once the potential damage is ridiculous: perfectly suited to take out heavies in high-level content at long-ish range, which is the support-role a sniper should fill

but if 2 out of 3 have a RNG-based chance to happen or not happen, that makes a *insert percentage here* of your shots de-facto useless, and that unreliability is all that hinders sniperrifles in their current state

 

TL;DR: snipers have the damage-potential, but its unreliable due to crit- & multishot-RNG, they need a way to achieve 100% in both

Edited September 4, 2014 by OnnaJReverT

[Semshol]

could we stop the argument "do snipers even have a place in warframe?" already? there are people who find them to be worth using, that should be all the confirmation needed

 

that said, the argument that snipers bring only damage to the table: agreed 100%, however they potentially do it better than most anything else, in terms of burst

the vectis is potentially able to oneshot to an extremely high level, if it crits, headshots and multishots all at once the potential damage is ridiculous: perfectly suited to take out heavies in high-level content at long-ish range, which is the support-role a sniper should fill

but if 2 out of 3 have a RNG-based chance to happen or not happen, that makes a *insert percentage here* of your shots de-facto useless, and that unreliability is all that hinders sniperrifles in their current state

 

TL;DR: snipers have the damage-potential, but its unreliable due to crit- & multishot-RNG, they need a way to achieve 100% in both

 

The multi-shot RNG is not actually that horrible, which is why I'm trying not to focus on it, but when it comes to the crits, yeah that's the problem. I think everyone sort of understands that now.

 

What I am really hoping for is just that nice little base jump and innate punchthrough. But the base jump alone is enough or the innate punch-through alone is enough as either will allow for the addition of mods that close the gap.

[dadaddadada]

The perfect Vectis stats imo:

 

Physical damage 190

Crit chance: 0%

Crit multiplier: 250%

Guaranteed critical on headshots.

 

Your statistical Crit chance is given by how good you are as a sniper. It doesn't get much more epic than that.

 

Btw split chamber should go up to 100% by default.

 

This should solve most of the concerns about damage. innate punch through is meh simply because you can equip metal auger or shred. Oh, and because with these stats you don't have to equip Point Strike, you have one free mod slot for anything you want (es. punch-through mods, fast hands... omg Fast Hands is epic if you "R" rush reloads).

[Semshol]

R rush doesn't need fast-hands, the reload is short enough, but where would I have to shoot to get 100% crit? always the head? That's not fair because the bow can hit the body and still do inordinate amounts of damage, the head is a wrecking ball bonus. So we attribute crit rates to body parts? I'd say no again because that would slow the pace of the game, due to over-aiming to get best DPS.

 

35% base is ideal, that is the best fix.

 

Also the lower damage than bows is a no-no. The current damage is fine.

 

Edit: I should probably note, most people can't even aim, I don't want the sniper pool to grow even smaller so it wouldn't be a fix, just a horrid idea.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[invisible131]

I love my venka, but in warframe snipers will never be good for normal missions ( I'd say mostly conclave, boss fights or in the darksector's conflicts ) since this is a fast paced game and snipers aren't really that fast.

[OnnaJReverT]

^

i dare say a dead enemy (or more with metal auger) per 0.85 seconds is fast enough

[Semshol]

I love my venka, but in warframe snipers will never be good for normal missions ( I'd say mostly conclave, boss fights or in the darksector's conflicts ) since this is a fast paced game and snipers aren't really that fast.

 

The only way to be faster is to use a DMR. i.e. Latron Wraith or Prime. Vectis can still handle exterminates very easily, it's not like you encounter a horde. Inbetween the time you aim, you can reload lol.

[invisible131]

The only way to be faster is to use a DMR. i.e. Latron Wraith or Prime. Vectis can still handle exterminates very easily, it's not like you encounter a horde. Inbetween the time you aim, you can reload lol.

well I tryed my old vectis before the buff on a long t3 survival and when there are a lot of enemies u really need to aim only at the priority targets while the rets of teh squad kills teh rest, but if u are alone and don't have a secondary like brakk...