Playing Nekros Is A Punishment (Proposed Rework)

[Vance.Stubbs]

Whenever I am in party for a long Defense or Survival run and someone says that we need a Nekros, I hope that won't be me. Don't get me wrong -- I love Nekromanser-themed stuff in the games, and Nekros looks amazing (probably the most beautiful Warframe after Ember Prime), however his powers are so limited besides endlessly spamming 3 button, it makes me sad.

 

Here is a quick look at his powers: 

 

1) Soul Punch

 

Looks cool, sounds cool, deals limited damage and ragdolls the enemies behind the target. Completely outclassed by better CQ abilites like Sonic Boom or Rhino Charge. Its damage also suffer a lot since you need max range and effiency build for Desecrate.

 

Proposal: 

 

Enemies that are hit with the soul projectile are "cursed" for a short amount of time (5 seconds, improved by duration). If a cursed enemy dies, it will ressurect as a Shadow Of The Dead clone. You can have as much clones as you want, providing you can position yourself to hit as many enemies with a Soul Punch as possible. 

 

2) Terrify.

 

75 power, medium radius, very long cast time, target limit, armor reduction. In my opinion it is completely outclassed by Radial Blind (50 power, quick cast time, no target limit, more reliable stun) and other CC stills.

 

Proposal:

 

1. Remove target limit, quicken the cast time (at least for half) and reduce energy cost to 60-65. 

 

OR

 

2. Bring back old Scott's idea of Terror Totem: places a totem on the ground. Enemies near the Totem are slowed, less accurate, have their armor reduced and also have a small chance to be afraid and run away or cripple in fear. Energy cost is 75-85. 

 

3) Desecrate

 

Perfectly fine and doesn't need a single change :)

 

4) Shadows of The Dead

 

Everyone knows how underperforming this ultimate is and how it is completely overclassed by 75 power Chaos.

 

Proposal:

 

1. Fix the AI. SoTD AI is still bad, sometimes clones are either shooting at the walls, sit in cover for eve or just run in circules. This should be fixed.

2. Make clones "harvest" their enemies. Whenever a clone kills an enemy, it has its health and duration restored.

3. When a clone dies, it should explode, dealing minor corrosive damage but with guaranteed proc (imagine how nano-bots shred enemies armor before beind disassembeled).

4. Allow it to recast whenever you want (kills old clones in proccess).

 

 

In my opinion, these changes will make Nekros a powerfull support with a true necromancer powers: while lacking direct damage abilites. Nekros is capable of debuffing his enemies while being supported by a large army of his minions.

 

I really hope that Nekros rework is coming soon and DE will look into my ideas!

Edited September 7, 2014 by Vance.Stubbs

[zerogear5]

sotd should have dumb AI they are basically dead husks. What they need is a ton more health to act like true meat shields.

[Vance.Stubbs]

sotd should have dumb AI they are basically dead husks. What they need is a ton more health to act like true meat shields.

 

I agree, however issues like shooting walls and running in circles should go.

[Frostosti]

a nekros that starts killing and using more abilities is usually not even wanted , since he could generate more loot than he is doing now. biggest advantage is that you can bring all level 1 weapons into long survivals. Personally I currently don't have a problem with him.

Besides, for almost all frames there is only one or maybe two abilities worth using.

[mistopportunity]

I think you just like desecrate the most. I noticed you said Soul Punch needs more damage because your builds specialize in range and efficiency and that it brings the damage down to way to low. Then maybe not use and range and efficiency build? Maybe any frame ability mods will be useful for you :D

[Cleesus]

Descrate needs to be an aura imo

[Desauron]

1. Soul Punch rename to Soul Targeting

Deal dmg, and if the target dies it will give you hp and ressurect as your shadow.

 

2. Terrify

 

Have a 20% chance that the target will commit suicide because of fear.

3. Desecrate

Corpses will explode, dealing dmg and gives aditional loot in the proces.

 

4. Shadow of the dead

Make the ability to be linked to hp, armor, shield, and power dmg.

This way shadows will deal more dmg and have better status (hp, armor, shields).

[Vance.Stubbs]

I think you just like desecrate the most. I noticed you said Soul Punch needs more damage because your builds specialize in range and efficiency and that it brings the damage down to way to low. Then maybe not use and range and efficiency build? Maybe any frame ability mods will be useful for you :D

 

I didn't say that Soul Punch needs more damage. In fact, I said the opposite: Nekros doesn't need any offensive power, since we had plenty of damage dealing Warframes. Nekros needs to be a powerful debuffer and minion spawner, just like the Necromancery theme suggests.

 

Also I can't go for anything else but range and efficiency build since Desecrate is the only power worth using.

[Brannyx]

it  is only for desecrate :C, i dont use any other ability! , i agree with u

[msterforks]

If Nekros is the lord of the dead, he should feed off the souls of the recently deceased. His 4 should be a time based ability that gives him extra damage/health/damage resistance/other buffs per kill. He's the lord of the dead. Two bullets should not be able to take him down.

[Azawarau]

a nekros that starts killing and using more abilities is usually not even wanted , since he could generate more loot than he is doing now. biggest advantage is that you can bring all level 1 weapons into long survivals. Personally I currently don't have a problem with him.

Besides, for almost all frames there is only one or maybe two abilities worth using.

Not everyone is happy with him being just a graverobber

[Faulcun]

a nekros that starts killing and using more abilities is usually not even wanted , since he could generate more loot than he is doing now.

 

Those are the scrubs talking. Scrubs are scrubs m'kay?

 

All of his abilities are amazingly useful. The ability to ragdoll a level 100 heavy gunner is far more useful than the damage output from soul punch. Terrify with stretch is amazing for reviving teammates or moving from point A to point B without having to deal with an unexpected blockade of enemies. shadows of the dead make for a great distraction for reviving teammates as well.... not for damage purposes.

 

Its the utility side that make him so much more viable at high level than other frames, while still serving a purpose, and can still run a pure desecrate build on top of that, leaving off only one power.

[Azawarau]

Those are the scrubs talking. Scrubs are scrubs m'kay?

 

All of his abilities are amazingly useful. The ability to ragdoll a level 100 heavy gunner is far more useful than the damage output from soul punch. Terrify with stretch is amazing for reviving teammates or moving from point A to point B without having to deal with an unexpected blockade of enemies. shadows of the dead make for a great distraction for reviving teammates as well.... not for damage purposes.

 

Its the utility side that make him so much more viable at high level than other frames, while still serving a purpose, and can still run a pure desecrate build on top of that, leaving off only one power.

His utilities are mediocre a best

 

And hes affected by the every frame does it better issue

 

Nyxs mind control and chaos beat Nekros 1-2 and 4 in use and utility

 

Leaving him with just desecrate

[Rienz]

People need to realize that every frame is suited for different purposes. Yes Frame X does Y better than Nekros but Nekros has Z ability that does something completely different that provides a different utility than Frame W.

 

A Desecrate only built Nekros is one of the most boring and useless frame setups. Yet some argue that thats how he should be played. Well clearly many haven't been reviving Rhinos and Valkyr's as a QT/Rage Nekros with Terrify during T4 Survival 30+ mins.

 

Personally I enjoy my Nekros built for Terrify and Desecrate for long runs and Shadow of the Dead for shorter ones. Utility mixed with his most beneficial team skill that gives health, energy, ammo and the occasional rare mod drop that everyone would appreciate.

 

The only issue I find is that the damn Desecrate spamming can really hurt my fingers after long 30+ min runs =(

 

Maybe make it toggle-able or something. =/

[Faulcun]

There has to be a give and take...  What are you proposing? repeat abilities for all the frames? Of course some frames are going to do some things better than others. Thats where skill is involved in learning the differences and making them work. The argument of "this frame does it better, therefore all other abilities should be on the same level" is silly. If thats the case, then why do we need different frames to begin with? Why not just one frame where 1, 2, 3, and 4 abilities just blow up the planet and we auto win ever time?

[RexRgisIocus]

Nekros only needs Terrify to not be limited in targets. People would see how good he is at cc if they actually stopped building him just for Desecrate. Oh right its inconceivable to think that he has other abilities besides Desecrate...

[Azawarau]

People need to realize that every frame is suited for different purposes. Yes Frame X does Y better than Nekros but Nekros has Z ability that does something completely different that provides a different utility than Frame W.

 

A Desecrate only built Nekros is one of the most boring and useless frame setups. Yet some argue that thats how he should be played. Well clearly many haven't been reviving Rhinos and Valkyr's as a QT/Rage Nekros with Terrify during T4 Survival 30+ mins.

 

Personally I enjoy my Nekros built for Terrify and Desecrate for long runs and Shadow of the Dead for shorter ones. Utility mixed with his most beneficial team skill that gives health, energy, ammo and the occasional rare mod drop that everyone would appreciate.

 

The only issue I find is that the damn Desecrate spamming can really hurt my fingers after long 30+ min runs =(

 

Maybe make it toggle-able or something. =/

The issue is hes got nothing but desecrate and it interferes with his other abilities

 

Max energy efficiency means less duration on SOTD and max range means less power STR = less souls per summon

 

Chaos does it better without interfering with anything except psychic bolts

 

It increases the range of terrify but lowers the amount of enemies affected and the DR

 

You can weaken your desecrate efficiency for other skills but thatll kill your ability to use the same power 1400 tiems efficiently in a match

 

And any frame can QT tank to save lives

 

Of all Desecrate nekros is on a far low tier for this strategy

[Rienz]

The issue is hes got nothing but desecrate and it interferes with his other abilities

 

Max energy efficiency means less duration on SOTD and max range means less power STR = less souls per summon

 

Chaos does it better without interfering with anything except psychic bolts

 

It increases the range of terrify but lowers the amount of enemies affected and the DR

 

You can weaken your desecrate efficiency for other skills but thatll kill your ability to use the same power 1400 tiems efficiently in a match

 

And any frame can QT tank to save lives

 

Of all Desecrate nekros is on a far low tier for this strategy

 

See the problem lies with some players wanting to have max everything. I run him with only a stretch mod and its perfectly fine with even a half decently coordinated team.

 

If the game was about having maxed everything and having 0 disadvantages then as others have suggested why bother having multiple frames with multiple abilities. Just have 1 frame, add mods that max everything out and have each power that does whatever you need it to at maximum strength, efficiency, range and duration.

 

Its all about balance. Whether it be balancing a warframes skillset to suit a particular mission. Balancing its mods to improve its strengths and mitigate some weaknesses, or even encouraging players to use different frames to suit different needs.

 

Yes, with max efficiency your SOTD has less duration, but I wonder why duration mods like Constitution and Continuity exist then?

Perhaps they can be used to "balance" a few weaknesses out?

 

Chaos is from a warframe called Nyx. We are talking about Nekros who has abilities that do different things. You might use them for similar situations but still they are inherently different abilities that themselves have strengths and weaknesses.

 

Weaker Terrify is with Overextended. Nekros can easily be built without that mod. And even if you did why not balance the power strength loss with a blind rage? Surely that is the whole point of some mods, especially corrupted ones?

 

Desecrate only really needs max efficiency. Maybe you might decide to run with mods like Natural Talent, Equilibrium, Rage, Flow. Either way its up to the player to decide how best they want to balance out the mods for their frame. None of these mods weaken any other skills of Nekros.

 

Sure any frame can, that was just an example to offset those who mentioned that Nekros is only good for desecrate. And to add to that he is one of only 2 frames that can generate health orbs with a skill. Which incidentally benefits any frame that runs with a QT/Rage build.

 

Perhaps QT Nekros isn't the best, I didn't say he was. But its still an option for him and I've found that it works well with him when hes desecrating and gets hit for a lot of damage he can easily escape to cover or take out the foe without having to get a teammate to come revive you while trying to make sure they don't die as well.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Rienz

[theammostore]

 

 

4) Shadows of The Dead

 

Everyone knows how underperforming this ultimate is and how it is completely overclassed by 75 power Chaos.

 

Proposal:

 

1. Fix the AI. SoTD AI is still bad, sometimes clones are either shooting at the walls, sit in cover for eve or just run in circules. This should be fixed.

2. Make clones "harvest" their enemies. Whenever a clone kills an enemy, it has its health and duration restored.

3. When a clone dies, it should explode, dealing minor corrosive damage but with guaranteed proc (imagine how nano-bots shred enemies armor before beind disassembeled).

4. Allow it to recast whenever you want (kills old clones in proccess).

 

 

In my opinion, these changes will make Nekros a powerfull support with a true necromancer powers: while lacking direct damage abilites. Nekros is capable of debuffing his enemies while being supported by a large army of his minions.

 

I really hope that Nekros rework is coming soon and DE will look into my ideas!

 

sotd should have dumb AI they are basically dead husks. What they need is a ton more health to act like true meat shields.

What if your shadows were affected by your warframe mods? More survivability on Nekros, the more survivable your shadows are. Steel fiber makes them more durable armor-wise, which can be amazing if you snag a high level Bombard or Heavy gunner. Since redirection is practically mandatory, all corpus units you clone will have higher shields. Add in aura's and now you can truly make a good shadows group tailored to how you play.

[Azawarau]

See the problem lies with some players wanting to have max everything. I run him with only a stretch mod and its perfectly fine with even a half decently coordinated team.

 

If the game was about having maxed everything and having 0 disadvantages then as others have suggested why bother having multiple frames with multiple abilities. Just have 1 frame, add mods that max everything out and have each power that does whatever you need it to at maximum strength, efficiency, range and duration.

 

Its all about balance. Whether it be balancing a warframes skillset to suit a particular mission. Balancing its mods to improve its strengths and mitigate some weaknesses, or even encouraging players to use different frames to suit different needs.

 

Yes, with max efficiency your SOTD has less duration, but I wonder why duration mods like Constitution and Continuity exist then?

Perhaps they can be used to "balance" a few weaknesses out?

 

Chaos is from a warframe called Nyx. We are talking about Nekros who has abilities that do different things. You might use them for similar situations but still they are inherently different abilities that themselves have strengths and weaknesses.

 

Weaker Terrify is with Overextended. Nekros can easily be built without that mod. And even if you did why not balance the power strength loss with a blind rage? Surely that is the whole point of some mods, especially corrupted ones?

 

Desecrate only really needs max efficiency. Maybe you might decide to run with mods like Natural Talent, Equilibrium, Rage, Flow. Either way its up to the player to decide how best they want to balance out the mods for their frame. None of these mods weaken any other skills of Nekros.

 

Sure any frame can, that was just an example to offset those who mentioned that Nekros is only good for desecrate. And to add to that he is one of only 2 frames that can generate health orbs with a skill. Which incidentally benefits any frame that runs with a QT/Rage build.

 

Perhaps QT Nekros isn't the best, I didn't say he was. But its still an option for him and I've found that it works well with him when hes desecrating and gets hit for a lot of damage he can easily escape to cover or take out the foe without having to get a teammate to come revive you while trying to make sure they don't die as well.

The issue is SOTD and Terrify arent really useful enough and they interfere with his other powers

 

The comparison to chaos is more than fair. They have similar concepts with slightly differing functions

 

The differences being Nekros has a team that has to be loaded up and recast where nyx turns the actual enemy on themselves

 

SOTD makes annoying visual and physical blocks for ammo where Chaos gives you safer cannon fodder

 

Terrify CCs and makes enemies run away,which is annoying, where Chaos just makes them stand and hit eachother

 

Also theres Narrow minded that clashes between SOTD and Terrify/Desecrate

 

Blind rage that clashes between SOTD/Terrify and desecrate

 

Fleeting expertise that clashes between SOTD and Desecrate with Terrify being on either side depending on preference

 

And overextended that really clashes between SOTD/Terrify and desecrate

 

You cant effectively include all 3 in a max build which is ok except that even with a max build his powers are mediocre and outdone by a single skill from another frame, desecrate aside

[RealPandemonium]

I post this in every nekros thread, but here:

 

Nekros just needs some tweaks to make his skills functional.  I would do it like this:

 

1 - Make the secondary damage (projectile and prokectile explosion) affected by power strength. Make it castable with left hand (while reloading, firing, etc.) Add Viral or Slash proc chance to help Nekros kill heavy units in preparation for casting 4.

 

2 - Allow it to be recastable (more energy = more cc, same as bastille,) add a slow.

 

3 - Speed up the animation, maybe bump range up to 30m or more.

 

4 - Improve shadow AI (bosses and Tenno specters are a precedent for this, though I am aware that AI is a $#*(@ to code in any case) and increase their level by 30% to make them stronger than their competition.  Also allow them to spawn as Eximus.

 

 

These changes would make all of his moves fulfill their purpose while not drastically altering their design or incorporating unprecedented features. 

 

[Faulcun]

The issue is SOTD and Terrify arent really useful enough and they interfere with his other powers

 

The comparison to chaos is more than fair. They have similar concepts with slightly differing functions

 

The differences being Nekros has a team that has to be loaded up and recast where nyx turns the actual enemy on themselves

 

SOTD makes annoying visual and physical blocks for ammo where Chaos gives you safer cannon fodder

 

Terrify CCs and makes enemies run away,which is annoying, where Chaos just makes them stand and hit eachother

 

Also theres Narrow minded that clashes between SOTD and Terrify/Desecrate

 

Blind rage that clashes between SOTD/Terrify and desecrate

 

Fleeting expertise that clashes between SOTD and Desecrate with Terrify being on either side depending on preference

 

And overextended that really clashes between SOTD/Terrify and desecrate

 

You cant effectively include all 3 in a max build which is ok except that even with a max build his powers are mediocre and outdone by a single skill from another frame, desecrate aside

 

i dont get it. are you asking for corrupted mods not to be corrupted?

 

maybe we should just get DE to make rhino with desecrate ability instead.

[RealPandemonium]

i dont get it. are you asking for corrupted mods not to be corrupted?

 

maybe we should just get DE to make rhino with desecrate ability instead.

I wouldn't mind giving up Roar for that. :P

[ePilgrim]

I've been maining him for a week and I LOVE him.

However, he's extremely weak and it's almost essential to have natural talent but you can't because you need the generic mods on your Frame like power strength, flow, vitality, blah blah. There is simply no space left in the current system to actually make a viable Warframe out of this guy.

I don't agree with your suggests though. I think very simple fixes would be plenty:

1: All damage components get increased by power strength and the soul punch needs to be MUCH larger with a explosion radius [so it's actually worth casting instead of just holding down the shoot button]

2: Terrify needs to slow units. I've used this plenty to escape F'd up situations but it can really screw you over in stuff like survival and even exterminate because they legitimately LEG IT. The units effected by the fear take increased damage which is essential but this ability still needs a slow JUST to prevent mobs from scattering to the far ends of the map [plus it's a pain in the @$$ to shoot them because their pathing is so messed up]

3:  Although it functions as a support feature as well as providing benefits like another loot drop it HAS to be said that it's simply more efficient to just keep killing as fast as you can rather then stopping to spam your 3. With this being said, this abilities viability drops off late game severely due to the fact that mobs can 2 hit even the tankiest of Warframes and the health you scatter around the map not only becomes less common because the mobs are a lot harder to kill but the orbs become less valuable. Desecration could provide Nekros with a small amount of shield regeneration coupled with an agro increase (very easy to code and they dont have to add anything new except the shield regen) which would provide a lot more utility to the team AND Nekros. 

4: Minions need more HP and they should also receive a short duration buff from successful desecrations including a small HP regen as well as a movement speed boost to help treat the issues with AI and ineffective mobs [boosting their damage would be a terribad idea]

[Azawarau]

i dont get it. are you asking for corrupted mods not to be corrupted?

 

maybe we should just get DE to make rhino with desecrate ability instead.

No

 

I want his powers to not bunch eacothers panties up so much so he can have a stronger build without losing too heavily in other aspects

 

But thats secondary to the real issue

 

His powers need to actually be worthwhile compared to other frames

 

Hes sub par at the moment

 

I wouldn't mind giving up Roar for that. :P

Youre a monster

Edited September 7, 2014 by Azawarau