Boltor Prime: Killing The Game?

[Deccode]

 

Do you mean this?

 

 

This is a waste of DE(Ltd)'s time and destroys our (the players') fun with the game. 

 

Because, y'know, now you're trying to invalidate my argument by laser-focusing on a dependent clause I typed. There are a bunch of Fallacies of logic/critical thinking/whatever and I'm pretty sure this falls into one of them (not looking it up).

 

I mean, I guess you like an unbalanced game. You're not the crowd I'm trying to convince. Really, I'm trying to convince some devs on some off-chance they make it thiiiiis far into the thread, but I'm pretty sure they've gotten the picture a while ago and are busy with cooler things, like Archwing.

 

And why are you treating this thread like an IM? You're only doing OP a favor by keeping it bumped.

 

 

Well, I do not like unbalanced games, but my question is why do you care? Let's answer why I don't care first. Because everybody may have the boltor prime. I mean if I get weapon X into a long T4 survival run and the other 3 guys get a boltor prime. Why would I complain? I don't get it. You are talking as if they have access to the weapon but you don't. Why fix something that isn't broken or doesnt break anything?

And about the other people requesting higher mastery rating for the boltor prime. What when the player reaches that specific mastery rating, lets assume it's 8. Then he sells all other weapons and keeps boltor prime and gets bored with the game anyway. It's not the weapon it's the player. This topic is like all the other complaining about "rhino prime" or "loki prime" or even "majority use black color". This forum is complaining about everything, it doesn't make sense at all.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

Well, I do not like unbalanced games, but my question is why do you care? Let's answer why I don't care first. Because everybody may have the boltor prime. I mean if I get weapon X into a long T4 survival run and the other 3 guys get a boltor prime. Why would I complain? I don't get it. You are talking as if they have access to the weapon but you don't. Why fix something that isn't broken or doesnt break anything?

And about the other people requesting higher mastery rating for the boltor prime. What when the player reaches that specific mastery rating, lets assume it's 8. Then he sells all other weapons and keeps boltor prime and gets bored with the game anyway. It's not the weapon it's the player. This topic is like all the other complaining about "rhino prime" or "loki prime" or even "majority use black color". This forum is complaining about everything, it doesn't make sense at all.

I would argue that it does indeed break the game. When is the last time you saw someone using any other primary in rail conflicts? In my own personal experience everyone defaults to the Boltor Prime and Rhino Prime build when they go into rail conflicts. It's fine when a trend comes around but one would think it'd have died off a bit. Now RP/BP is turning into a way of life, the likes of which we haven't seen since the Loki Master Racers. I think everyone should be able to play the way they want, really I do. But when you see so much of a certain pattern, eventually you have to start wondering what the root of the problem is that is causing such a pattern to persist.

 

This thread is complaining about one thing and one thing only. The fact that a very powerful gun, one that is arguably the best in the game, is available to be acquired the moment you finish the tutorial mission. There is no standardized grind when you can have someone carry you through a few void missions to attain a gun that annihilates everything you'll encounter in the game. Why bother getting anything else at that point?

 

As the current situation stands, there is fault to be placed on both the player and the developer for this. I will never advocate a developer taking away a player's right to make mistakes in their game. However, if the mastery rank required to obtain prime weaponry and gear was raised, the blame can be taken away from the developer at least somewhat when players reach the point that they can utilize the best weapons and decide that everything that is not as powerful is worthless. That's on the player, and nobody else.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Deccode]

In fact I'm voting on taking the mastery system away completely. The boltor prime wont make you the game as easy as people claim. You still have to invest time into acquiring and leveling the mods.

Oh and I've never played in those dark sectors, no idea what's going on there.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

In fact I'm voting on taking the mastery system away completely.

Oh and I've never played in those dark sectors, no idea what's going on there.

That's fine, to each his own as far as playing what you want and not playing what you don't want.

 

However, you are speaking from a place of ignorance since you don't have all the facts nor the firsthand experience. Not to be rude nor to sound punitive (or to insinuate that I do have all the facts), but that does admittedly make your input slightly less valid. Here is essentially how Dark Sector Conflicts are as of now (in my experience of course)

 

At least half of the opposing team, and sometimes your own team, are comprised of Rhino Primes wielding Boltor Primes. So essentially you have one of the heaviest damage resistance frames and one of the heaviest damage output weapons going against you. The average player, when faced with this threat, would likely feel pressured to use their own Rhino Prime and Boltor Prime if for nothing else than to level the playing field. I'm doing my best not to speak on behalf of the community, but a certain amount of peer pressure seems to be at work here. Either that or about half of the players that I encounter simply enjoy playing on uber easy mode.

 

And why are you opposed to the Mastery Rank system? You think there should be no gradual introduction to powerful weaponry? List some games where you can attain the best weapons in the game for free right after you start the game.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Deccode]

Dont worry. Ignorance is not an insult for me, but your complain is hilarous. This is like me complaining on all the frost mages and discipline priests in 2vs2 arena and complaining about their brutal gladiator gear at that time. There will always be a go to class/frame/weapon/ input OP stuff here*. And btw i never played in a DS mission because of the same reason I don't like mastery rating. It's flawed and need a rework.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[Thundervision]

Remember Gorgon with its perfect accuracy for each bullet?

Remember Sniper Shotgun Hek with its non-falloff damage?

Even pre-patched Soma... Hell, all of them are nothing compared to BP.

 

I'm MR17, but those guys i've seen (mostly, MR2-MR10), they're just shooting everything that moves. That's not normal.

I can clearly say that Boltor Prime is the most Unbalanced weapon WF ever had. Yeah, i know you could make Doomsday gun in CBT.

 

Look, i don't mind if you bring your boltor, but don't forget there's a lot of other players who wants to enjoy the game, not only you and your Boltor.

 

Someone complain that BP is OP, someone say that it killing the game, someone wants to nerf it.

But, let's see how much simpler it can be:

When i'm seeing Nova or Rhino with BP not only in high-lvl missions, but low-lvl too, i know what will happen next and i just want to type in chat «go to Solo, damnit!». Of course, i can grab all rewards, but this way's not for me, i want to play too, not just running around and doing something except of killing the enemies.

 

So how the Hell i can enjoy the game and have fun where i can't kill anyone (no matter with guns or melee)? -- and, before someone will try to say something - can you tell me other point in Endless- (non-Void) missions?

 

Trying to kill that guy with melee, huh? No waaay, they're kill him faster than you with their Boltor.

What i'm supposed to do? Waiting for opportunity when their Boltors won't be able to kill the enemies so i could try to scratch them?

 

Again, look, if i see that someone's trying to kill the enemy with melee or guns - ok, np, mate, finish him, i'll take down another enemy. But (ofc, you could meet CoD-player (sarcasm, guys, easy)) when you see that «someone» comes to you while you're trying to finish the enemy and he's like «oh, i see, what's going on there. You don't need it, right? Anyway, i killed him already. Thanks!». And then he runs away.

You think: easy, dude, just find another enemy! Doesn't work - «Rhinoltor» will find you, oh God.

 

The main problem is BP is available for MR2. I'm just bored of seeing MR2 or MR4 %frame_name% with Boltor P on Pluto. Your gun won't safe you at 40+ w/o your skills and knowle

Deserved to be locked at least at MR10+ (there's a lot of MR10 players already).

 

Again, i don't mind if you bring your boltor, but don't forget there's a lot of other players who wants to enjoy the game.

It can be high-tier weapon, but with the players who think it's the best gun in WF, i got it and i'm doing everything i want - it's just a pain and no fun.

 

 In my own personal experience everyone defaults to the Boltor Prime and Rhino Prime build when they go into rail conflicts.

Thank God i don't play PvP, 'cause i can only imagine that mess :|

Trinity, Rhinos, Novas, Valkyrs, Loki or Ash are common Frames in SRC, right?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Spectre-Agent

[Deccode]

 

When i'm seeing Nova or Rhino with BP not only in high-lvl missions, but low-lvl too, i know what will happen next and i just want to type in chat «go to Solo, damnit!». Of course, i can grab all rewards, but this way's not for me, i want to play too, not just running around and doing something except of killing the enemies.

So if you see an Oberon with a boltor prime it's a complete different story? And the same could be said about you. Don't like it? Play solo.

[Thundervision]

So if you see an Oberon with a boltor prime it's a complete different story? And the same could be said about you. Don't like it? Play solo.

Learn to read, please.

 

When i'm seeing Nova or Rhino with BP not only in high-lvl missions, but low-lvl too, i know what will happen next and i just want to type in chat «go to Solo, damnit!». Of course, i can grab all rewards, but this way's not for me, i want to play too, not just running around and doing something except of killing the enemies.

 

So how the Hell i can enjoy the game and have fun where i can't kill anyone (no matter with guns or melee)? -- and, before someone will try to say something - can you tell me other point in Endless- (non-Void) missions?

 

Trying to kill that guy with melee, huh? No waaay, they're kill him faster than you with their Boltor.

What i'm supposed to do? Waiting for opportunity when their Boltors won't be able to kill the enemies so i could try to scratch them?

 

Again, look, if i see that someone's trying to kill the enemy with melee or guns - ok, np, mate, finish him, i'll take down another enemy. But (ofc, you could meet CoD-player (sarcasm, guys, easy)) when you see that «someone» comes to you while you're trying to finish the enemy and he's like «oh, i see, what's going on there. You don't need it, right? Anyway, i killed him already. Thanks!». And then he runs away.

You think: easy, dude, just find another enemy! Doesn't work - «Rhinoltor» will find you, oh God.

 i don't mind if you bring your boltor, but don't forget there's a lot of other players who wants to enjoy the game.

I met players like these only with Boltor.

 

What about me. Oh please, you can't insult me.

I'm using Grakata, Gorgon, Sybaris, Burston P, Grinlok and even Braton at T4 or Pluto (mostly of them doesn't have Heavy Caliber). I asked people if i killed too many enemies - no one complained. But still i just went to another room or side.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Spectre-Agent

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

Dont worry. Ignorance is not an insult for me, but your complain is hilarous. This is like me complaining on all the frost mages and discipline priests in 2vs2 arena and complaining about their brutal gladiator gear at that time. There will always be a go to class/frame/weapon/ input OP stuff here*.

Yes, there will always be a go to "rek S#&$" character and gun. Honestly that whole part of my reply was simply to let you know how Dark Sector Conflicts are currently and not really a supporting fact for my argument nor was it my own complaint. I have no issues dispatching RP/BPs with my Valkyr and Obex or my Oberon and Dragon Nikana. 

 

The only part of that which I will bring into my side of the argument is that on numerous occasions these RP/BP's have been MR0-4. Ranks which simply should not have access to such power yet. I don't say that because I "hate getting killed by noobs" or whatever else you're thinking of, I simply don't think that you should be able to go out and get a comparably overpowered gun right out of the gate just because you asked your friends "what's the most powerful gun and when can I get it".

 

I'm personally all for the reintroduction of Mastery Rank. Take EVERY gun, and evaluate what MR it is unlocked at according to what it's DPS and other base stats are.

 

Thank God i don't play PvP, 'cause i can only imagine that mess :|

Trinity, Rhinos, Novas, Valkyrs, Loki or Ash are common Frames in SRC, right?

Incredibly common. So much so that it is a rarity to see any other frames. I personally always bring my Valkyr (no Hysteria) into SRCs.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Deccode]

Learn to read, please.

Lol'd. Your first part of the blabbering was directing on rhinos and novas who use a boltor prime only the last part was directing on anybody. But that's not even the point, because I obviously knew that you meant "anybody" with a boltor prime throughout the whole post. It was a rhetorical question.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

Lol'd. Your first part of the blabbering was directing on rhinos and novas who use a boltor prime only the last part was directing on anybody. But that's not even the point, because I obviously knew that you meant "anybody" with a boltor prime throughout the whole post. It was a rhetorical question.

Look man, quit trolling. If you disagree, simply say so, say why, list your supporting reasons, and get on with your day.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Deccode]

Look man, quit trolling. If you disagree, simply say so, say why, list your supporting evidence, and get on with your day.

You want evidence of me showing what? Boltor prime is an OP weapon. I'm not denaying the facts here, what do you want lol? I'm just laughing at your evidence.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

You want evidence of me showing what? Boltor prime is an OP weapon. I'm not denaying the facts here, what do you want lol? I'm just laughing at your evidence.

Don't get me wrong, you're welcome to post as you see fit, but sticking around just to get your kicks out of other people's opinions is counterproductive.

 

And if my evidence is so funny, why aren't you replying to all of it instead of nitpicking individual parts of it? The least you could do is to be consistent.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Deccode]

Then leave. You have no purpose here.

 

Don't get me wrong, you're welcome to post as you see fit, but sticking around just to get your kicks out of other people's opinions is counterproductive.

 

And if my evidence is so funny, why aren't you replying to all of it instead of nitpicking individual parts of it? The least you could do is to be consistent.

Actually I am. In fact I correct myself. I don't see it as evidence but rather "reasons". Since you are just talk and not showing anything. Now I'm not saying it's not like you claim it is. Just it's not an evidence. Oh and btw I've posted questions above you know which got me some hilarous answers.

 

 I simply don't think that you should be able to go out and get a comparably overpowered gun right out of the gate just because you asked your friends "what's the 

I repeat it's the player not the weapon. If a newb, noob, new guy, call him whatever enters the game for the very first time and he finds out it's the boltor prime to reck !"#%$ up and he badly wants it, what will he do? He either farms the mastery rank required for the boltor prime, which let's say this thread has an impact on DE and they make it let's assume mastery rank 8, he get's bored while farming the mastery rank and quits or he quits even before trying or after realizing how long its gonna take.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

I'd rather grind to attain an ultimately powerful weapon than attain it early on and get bored of the rest of the game. 

 

And as I said before, yes, that is a problem with the player, but the developer is to blame for making it so easily accessible. I realize that increasing the MR isn't a perfect fix for this but an OP weapon simply shouldn't be attained from such an early stage. If players get bored of the game before they reach the increased MR requirement, that's on them and only them.

[Deccode]

I'd rather grind to attain an ultimately powerful weapon than attain it early on and get bored of the rest of the game. 

And that's you. Why force your way onto other people who may not like it.

And again, same could be said about you. If you get a powerful weapon on the start and get bored for the rest of the game then that's on you and only you. 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[LukeAura]

I repeat it's the player not the weapon. If a newb, noob, new guy, call him whatever enters the game for the very first time and he finds out it's the boltor prime to reck !"#%$ up and he badly wants it, what will he do? He either farms the mastery rank required for the boltor prime, which let's say this thread has an impact on DE and they make it let's assume mastery rank 8, he get's bored while farming the mastery rank and quits or he quits even before trying or after realizing how long its gonna take.

But he'll find many other weapons he'll enjoy along the way, because he can't compare them to the Boltor Prime first. Numbers only go so far, actually playing with a weapon is a whole different experience than looking at someone else use it, or reading the stats.

You can make that claim, but it's less likely. It is far more likely he will grow bored, and quicker, of having the Boltor Prime early on, than he will going through all the different weapons and frames in order to achieve the rank to use the Boltor Prime. People like variety, having the Boltor Prime easily available, reduces the value of that variety. Restricting it makes its impact on lower rank weapon variety less damaging. 

 

[Deccode]

But he'll find many other weapons he'll enjoy along the way, because he can't compare them to the Boltor Prime first. Numbers only go so far, actually playing with a weapon is a whole different experience than looking at someone else use it, or reading the stats.

You can make that claim, but it's less likely. It is far more likely he will grow bored, and quicker, of having the Boltor Prime early on, than he will going through all the different weapons and frames in order to achieve the rank to use the Boltor Prime. People like variety, having the Boltor Prime easily available, reduces the value of that variety. Restricting it makes its impact on lower rank weapon variety less damaging. 

 

I started the game playing with the boltor. Got boltor prime at mastery rank 2. Replaced excalibur as soon as I got rhino and then rhino prime. Colored everything black something is black and white yes yes the usual noob beginner or whatever. Now I'm mastery rank 8. Got The Paris Prime, Dread, Ogris, Dragon Nikana, Kronen Venka, Latron Wraith and ofc the Boltor Prime everything with at least 2 formas up to 5. There are a lot of weapons I still want at the moment, but I want them not just as fodder but because they are cool or OP in one way or the other. Everything else is being sold and used as fodder, increasing my mastery rank. So I think your claim doesn't reflect onto me. I really liked the way I started the game. Get a boltor prime, kill everything easily and don't have any strugle with almost anything. But I'm still here farming the fusion cores the other weapons the other warframes etcetc.

Edit: This might be because I played a lot of games where grinding and/or struggle is common. I like warframe for being not one of these games except leveling up the lv 10 mods to lv 10.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Deccode

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

I started the game playing with the boltor. Got boltor prime at mastery rank 2. Replaced excalibur as soon as I got rhino and then rhino prime. Colored everything black something is black and white yes yes the usual noob beginner or whatever. Now I'm mastery rank 8. Got The Paris Prime, Dread, Ogris, Dragon Nikana, Kronen Venka, Latron Wraith and ofc the Boltor Prime everything with at least 2 formas up to 5. There are a lot of weapons I still want at the moment, but I want them not just as fodder but because they are cool or OP in one way or the other. Everything else is being sold and used as fodder, increasing my mastery rank. So I think your claim doesn't reflect onto me. I really liked the way I started the game. Get a boltor prime, kill everything easily and don't have any strugle with almost anything. But I'm still here farming the fusion cores the other weapons the other warframes etcetc.

Edit: This might be because I played a lot of games where grinding and/or struggle is common. I like warframe for being not one of these games except leveling up the lv 10 mods to lv 10.

Being the exception to the rule doesn't provide reason as to why the foundation of the rule doesn't need altering.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Deccode]

Being the exception to the rule doesn't provide reason as to why the foundation of the rule doesn't need altering.

Again same could be said about your way of thinking lmao.

[MirageKnight]

 

I claimed plenty of facts through experience (the story of Vanilla Boltor), so I don't know what you're getting at there. If you want "hard numerical evidence":

 

 

 

And some more, from here:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/244344-prime-weapons-some-consistency-would-be-nice/

 

 

 

Which don't for a second take into account the Boltor Prime's incredible usability and that it's not limited by range, at least not in the context of Warframe's tile sizes. I'm talking purely from experience:

 

From my experience as a player who has played this game for a year and a half, the Boltor Prime is the most egregious case of power creep I have seen so far and could (and I mean that in the sense that the possibility is simply there) single-handedly restart and perpetuate a self-destructive cycle for the game that has been going on for almost a year.

 

That is all I said. Seriously. It took a while in my post, because I am extrapolating on every part to make sure people get it. And yeah, that sounds like exaggeration, but I've been watching it slowly happen for almost a year now. Power Creep is very real, and the Boltor Prime is strong evidence of it.

 

MR-locking the weapon keeps it out of the hands of new players, but it doesn't address the fact that when they get to MRwhatever, they're still probably going to see Boltor Prime as the end-all solution to Warframe's content. That's how I look at, that's what it feels like 1 hr into a T3/4.

 

Like a handful of OP weapons from days of Warframe yore, the Boltor Prime is in need of a nerf. These changes were good for the game as a whole. In a game of 140+ weapons to choose from, weapon balance is extremely important to the game's health, since the weapons you use are one of the major defining experiences of the game for a player.

 

That's the other thing I said.

 

You can't just invalidate someone's argument by saying "give me the facts" if the argument is derived from experience. To shorten, you can't just invalidate someone else's experience.

 

 

 

This is a threatened response. You were being defensive. Especially given how off-handed/non-inflammatory Archistopheles' statement was:

 

 

 

It's a given. You don't even have to look at the numbers. You don't even have to look at the stack of similar threads. Just go find a game with someone using Boltor Prime and watch the effortless rekage.

 

 

Where do I start...

 

Ok, your initial argument. You feel Boltor Prime needs nerfing because "It destroys your fun." Those were your words. That was your argument and it was weak and unconvincing.

 

Why was it weak? Because it relied on an appeal to emotion, which is considered to be a logical fallacy. Logic fallacies weaken arguments, therefore your argument was weak.

 

Defensive with regard to Archistopheles' comment...yes. Your point being? He made a fairly arrogant assumption and his tone struck me as being a bit condescending. So what's your point? I'm not allowed to respond to that in a civil manner? As far as me being defensive with regard to the Boltor Prime? I'll say again no. You can argue whatever you like

 

"All argument is derived from subjective experience"

 

*sigh* Wrong. Argument is derived from objective experience as well.

 

An argument is a verbal or written attempt to persuade. A valid argument is where the conclusion logically follows from the premises. A sound argument is where the argument is not only valid but the premises are true as well. A sound argument also tries to be as objective, reasonable, clear, and as truthful as possible.

 

If you doubt me, look it up.

 

On topic: I'm being quite serious here, so keep that in mind. With an MR of 8+, would the Boltor Prime still be OP? I do understand that some Prime weapons are a bit lackluster in terms of power in comparison and ought to be buffed themselves. I'm thinking that raising the MR to at least 8 would be a good and reasonable start.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

Again same could be said about your way of thinking lmao.

I never considered myself a special case because of my choices and actions. That's something you did mate.

 

 

And that's you. Why force your way onto other people who may not like it.

And again, same could be said about you. If you get a powerful weapon on the start and get bored for the rest of the game then that's on you and only you. 

 

 

 

As I said before, name a few multiplayer coop/pve/pvp games that have a vast array of weaponry and still allow you to attain the most powerful weapons right after you complete the tutorial. If you're lucky it could even be within three missions.

 

This isn't a matter of personal preference in play style like you're insinuating, it's a matter of balance of power and experience.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

I also want to clarify that this is not a personal thing against Boltor Prime. It is an underlying issue with the MR requirements and the fact that they are so inconsistent/unbalanced. Just giving Boltor Prime a mastery rank requirement won't solve the problem, an entire rework of the MR system is warranted at this point.

[MirageKnight]

I'd definitely agree that MR requirements for all weapons need looking at. In another thread, I was arguing for revising the entire system so that a given weapon's MR requirement is determined by a set formula and established criteria.

 

However, I think that much of the griping about the Boltor Prime can be addressed, in part at the very least, by raising its MR requirement to at least 8. 

It is definitely a given that the weapon itself is quite powerful with the right mods - even compared to other Prime weapons like the Braton Prime (to be fair though, the Braton Prime is arguably too weak for a Prime and needs a decent buff to begin with). If after raising the Boltor Prime's MR requirement to 8 and after buffing certain Primes the Boltor Prime STILL feels too powerful, then by all means reduce its power a bit. It's just adjusting a few numbers, so it shouldn't be that difficult for DE to change.

 

Unless of course there's an internal resistance to change.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

An argument is a verbal or written attempt to persuade. A valid argument is where the conclusion logically follows from the premises. A sound argument is where the argument is not only valid but the premises are true as well. A sound argument also tries to be as objective, reasonable, clear, and as truthful as possible.

Wow, someone else who understands the basis of a solid argument, and understands that it's not just a squabble aimed to put down both parties involved.

Edited September 22, 2014 by (PS4)KestralSylver