[Suggestion] Remove "vote Post Up/down" Feature.

[krisp]

I'd like to know where you've seen that. You're accusing me of something, and i have the right to see the proof.

Yeah like I'm gonna go scrounge through all of your posts to find it. You give yourself too much importance. It was regarding one of Mak_Gohae's posts anyway.

 

You know what else isn't *needed*? This game. No, really. This game isn't needed. Why don't we just delete this game? Do you realize what a stupid argument that is now?

[Renan.Ruivo]

I think thats what everyone's been getting to in one way or another, the rep system doesn't DO anything, and it encourages doing even less.

 

As much as I think a few more sweeping changes are in order, a good short term fix would be the removal of the -1 button.  It's safe, and doesn't open up the can of worms of actually making the rep system do something but leave the trolls unchecked.  It would be nice to give the rep system some power (hide negative posts, send a message to people about how/what they've written) but only if some method to prevent its abuse is added to go with it.

 

It would also be nice to know what effect the Dev Team was looking for when the rep system was implemented.  Were they looking for some kind of self policing forum or simply looking to guage something popularity among readers?

 

Definatly not some kind of self policing. To be quite honest, i don't think they were looking to gauge anything either. They just had the option of implementing a new feature and did it anyway, without realizing the can of worms it had the possibility to turn out to be.

[RAVVSlathotep]

I know that nobody has posted in this thread for a while but it's as good a time as any to give my two cents regarding the whole thing.

 

I've always been baffled by how people totally misunderstand the up/down-vote system. Legitimately, it is a system to remove posts that don't belong in the thread. Example: down-voting a post about culinary in a classic literature thread is the right way to use the system. Up-voting just doesn't make sense.

 

The problem is that people think that it's a way to gauge whoever has the best opinion (haha, as if there's such a thing) and that's how they use it: they down-vote things they disagree with, not what doesn't belong in the thread.

 

Some may argue that vox populi is usually right but we all know that's a lie. Popular opinion is known for being pressured, forced, localized, false and susceptible to perspective even when hiding behind the wall of anonymity that is the internet. Also, the masses are known to be less than bright and cordial when it comes to dealing with different opinions.

 

Another issue is that criticism of any kind is usually smothered by said voice of the people, constructive or not. Non-constructive criticism is indeed useless but it shouldn't be down-voted since it's regarded as flaming; ergo, it should be reported. Constructive criticism, however, is often ignored: enough people decide to down-vote it because they deem it dumb or they simply don't want change. Well, criticism is essential during this stage of development (as in any stage) since this is a glorified late alpha, emphasis on the glorified. Voting systems like this are just counter-productive.

 

The last issue I have with it is that one can simply discredit someone without actually saying why: one can disagree with another and down-vote without engaging in a discussion, which leads nowhere. If Primus doesn't explain why he disagrees with Secundus, Secundus won't either learn and evolve or be able to defend his point and maybe show Primus that he's actually wrong, allowing the latter to learn and evolve himself. This is a problem that's deeply rooted in our society, where we value information over wisdom and knowledge: we know the numbers but we don't know anything behind them. It's the same as saying that "X is right because it's right" and we all know that there aren't self evident truths when it comes to this, or anything.

 

With all this, I simply want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with removing this feature, it serves no purpose, in my opinion.

 

~RAVVS

[Renan.Ruivo]

The last issue I have with it is that one can simply discredit someone without actually saying why: one can disagree with another and down-vote without engaging in a discussion, which leads nowhere. If Primus doesn't explain why he disagrees with Secundus, Secundus won't either learn and evolve or be able to defend his point and maybe show Primus that he's actually wrong, allowing the latter to learn and evolve himself. This is a problem that's deeply rooted in our society, where we value information over wisdom and knowledge: we know the numbers but we don't know anything behind them. It's the same as saying that "X is right because it's right" and we all know that there aren't self evident truths when it comes to this, or anything.

 

With all this, I simply want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with removing this feature, it serves no purpose, in my opinion.

 

~RAVVS

 

Exactly, that issue is mainly the gist of it.

[FrostWolf]

I don't see the purpose of a Up/Down vote when it is anonymous. You like a comment? Post, and explain why. You don't? Well, reply and explain where you disagree. Otherwise. Please move on.

 

There should be a system where you need to add a "Reason" when you vote on a comment. I think a forum is useless if it isn't a place where opinions are voiced and debated. A + or a - doesn't tell me anything outside of "Someone was bored and gave every post in this topic a +1 or -1" Or something like: "Hey, why did you vote for Obama?" "Oh, uh... hmmm. Cuz..." Enlightening.

 

Or, yeah, remove it entirely.

 

Pretty much my stance,

 

It's called a Discussion Forum for a reason.

[SorainRavenshaw]

I have to admit that the point raised, (one of them) about not knowing WHY something garners up or down votes deserves wight. Especially when a poster can't even contact the people who voted it down to ask them. (since it is anon)

I don't know a solution, but I can recognize the problem when put in such terms. Perhaps removing the system is too much, the job of the system (as I understand it) is to bring very popular posts (and very unpopular posts) to the attention of the development team, so that ideas desirable to the player base can be seen and considered. In that sense, the system may or may not function, I don't know the facts. I can say that I hope while we only see the total (plus or minus) the forum moderators can see who voted what on a given post, letting them filter out empty 'troll' accounts being used to manipulate that number we see.

[Aerensiniac]

I have made a topic before realizing that this is an issue: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/35614-voting-system-negative-votes-need-to-go/

 

Yet i think that we dont need to remove the entire voting system, merely the negative part of it.

Having positive votes is a good way to measure community support. The main issue was/is the down votes by people who didnt read/comprehend what has been said.

 

Alternatively, i wouldnt mind the entire voting system to be removed cause it would kill any form of vote trolling, but i believe that removing the negative half suffices.

[Aerensiniac]

I also think that. And I've seen this guy defend someone's stupid statements just because they've been here since closed beta.

 

Hey OP. I know this might come as a new thing to you, but people are allowed to have different opinions than yours. And it's not like anything happens if a post is downvoted.

Wrong. You are implying that a post with -50 votes will get the same attention from the devs as one with +50 votes.

The very notion of the system defies this logic.

 

Furthermore: The voting system is there to measure community support.

A positive vote shows support no matter where it comes from. A friend, a fellow player, guild mate, whatever.

Down votes however can be aimed at the person instead of the post and whats worse: They do not require you to make counter arguments.

This very issue is the reason why a lot of threads are vote killed even though they hold more than valid arguments.

[Renan.Ruivo]

Well, yes. Honestly, i'm OK with keeping up votes as well. Matter of fact, i'm OK with just converting them to the good, old, tested and true "Like" system.

 

The need to explain a downvote for a post that can hold several arguments far outweights the need to explain an upvote. But also honestly, i don't want to be biased. If i was going to ask for one thing to be removed, might as well remove everything alltogether.

 

Still though, Warframe's team is low on human resources as far as i am aware, but more people are being brought to the team as the work with Star Trek The Game comes to an end. And once their backlog (which includes forum work [this forum was part of a player - called Kiwi - contribution, for those who don't know]) is cleared, i'm pretty sure that those issues will be handled.

 

 

There are other issues as well, and i've spoken with DERebecca about them. Currently they know about all of it (if this one is included, i don't know. Didn't ask) but cannot afford the resources to handle them right at this moment. I believe it is our due to bring attention to them, and then just leave it at that point.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Renan.Ruivo

[Calayne]

This has got to be the single-most mature, out-standing and truly constructive forum topic I've so far seen in WARFRAME, though I honestly haven't been around that much. This reads almost like a social experiment. 

 

I've read the topic with great interest, and definitely agree that only having an up-vote button would be great. As social animals, dissonance in harmony would always cause us grief, some much more than others, and some close to none. But the anonymity of the internet really changes the whole thing when it comes to discussions, especially in a place where so many people are around: I think German has amazing points, as do all the posters so far. 

 

As far as things go, the internet gives everyone a screen to protect themselves with while still allowing them to attack others emotionally, and those who will abuse it, will abuse it regardless, as German pointed out earlier. I agree with the OP that it's unnecessary to include a down-vote option, as childish behavior will be punished anyways, while topics with good points are either debated openly or upvoted by those who agree. From my short time here, I've seen quite a few good points presented in the wrong manner and receiving a lot of flak just for that.

 

Honestly, though, I think the current system would work if the down-vote option highlighted areas of a post they didn't agree on, as in parts of a quote, as well as including the name of the voter and his reasons if he chooses to include any. But of course, that's a lot of programming, and may not even be possible. I think, though, that down-votes may still be viable, though only if we assume that people can be held accountable for their actions, as in life. The system, in this way, can rely on the X-Y=Z formula as a more unanimous manner. After all, rather than compare stats of up-and-down votes, the developers can just see whether it's well received or not, or if they get lots of downvotes, whether it was just griefing.

 

Trolling happens much more on the internet precisely because there is the appeal of doing what you want, without the nasty consequences.

[krisp]

Wrong. You are implying that a post with -50 votes will get the same attention from the devs as one with +50 votes.

The very notion of the system defies this logic.

 

Furthermore: The voting system is there to measure community support.

A positive vote shows support no matter where it comes from. A friend, a fellow player, guild mate, whatever.

Down votes however can be aimed at the person instead of the post and whats worse: They do not require you to make counter arguments.

This very issue is the reason why a lot of threads are vote killed even though they hold more than valid arguments.

Yes I'm implying that because that's how I think it is. Devs don't filter through all of the upvotes and go "let's do what this guy with 50 says". Devs don't read a post and change their mind when they see it has downvotes. The best way to get a dev's attention is to PM them with the post in question.

 

And most of "arguments" on forums are personal opinion. "It should be like this, it should be like that". You're implying way too much that you or the people you agree with are the only voice of truth in a world of people set on silencing you for no other reason than irrational personal spite. Which is  laughable.

 

I don't care about the system, the only times I've used it were 3 or 4 times as a joke. I do however very strongly disagree with these conspiracy theories of "downvote brigades" or "people hating on me cuz I'm too cool for them/I tell too much truth". It reeks of "my opinion is special because it's mine".

Edited April 27, 2013 by krisp

[Starberyl]

I know how you feel after creating a thread asking for one or two -provocative- male warframes while having tons of conservatives down vote my post. 

 

Honestly, we should substitute this with a like feature. Though then again, there are tons of posts that are worthy of being down-voted. 

Edited April 27, 2013 by Spoolooni

[Calayne]

Such as downright judgemental, non-constructive, person-attacking comments? I agree, but to be honest, I think most people would recognise such poison the minute they see it, and they should really just get reported. 

 

On the other hand, up-votes are more... Constructive in a way, as is feedback. I suggest a tweak, if possible: Down-votes with reasons for it is definitely a good thing, I feel. You gotta quote to downvote, or at least write up why, and that comment will be linked when you check your "Reputation". 

 

But it IS a forum that's getting humongous. I'd definitely expect rude people to lurk somewhere, unafraid to voice out their more vocal opinions.

[PapaKicks]

I would honestly like to bring downvoting back - but limit the tally to a positive integer.

 

I see some really rude posts with +2 etc now. Irks me.

[Renan.Ruivo]

I would honestly like to bring downvoting back - but limit the tally to a positive integer.

 

I see some really rude posts with +2 etc now. Irks me.

 

In my opinion, should it come back, it should come back without the veil of anonimity. So that we can see who upvoted and who downvoted (IP.Board supports this).

 

For the reasons that were stated above. If someone downvotes me, i have the right to call that person out to learn why.