Defense Maps Module Loss Upon Failing - A Simple Solution/compromise

[Aerensiniac]

Make it so that modules are awarded for each 5 successful rounds.

In example: Should you fail at wave 6 then get all mods you have collected up till wave 5

 

IF the devs find this too easy then it can be adjusted by two simple factors:

 

1. Normalize mod drops for the first waves, then make them drop with higher chance the farther you get in defense (currently as far i can see mods drop irregularly. I have at times gotten 10+ mods in the first 5 waves, then other times i have gotten like 2).

In example:

Wave 1 = standard drop chance

Wave 10 = +10% (or whatever) chance

 

2. Move loot save rounds from each 5 to each 10 or 15.

In example: Should you fail at wave 9 you get nothing. Should you fail at wave 13 then you get all mods you have collected up till round 10. Etc.

 

Personally i have nothing against the current changes cause warframe finally feels like an actual game with risks and thinking involved. This suggestion stands only because of the community backlash. If the devs wish to compromise, then i think that the lines i have laid out in this post would be probably the easiest way of doing so.

[stacey69]

Removing gained loot from killing mobs when you leave on a spaceship at the end of a mission is the path to me and my friends leaving a broken game. Remove the rewards not loot thats gained from killing and you put in your pockets. This is a bad bad move for Warframe and the first in what could be many bad decisions that will kill a bad game. Theres a lot of games out there and im not fussed to walk away if a game becomes bad.

 

Change it soon please. 

[Aerensiniac]

Removing gained loot from killing mobs when you leave on a spaceship at the end of a mission is the path to me and my friends leaving a broken game. Remove the rewards not loot thats gained from killing and you put in your pockets. This is a bad bad move for Warframe and the first in what could be many bad decisions that will kill a bad game. Theres a lot of games out there and im not fussed to walk away if a game becomes bad.

 

Change it soon please. 

 

Then lets have a counter example: Keeping all the lukewarm "never lose anything, even if you fail" will make me and my friends leave cause all the game was, is a one way grind fest with 0 challenge to it.

Personally I think the changes were a step in the right direction.

 

Also, what makes you think that you get to leave the map cause a space ship is waiting for you?

If you failed it means you have died. You didnt leave.

Is it a plot hole? Yes ofc it is cause in that case you shouldnt appear on the selection screen like nothing happened, but at the same time, you have just watched your char die.

 

What makes you think that first you were dragged to the sick bay so the grineer could save your life, then conveniently escorted to your ship, along with all the still bloody loot you have gotten from the slaughtered enemies, and then simply sent off to try again?

Sorry. What? In what world do you think that makes sense?

[stacey69]

You sound a touch $&*&*#(%& but here goes. You dont die on failure the cyro dies which means i run away with all my loot in my pockets and head to my spaceship. Have a look around the forums. This is a bad idea and most agree. We play as many waves as possible for the "challenge" but to have your LOOT not XP or CREDITS removed is silly and game breaking. Not rocket science this.

[Xtorma]

You sound a touch $&*&*#(%& but here goes. You dont die on failure the cyro dies which means i run away with all my loot in my pockets and head to my spaceship. Have a look around the forums. This is a bad idea and most agree. We play as many waves as possible for the "challenge" but to have your LOOT not XP or CREDITS removed is silly and game breaking. Not rocket science this.

Personal attacks are never a good argument. You lose.

[blondiejay]

Take our money and exp, not our loot. Losing nearly 50 mods in a game at round 30 is horrible but I suppose you could argue that's the bigger part of the challenge?

[Aerensiniac]

You sound a touch $&*&*#(%& but here goes. You dont die on failure the cyro dies which means i run away with all my loot in my pockets and head to my spaceship. Have a look around the forums. This is a bad idea and most agree. We play as many waves as possible for the "challenge" but to have your LOOT not XP or CREDITS removed is silly and game breaking. Not rocket science this.

 

Defense is an exception in regards of this. Everywhere else you die. Yet even there the fact stands: You got overrun.

[ValhaHazred]

Risk vs. Reward, my friends. 

[stacey69]

Personal attacks are never a good argument. You lose.

As i said. A touch backwards. Your turn...

[stacey69]

Risk vs. Reward, my friends. 

Loot is not a reward mate. A reward is what you get at the end. Loot is collected. How hard is it to understand?

[Aerensiniac]

Loot is not a reward mate. A reward is what you get at the end. Loot is collected. How hard is it to understand?

 

Failed is failed. There is not much more that needs explaining.

[stacey69]

Failed affects REWARD not in game gained loot. <--- This is how it worked. <--- This is how is should work. Doesnt increase difficulty. It stops people from playing together online higher than round 10. It stops experienced players wanting to play with new players incase of failure. 

 

This change is an epic @(*()&#036; fail of the highest epic fail ranking charts. Get it changed back and ignore people who claim its fine. 

[Aerensiniac]

Failed affects REWARD not in game gained loot. <--- This is how it worked. <--- This is how is should work. Doesnt increase difficulty. It stops people from playing together online higher than round 10. It stops experienced players wanting to play with new players incase of failure. 

 

This change is an epic @(*()$ fail of the highest epic fail ranking charts. Get it changed back and ignore people who claim its fine. 

 

2 factors to understand here:

 

1.

Gain is directly proportional to effort. This is a base concept of all and any games.

A game that awards you the same amount independently of whether you won or lost does not work on the long run cause it damages the effort part of the calculation.

This in response will decrease the amount of time you will be interested in the game cause you will clear it quicker and without any effort.

 

2.

As a direct conclusion of 1. the only thing you and the rest of the "we want it back" gang will achieve, is that the devs will probably screw the drop rates over in order to motivate you to go farther with the waves.

Do you know how this will look like?

It will be what i stated in the OP: Waves 1-5 will have the standard drop rate you will see in any average mission, so you will be seeing like 3 mods if you are incredibly lucky. Then increases proportionally as you proceed. At wave 20 you might even get to a drop rate we have right now.

 

So let me get this straight:

The changes we will be having as beta proceeds will go towards the game's long livety instead of amassing everything for 0 effort.

You better get used to this as soon as possible, cause If it disturbs you that you cant take out your 30 mods after failing at wave 6 then you are directly encouraging the devs to reduce your 30 mods to 3.

Nothing more and nothing less.

This is what the game's logic demands and this is what WILL happen.

The best you can do is compromise like i am trying to. If you want more, then good bye and see you.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[blondiejay]

its not us that have the problem of getting to rounds farther than 30 for farming on xini etc. its just when we want to take a few new friends through things like that for fun now we cant, due to the risk of us losing mods as they are undergeared in comparison... just ruins a big part of a laugh in game. Also how are you so sure about what you say? "the only thing you and the rest of the "we want it back" gang will achieve, is that the devs will probably screw the drop rates over in order to motivate you to go farther with the waves"... This just screams elitism, and you scream wannabe im afraid lol :/

[ValhaHazred]

You could play a level appropriate map with them. Problem solved.

[Aerensiniac]

its not us that have the problem of getting to rounds farther than 30 for farming on xini etc. its just when we want to take a few new friends through things like that for fun now we cant, due to the risk of us losing mods as they are undergeared in comparison... just ruins a big part of a laugh in game. Also how are you so sure about what you say? "the only thing you and the rest of the "we want it back" gang will achieve, is that the devs will probably screw the drop rates over in order to motivate you to go farther with the waves"... This just screams elitism, and you scream wannabe im afraid lol :/

 

1. Difference in progress (aka equipment, level, etc) exist in all games that have a start and an end. While you are in end game, some might just be beginning.

If you want to have laughs then go and help your friends with bosses and farming so they can join you on higher difficulty missions such as endless defense.

The very notion of keeping everything easy enough so the level 1 newbies can farm defense missions to wave 30 with you, is beyond ridiculous.

Take this concept onto WoW or any other MMO and see whether or not people will take your suggestion seriously when you elaborate it to them, that you want your level 1 friend be able to raid end game with you.

 

2. Elitism.

Im sorry, but i do not think that the word means what you think it does.

In fact, let me look up a definition just be sure: "the belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."

That being said, please elaborate how having progress difference "screams elitism".

 

Following what you are saying, every game that has a progress difference in it (whether its a simple high scores table or level/equipments) is elitism.

Im sorry, but that notion (as well) is just ridiculous.

Based on that you couldnt even play tetris or pacman cause oh snap, the high score table shows that your score is not as high as someone else's. Clearly such a feature screams elitism.

 

No thanks.

[Hafilgar]

if they plan to keep this risk/reward concept, they need to up the rarity drop by a bit every wave or every 5 waves. Or go with that idea everyone else is talking about having a checkpoint every 5 waves. It should be high risk/high reward but right now as you go through each wave the risk increases, but the reward is still the same. From all the defense missions Ive played, I have not seen a noticeable increased chance for higher tier mods to drop. Ive gone up to wave 20 and they still drop commons just as often as in the first 5 waves..and then some occasional uncommons and 1 or 2 rares. So basically as of now it's HIGH RISK/LOW REWARD.

[Oizen]

Risk vs. Reward, my friends. 

A vitality mod at round 30.

 

WHAT A REWARD.

[Xtorma]

its not us that have the problem of getting to rounds farther than 30 for farming on xini etc. its just when we want to take a few new friends through things like that for fun now we cant, due to the risk of us losing mods as they are undergeared in comparison... just ruins a big part of a laugh in game. Also how are you so sure about what you say? "the only thing you and the rest of the "we want it back" gang will achieve, is that the devs will probably screw the drop rates over in order to motivate you to go farther with the waves"... This just screams elitism, and you scream wannabe im afraid lol :/

He is probably basing his statement on the fact that for weeks we had rushers and quitters threads galore. This was the fix for that. If you apply this fix and it's severity to the new problem now flooding the forums, it seems logical that they would nerf drop rate if they lowered difficulty.

[Aerensiniac]

He is probably basing his statement on the fact that for weeks we had rushers and quitters threads galore. This was the fix for that. If you apply this fix and it's severity to the new problem now flooding the forums, it seems logical that they would nerf drop rate if they lowered difficulty.

 

Would you look at that... someone with common sense.

+1 and well said.

[stacey69]

The op plays the forums, not the game.

 

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

 

Twat...

[Vilesavant]

People so RABIDLY defending that they should not lose their loot on these missions is just proving what DE_Steve posted to the first person that ran at him screaming, "ITS NOT FAIR!!1!!" While not a verbatim (its in there somewhere in the updates section) he basically stated its a risk vs reward and that folks were using it as the GO TO for farming, and now its not. You will now decide if its worth losing your 50+ mods or just take the few good ones you got at 15 or 20 waves and not risk it. I will agree the loot table for what you get at the end of the wave needs a look at, but chances are you want the ones you collected on you way up the ranks not so much the one at that 30th wave.

 

Edit: Here it is.

 

 

Correct, this mission type is about risk/reward tradeoffs. There was no risk before. We also feel this will help with the situation that certain players are *only* playing this gametype since there was no risk and it was the easist way to farm.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Vilesavant

[blondiejay]

Rushers I didn't mind, I do it myself to an extent without realising. And no the point im on about is still and I feel silly typing it again but hopefully it gets to you... I now have to become a prick who if I want to progress far in defence I would have to pick my most geared friends who have the same standards of cards and variation in choice of suits and weapons depending on the situation rather than someone in an excaliber, mk1-braton and a lato. Quite the example and a bit extreme but this didn't used to bother me as I loved taking lowers through loads of rounds in a higher place because its fun for us and reeeeally fun for them... obviously not all the time but what im getting at is that with the new process of losing all when u fail, I will now no way in hell risk going past 20 with them over my own selfish thoughts of do I really want to lose all these mods? ¬_¬ and I hate having to think like that. These are just my notions.

 

Also Xtorma, that wasn't my point but you seem more competent than Aerensiniac at least... If they raise the drop rate each 5 rounds and still apply the risk of being robbed of my loot then i honestly wouldn't even fuss, i'd probably prefer it.

[neKroMancer]

I see endless defense as a minigame thus it should be different  from regular drop pattern. However, the concept of risk&reward should be in effect in this mode as well. 

 

What we have to consider in endless defense mode.

1. It sole purpose is allowing players to gain mods in a faster pace without credit pay in the end.

2. Reward should be scaled with level of the AI. Higher level AI should drop higher rarity loot.

3. End of 5 wave reward should be scaled accordingly.

4. Element of 'gamble' should exist in order to make player decide at some point of the mission. 

 

One way to solve the trouble is making low level AI gives crappy reward but higher level AI gives 'absolutely' better reward. An incentive to play higher defense should be rare mods, not the amount of crappy mods you collected during low level. That's the point of defense.

 

Now the decision making part seems to bother lots of player. It should be, it's not about annoying - the game finally allow you to calculate the risk involving continuing the mission. Do you really want 20 crappy mods from low wave? Losing 20 sentinel redirection isn't a big deal anyway.

 

A fail-safe feature should comes with a cost. It shouldn't come free of charge. Perhaps buying a transporter from cash shop and let it transfer your loot (limited amount) into your inventory or at the cost of lower drop rate for the next two waves. 

[Pappus]

You sound a touch &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; but here goes. You dont die on failure the cyro dies which means i run away with all my loot in my pockets and head to my spaceship. Have a look around the forums. This is a bad idea and most agree. We play as many waves as possible for the "challenge" but to have your LOOT not XP or CREDITS removed is silly and game breaking. Not rocket science this.

 

Most of the time this is a lie to begin with. You peeps are not in there for the challenge or you wouldn't care for the loot. If a card appeared on wave 5/10/15 that you needed, you would leave in a moments notice aswell. So if people say they are in for the challenge, but would jump at specific lootcards they aren't in for the challenge but for the loot.

 

So please just don't lie around here. The reason people die so often on wave 13,19 whatever is, because they decided to go as far as they can as the 5 waves completion bonus did not convince them to leave and they would rather take their chances.

 

Now you have to guarantee you can tackle another 5 waves without fail. Given there is no increased reward yet for pushing further, but if you play regularly defence missions and in one round you decide to check if you can easily progress another 5 waves it won't matter even if you lose all your loot in that particular round given you are loaded with mods to begin with.