How Heavy Weapons Should Feel

[Magnar21]

Let's start with some background...

 

This is a short (lol, 12min) clip from Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete. In it, Cloud Strife uses his Fusion Swords in battle the way I think that melee combat in Warframe should feel: Fast, powerful, and deadly. Now I do understand that Warframe isn't built to be a true 3D melee fighter (I don't mean that Warframe isn't 3D, but the map tiles are mostly linear/2D, and you don't usually see enemies crawling on top of buildings, do you?), but I think that there are some thinks that DE can take away from this.

 

I'll try to elaborate on it more later, but I'm too tired to go into it further atm. Just know that if it wasn't for me looking for a game that felt like FFVII: Advent Children, I would have never played Warframe. It was the melee combat (back when melee wasn't viable) that got me started, long before Melee 2.0. Heavy weapons are my favorite type of weapon, but spinning around like a top (I'm glaring at you, Galatine) isn't very satisfying. We need more elaborate combos, with more purpose. Being able to direct the direction of each attack, even it is just vertical/horizontal controls, would go a long way into making it feel more satisfying. Realism is one thing (melee 1.0 Dakra prime), but it has to feel good as well. Having a high-skill way to use a greatsword to great effect would go a long way to making Warframe the top at Melee, not just gun variety.

[--FORMA--]

They should feel heavy.

[The_Improviser]

I guess the galatine's favorite music genre is... heavy metal

Edited September 11, 2014 by The_Improviser

[011100110110000101101101]

I guess the galatine's favorite music genre is... heavy metal

You get a +1.

[billthebetta]

DAMN SON, I'M AT SCHOOL AND DON'T HAVE TIME TO PLAY FFVII

aaahhhhh the nostalgia

 

Anyway, most of the main effect of combos come at the end of the combo chain, and as fast as this game is, we need combo effects to take place closer to the start of the chain than they do currently.

[EdBazokatone]

Let's start with some background...

 

If you mean that they should feel like a shortsword, because that's how that skinny dude is swinging it like (even with one hand at one point... lol, he's even using one in each hand), you might want to check some history background.

[Magnar21]

DAMN SON, I'M AT SCHOOL AND DON'T HAVE TIME TO PLAY FFVII

aaahhhhh the nostalgia

 

Anyway, most of the main effect of combos come at the end of the combo chain, and as fast as this game is, we need combo effects to take place closer to the start of the chain than they do currently.

Perhaps, but that would be a functional/balancing change, while I'm arguing an aesthetics (visual and kinestheticly speaking). Having great dmg/status is on thing, having a game/weapon/toy that you would use even it did 5 dmg per swing is another (hyperbole).

 

 

 

If you mean that they should feel like a shortsword, because that's how that skinny dude is swinging it like (even with one hand at one point... lol, he's even using one in each hand), you might want to check some history background.

 

 

*Cough cough* ummmm, we aren't arguing realism here, but rather style and feel. Power, not size. Tenno wear power suits, and have strength to match. He uses a greatsword with one hand because he can, not because it is a shortsword.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Magnar21

[Calayne]

Perhaps, but that would be a functional/balancing change, while I'm arguing an aesthetics (visual and kinestheticly speaking). Having great dmg/status is on thing, having a game/weapon/toy that you would use even it did 5 dmg per swing is another (hyperbole).

 

 

 

 

 

*Cough cough* ummmm, we aren't arguing realism here, but rather style and feel. Power, not size. Tenno wear power suits, and have strength to match. He uses a greatsword with one hand because he can, not because it is a shortsword.

 

When it comes to artistic licensing, anything is fair game. However, it's commonly constrained by the direction Warframe wishes to take in the universe. That can really work both ways: Either like the anime-style feather-weight flailing of huge weapons, or the more deliberate, realistic Dark Souls style weapons use. 

 

There was a point in time where it would have been more like Dark Souls; It was over-the-top, yes, but there was a sense of weight to each swing. Momentum still had meaning, and using a heavier weapon was certainly more sluggish than a one-handed sword.

 

However, it's come to a point where I'm not entirely sure what direction DE wants to take with regards to the animation style of melee weapons. On the one hand, they still have that very weighty feel to certain attacks, but it's gotten to the point where most combos just seem to ignore the laws of physics which was earlier established in the game.

 

I personally dislike the Final Fantasy style of using heavy weapons: There's really no difference between characters using large weapons or small weapons; Whether two handed or one handed; Whether long or short; Whether thick or thin, it makes no difference. They just swing it like a roll of newspaper. Recoil, vibration, momentum, inertia, material strength, it means nothing to anyone living in Final Fantasy's universe. 

 

The beauty of weapons is that for each style of weapon with all their nuances: centre of balance; single edge or double edge, or just a thrusting point; cross-sectional shape of the blade; thickness of the blade; length of blades; length of hilt; type of guard; all make a difference in the use of a weapon. There's none of that in the way those shows are used. No variety, or life. Just swinging. It looks good on screen, sure, but the more I see it, the less I like it. Sephiroth doesn't capitalise on the length of his sword, and Cloud's huge-arse Buster sword won't even power through Sephiroth's flimsy blade. 

 

How the weapon behaves in terms of animation is vitally important to how it feels; That is true, and I agree. It makes no sense for a Dark Dagger to be wielded like a Scindo, as much as the Galatine should be wielded like a skana. And that has to do with the "Weight" of the weapon.

 

Examples:  

 

Dark Souls 2 great sword:

 

 

Dragon's Age 2 intro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlACgYHtWCI 

 

One is Dark Souls, which I've cited earlier, another is Dragon Age 2. Both videos convince the player that the weapon is heavy and powerful. The swings are fast, but they're slower to change direction, and thus, need more skill to wield quickly that goes beyond swinging newspaper rolls. The swordstaff is twirled to redirect momentum. Heavy blows are dodged, not blocked.

 

But like I mentioned before, I don't know where Warframe is going with this. It has both elements of being unrealistically anime, and elements of being pretty grounded. At this point, it's really up for debate what kind of style suits Warframe, but I've always seen it as a more Dragon's Dogma-ish melee combat, with some elements of Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry. However, personally, I really would hope they stay away from Final Fantasy style combat. 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Calayne

[Hueminator]

Right now I think the reasons heavy feel not heavy are

 

1) Damage

 

Galatine 45

Gram 45

Scindo 55

Fragor 55

Magic Star 50

Jat Kittag 80

 

Out of all of these only Jat Kittag got the good damage range.  I think heavy weapon should at least have 60-80 damage, with the up coming Scindo P maybe 90-100 damage (probably go with MR restriction) 

 

Look at Mk1-Bo, beginner weapon with 45 damage.

 

2) Stances

 

Out of 4 stances for Hammer and Axes/Greatsword, Rending Crane not having any extra damage modifier combo.  Crushing Ruin and Shattering Storm have one (well they only one beside the normal combo).  Cleaving Whirlwind have two.

 

Another common point I think is that combo for Heavy are too long.  They should be shorten with more damage modifier

 

Ex:

 

E Hold E

E E Hold E

Hold E E

E R+E

 

These short combo should get damage modifier at the end or modifier on the hold E strike and possibly getting charge animation back

Edited September 11, 2014 by Hueminator

[billthebetta]

Yeah, I'm with Calayne on this one. They're spot on with FF movie swordplay looking amazing, but not really feeling heavy. While it may be awesome to see hundreds of pounds of steel move as fast as it does in those movies, remember that that's a movie. As in, as a viewer you're distancing yourself from the characters and environment in the narritive. It's their story, their actions.

In a video game, you're the one acting, your story. Now this is just me, but I don't want to swing my Galatine as the speed of Zoren. What I want to do with my Galatine is position myself correctly, swing three times, and decimate a crowd of hulking Grineer. And heavy weps in their current state don't deliver that possibility. I want to feel the sword connect. I want the momentum to carry through.

I don't want to use my Galatine as a baseball bat or flyswatter.

 

Edit: Rereading your post, sounds like you want to use heavy-sized light weapons. You want size, but speed as well. Hurm...

Edited September 27, 2014 by billthebetta

[dashashou]

You should try warhammer 40k's  space marine - there 's a perfect ex of -  heavy weapons done right !

[Magnar21]

When it comes to artistic licensing, anything is fair game. However, it's commonly constrained by the direction Warframe wishes to take in the universe. That can really work both ways: Either like the anime-style feather-weight flailing of huge weapons, or the more deliberate, realistic Dark Souls style weapons use. 

 

There was a point in time where it would have been more like Dark Souls; It was over-the-top, yes, but there was a sense of weight to each swing. Momentum still had meaning, and using a heavier weapon was certainly more sluggish than a one-handed sword.

 

However, it's come to a point where I'm not entirely sure what direction DE wants to take with regards to the animation style of melee weapons. On the one hand, they still have that very weighty feel to certain attacks, but it's gotten to the point where most combos just seem to ignore the laws of physics which was earlier established in the game.

 

I personally dislike the Final Fantasy style of using heavy weapons: There's really no difference between characters using large weapons or small weapons; Whether two handed or one handed; Whether long or short; Whether thick or thin, it makes no difference. They just swing it like a roll of newspaper. Recoil, vibration, momentum, inertia, material strength, it means nothing to anyone living in Final Fantasy's universe. 

 

The beauty of weapons is that for each style of weapon with all their nuances: centre of balance; single edge or double edge, or just a thrusting point; cross-sectional shape of the blade; thickness of the blade; length of blades; length of hilt; type of guard; all make a difference in the use of a weapon. There's none of that in the way those shows are used. No variety, or life. Just swinging. It looks good on screen, sure, but the more I see it, the less I like it. Sephiroth doesn't capitalise on the length of his sword, and Cloud's huge-arse Buster sword won't even power through Sephiroth's flimsy blade. 

 

How the weapon behaves in terms of animation is vitally important to how it feels; That is true, and I agree. It makes no sense for a Dark Dagger to be wielded like a Scindo, as much as the Galatine should be wielded like a skana. And that has to do with the "Weight" of the weapon.

 

Examples:  

 

Dark Souls 2 great sword:

 

 

Dragon's Age 2 intro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlACgYHtWCI 

 

One is Dark Souls, which I've cited earlier, another is Dragon Age 2. Both videos convince the player that the weapon is heavy and powerful. The swings are fast, but they're slower to change direction, and thus, need more skill to wield quickly that goes beyond swinging newspaper rolls. The swordstaff is twirled to redirect momentum. Heavy blows are dodged, not blocked.

 

But like I mentioned before, I don't know where Warframe is going with this. It has both elements of being unrealistically anime, and elements of being pretty grounded. At this point, it's really up for debate what kind of style suits Warframe, but I've always seen it as a more Dragon's Dogma-ish melee combat, with some elements of Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry. However, personally, I really would hope they stay away from Final Fantasy style combat. 

I haven't played Devil May Cry much at all (like, maybe 2-5 hrs overall), but it was interesting. Didn't understand enough of the game to get the combos and stuff, and so it was entirely experimentation (well, experimentation in failure). Dark Souls 2, while interesting, I guess doesn't strike the visual appeal that I'm looking for. But man, that Intro for Dragon Age 2, that gets my blood pumping :)

 

Yeah, I'm with Calayne on this one. Their spot on with FF movie swordplay looking amazing, but not really feeling heavy. While it may be awesome to see hundreds of pounds of steel move as fast as it does in those movies, remember that that's a movie. As in, as a viewer you're distancing yourself from the characters and environment in the narritive. It's their story, their actions.

In a video game, you're the one acting, your story. Now this is just me, but I don't want to swing my Galatine as the speed of Zoren. What I want to do with my Galatine is position myself correctly, swing three times, and decimate a crowd of hulking Grineer. And heavy weps in their current state don't deliver that possibility. I want to feel the sword connect. I want the momentum to carry through.

I don't want to use my Galatine as a baseball bat or flyswatter.

 

Edit: Rereading your post, sounds like you want to use heavy-sized light weapons. You want size, but speed as well. Hurm...

 

Spot on with FF looking awesome, but not necessarily actually feeling heavy. That I do agree with, but you may be also right on about me wanting somewhat of a hybrid: the speed of a light, but the size and (some of) the power of a heavy weapon. Maybe I'm hoping too much for the best of both wolds though. Not sure I've really thought about distancing myself from "Cloud's story" vs. "my story", as there are a few too many things about Cloud's story that resemble my own, but perhaps this is just rose colored glasses.

 

Overall though, I just want more speed/control than say, the Fragor, but still more power/range than a normal light/shortsword. That staff/sword thing in the Dragon Age trailer though..... that looks absolutely awesome.

[Rekkou]

If greatswords should be used like light sword just for the "feel", then how do you use light sword? Made it to have anime style blindingly fast attack speed? And then how do you use dual daggers?

[Magnar21]

If greatswords should be used like light sword just for the "feel", then how do you use light sword? Made it to have anime style blindingly fast attack speed? And then how do you use dual daggers?

Right now, don't care. Don't use them much, except for coptering. As it is, they already are blindingly fast. So really, they aren't realistic as is. Warframe doesn't offer weak spot multipliers on weapons, so daggers are pointless, outclassed by pretty much everything out there. And again, this isn't a general weapon thread, but a heavy weapon one.