We Need "scaling" Mods!

[sinisterpink]

You have 10 points remaining on your Rifle's budget and you have a fire, ice, and shock mod to choose from. Which to do you choose?

 

The answer: NONE, because you've fused all 3 up to Level 11 after many dedicated hours and resources.

 

This issue can by avoided by leveling duplicate mods up to varying inferior levels. But why should we have to? Keeping duplicates adds even more clutter to an over-saturated inventory. It also puts a serious limitation on experimenting with builds, as a small difference in mod levels could unbalance your budget (forcing you to level up duplicates again).

 

What if: Every mod in your inventory had up/down arrows, that appeared over the card when you mouse-over them? You could power down your Level 11 No Return mod to Level 7/11; allowing you to experiment with squeezing in other mods  into your weapon or frame. This simple change would open up a new level of flexibility when it comes to 'build-crafting', save on inventory clutter, and save on needless grind to level and carry duplicates.

 

What do you think?

[AwAveZ]

Here is what i think

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/28899-suggestion-mods-and-warframeweapon-power-management/#entry259931

[Blatantfool]

I keep varying combinations of the most effective mods at different levels.

 

 

 You know that - no matter what - you have 30 points maximum to work with on a stock Warframe.

 

 And you also know that you'll have 60 on a Supercharged versions.

 

 

 So with a little common sense you can work out which levels of what mods are important for you to keep around. 

 

 

 

 My Braton Vandal has exactly 30 points used. I wont be supercharging it for the time being because I've got a very specific set up for how, when and what I do with my weapons.

 

 That 30 are used up because I had planned ahead which mods and what levels I'd need.

 

 Easiest thing in the world. As of today I even have 4 copies of Flow.

[sinisterpink]

I keep varying combinations of the most effective mods at different levels.

 

 

 You know that - no matter what - you have 30 points maximum to work with on a stock Warframe.

 

 And you also know that you'll have 60 on a Supercharged versions.

 

 

 So with a little common sense you can work out which levels of what mods are important for you to keep around. 

 

 

 

 My Braton Vandal has exactly 30 points used. I wont be supercharging it for the time being because I've got a very specific set up for how, when and what I do with my weapons.

 

 That 30 are used up because I had planned ahead which mods and what levels I'd need.

 

 Easiest thing in the world. As of today I even have 4 copies of Flow.

 

Like I said, going over-budget can be avoided with what you are doing. But if mods were scaling-enabled, it would add more flexibility and we could be freer to experiment with different combinations of mods and their levels.

 

And what happens when new mods are added in the future? Newer mods have the potential to be included in a player's 'best-in-slot' pool to choose from; will we be expected to keep varying levels of those mods too? Imagine the clutter, and imagine the time it will have to take just to build a collection of duplicates.

 

It's cool to level up mods, sure. It's satisfying to spend time in crafting a mod-build that works for you. But for many players, sinking hours and resources in leveling up 'duplicates' just isn't that fun. 

[Blatantfool]

Like I said, going over-budget can be avoided with what you are doing. But if mods were scaling-enabled, it would add more flexibility and we could be freer to experiment with different combinations of mods and their levels.

 

And what happens when new mods are added in the future? Newer mods have the potential to be included in a player's 'best-in-slot' pool to choose from; will we be expected to keep varying levels of those mods too? Imagine the clutter, and imagine the time it will have to take just to build a collection of duplicates.

 

It's cool to level up mods, sure. It's satisfying to spend time in crafting a mod-build that works for you. But for many players, sinking hours and resources in leveling up 'duplicates' just isn't that fun. 

 

 

 Yeah, I'm not going to lie and say that doesn't sound just fine. 

 

 But then think of how pathetically useless mod drops will start to become. You'll never need anything more then one of each of the important mods. Eventually players would max out every mod in the game and just scale them about.

 

 

 There has to be a reason to keep looking. To keep caring about drops.

 

 It should feel good to know you have multiple copies of a really valuable mod like Flow or Hell's Chamber. But if you've had a Hell's Chamber from before and long since maxed it you'll never really care to get a new copy. Even with trading the value of everything would eventually flatten to near nothing.

 

 

 Edit: This kind of thing is a concession the game has to make because it is a game. They can't be convenient 100% of the time. DE's gotta occasionally take care of their own needs too. If getting duplicate drops of any description one day becomes worthless they'll be in pretty nasty trouble.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Blatantfool

[sinisterpink]

 Yeah, I'm not going to lie and say that doesn't sound just fine. 

 

 But then think of how pathetically useless mod drops will start to become. You'll never need anything more then one of each of the important mods. Eventually players would max out every mod in the game and just scale them about.

 

 

 There has to be a reason to keep looking. To keep caring about drops.

 

 It should feel good to know you have multiple copies of a really valuable mod like Flow or Hell's Chamber. But if you've had a Hell's Chamber from before and long since maxed it you'll never really care to get a new copy. Even with trading the value of everything would eventually flatten to near nothing.

 

 

 Edit: This kind of thing is a concession the game has to make because it is a game. They can't be convenient 100% of the time. DE's gotta occasionally take care of their own needs too. If getting duplicate drops of any description one day becomes worthless they'll be in pretty nasty trouble.

 

I don't believe 'farming for duplicates' should be one of the main motivations for collecting mods.

 

There is an exponential leveling curve for leveling mods. So the majority of the player base won't be finding themselves maxing all their mods in an inconceivably short amount of time.

 

Ideally, the new mods released in future builds should act as incentives for unwanted/duplicate mods. Mods can also be sold, so with these thoughts in mind there are already plenty of other options for using these unwanted mods.

[Blatantfool]

I don't believe 'farming for duplicates' should be one of the main motivations for collecting mods.

 

There is an exponential leveling curve for leveling mods. So the majority of the player base won't be finding themselves maxing all their mods in an inconceivably short amount of time.

 

Ideally, the new mods released in future builds should act as incentives for unwanted/duplicate mods. Mods can also be sold, so with these thoughts in mind there are already plenty of other options for using these unwanted mods.

 

 I've never farmed duplicates. They just happen. When you DO get one you wanted it is nice.

 

 But if you remove the entire point of having duplicates it'd not matter. After the first lucky break you wouldn't need to care anymore. That presents a problem. It'd be gradual - but inevitable. 

[sinisterpink]

 I've never farmed duplicates. They just happen. When you DO get one you wanted it is nice.

 

 But if you remove the entire point of having duplicates it'd not matter. After the first lucky break you wouldn't need to care anymore. That presents a problem. It'd be gradual - but inevitable. 

 

That's the thing: I don't believe the 'entire point' of having duplicates should be for character customization. There's an increasing large amount of time and RNG that goes behind every duplicate; two factors that put a serious limitation on experimenting and trying different builds.

 

Duplicate mods provide fusion-fodder for other mods with identical polarities, they also provide cash. They are far from useless; even without the need to build duplicates just for customization. Once DE begin introducing new mods and WF abilities (which they intend), there will be even more opportunities to spend unneeded mods. So given those points, I think there is little risk losing farming incentives, and the benefit of having improved customization is far greater.

[Blatantfool]

That's the thing: I don't believe the 'entire point' of having duplicates should be for character customization. There's an increasing large amount of time and RNG that goes behind every duplicate; two factors that put a serious limitation on experimenting and trying different builds.

 

Duplicate mods provide fusion-fodder for other mods with identical polarities, they also provide cash. They are far from useless; even without the need to build duplicates just for customization. Once DE begin introducing new mods and WF abilities (which they intend), there will be even more opportunities to spend unneeded mods. So given those points, I think there is little risk losing farming incentives, and the benefit of having improved customization is far greater.

 

 Dude, the entire point of mods is character customization. That is what the feature DOES.

 

 So of course anything you use them for is customization centric.

 

 And it is never and increasingly large amount of RNG. The odds of a specific mod are static. 

 

 

 And the fusion fodder is temporary.With his idea in place eventually a mod would be maxed and you'd never have to bother with a copy of it again. This goes for any mod. It'd be less about having a varied deck of mods of all kinds and more about simply having one of every type maxed out. 

Edited April 21, 2013 by Blatantfool

[sinisterpink]

 Dude, the entire point of mods is character customization. That is what the feature DOES.

 

 So of course anything you use them for is customization centric.

 

 And it is never and increasingly large amount of RNG. The odds of a specific mod are static. 

 

 

 And the fusion fodder is temporary.With his idea in place eventually a mod would be maxed and you'd never have to bother with a copy of it again. This goes for any mod. It'd be less about having a varied deck of mods of all kinds and more about simply having one of every type maxed out. 

 

I see where you're coming from, and I think your points are valid. But I think there are more benefits (both short term and long) for the players if, after spending a large amount of time finding/maxing out a mod, could be free to adjust and tailor its power to their frame or weapon.

 

I never said the point of mods were 'not' about customization, and I think I've said twice that the introduction of newer mods will continue to motivate players to collect 'fusion fodder' mods.

 

I shake your hand good sir, let's agree to disagree.

[Blatantfool]

I see where you're coming from, and I think your points are valid. But I think there are more benefits (both short term and long) for the players if, after spending a large amount of time finding/maxing out a mod, could be free to adjust and tailor its power to their frame or weapon.

 

I never said the point of mods were 'not' about customization, and I think I've said twice that the introduction of newer mods will continue to motivate players to collect 'fusion fodder' mods.

 

I shake your hand good sir, let's agree to disagree.

 

  Fair enough.

 

  I told him above - it isn't that his idea is bad, it just cuts down on a resource DE kinda needs a fair amount of. Which is the resource players called "Things we need."

 

 

 If they ever allow there to be a 'perfect' state they risk those players simply getting bored. 

 

 If we where to just talk hypothetically about it - ask the important question of "How does DE set this up so people can never have it all?" - two distinct answers pop up.

 

 Higher inflation of fusion costs at higher card ranks.

 

 and

 

 Add new mod sets often enough that players can't technically cap out.

 

 

 

 Since the first is kinda lame and would probably whip up a sh*tstorm strong enough to move the DE offices to a new location lets assume the second option.

 

 

 So what happens? What kind of positives? What kind of negatives?

 

 

 First would comes the big positive - "NEW TOYS. MORE BUILDS!" and I'm pretty sure I don't gotta explain why thats so cool.

 

 

 But then comes the negative. I'd like to link a video instead of yammering on myself, this video actually explains the concept to you clearer then I would.

 

 That issue is power creep. Nearly every game has it and nearly every game has to find ways to fix it. It is all around bad for videogames.

 

  Here is that video, it is actually pretty fantastic: 

 

 

 Warframe will inevitably have to deal with the concept of power creep regardless of this guys suggestion - but if they had to odd more and more different mods every month or so it'd actually happen much faster and at a much higher rate.

[Naqel]

It's a problem that should be solved with a better game design, not an extra UI element.

 

Speaking of game design...

 

 

 Since the first is kinda lame and would probably whip up a sh*tstorm strong enough to move the DE offices to a new location lets assume the second option.

[...]

 But then comes the negative. I'd like to link a video instead of yammering on myself, this video actually explains the concept to you clearer then I would.

 

 That issue is power creep. Nearly every game has it and nearly every game has to find ways to fix it. It is all around bad for videogames.

 

  Here is that video, it is actually pretty fantastic: 

 

 

 Warframe will inevitably have to deal with the concept of power creep regardless of this guys suggestion - but if they had to odd more and more different mods every month or so it'd actually happen much faster and at a much higher rate.

 

For the love of gods...

 

It's really cute that you link an EC video, and I myself respect the guys more than anyone else in my life, but you absolutely did not get ANYTHING from that video.

 

First of all: new content =/= power creep.

 

Having more content wouldn't mess things up, if anything it'd highlight how utterly broken the game currently is.

There's literally nothing left that could be added to increase the power creep in this game any more, unless the team caves in and reintroduces dual stat mods again.

 

Which brings me to the second point: this game already has massive power creep issues.

 

For each weapon category, all the mods do is increase the DPS. Sure, there's stun mods, puncture mods, and ammo ones for the guns, but nobody will ever use those.

Frames have it a little better, but because of the polarity system and a poor choice of how powers are paid for in terms of resources, there's also a clear best path for each frame.

 

In it's current form, the game is entirely designed about stacking DPS, and improving ammo efficiency(or survival if you play a 'tank'). 50% of the weapon mods do both for a weapon, and frames are pigeonholed into a certain best build by their polarities and power sets.

You won't use cool mods like a loot radar, and on some frames you'll skip out certain powers, because the utility those provide would cut into your power budget, without being really worth it.

 

That's exactly what power creep is: a situation where content is rendered obscure by another piece of it.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Naqel

[dzonatan]

 I've never farmed duplicates. They just happen. When you DO get one you wanted it is nice.

 

 But if you remove the entire point of having duplicates it'd not matter. After the first lucky break you wouldn't need to care anymore. That presents a problem. It'd be gradual - but inevitable. 

I dare to question whether it would ever be a problem to begin with. Isnt that just your own preference to keep multiple copies of same mods?

[Blatantfool]

 

First of all: new content =/= power creep.

 

 

 

 Not always, but in this case you are talking about having to rapidly release new mod types every month. Power creep would happen.

 

 Edit: Actually, Power Creep is simply the increase in the power of the players as new content is released and the Devs manage to open up more and better options. The new content making old content worthless is a side effect of power creep. 

Edited April 21, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Blatantfool]

I dare to question whether it would ever be a problem to begin with. Isnt that just your own preference to keep multiple copies of same mods?

 

 Well, less about preference and more about it just being smart to tune a mob build down to what really fits a weapon and then leave those mods in permanently. So duplicates at different levels simply become the helpful building blocks of later weapons.

 

 Although with the change mentioned in this thread it would be more efficient to have a single set of one of each mod that you work up to max level so that you can move them to and from different gear and simply tweak their statistics.

 

 There would be much less reason to care about mod drops.

[Naqel]

 Not always, but in this case you are talking about having to rapidly release new mod types every month. Power creep would happen.

 

Did you even read the rest of my post?

 

Because this reply is downright insulting.

[dzonatan]

 Well, less about preference and more about it just being smart to tune a mob build down to what really fits a weapon and then leave those mods in permanently. So duplicates at different levels simply become the helpful building blocks of later weapons.

 

 Although with the change mentioned in this thread it would be more efficient to have a single set of one of each mod that you work up to max level so that you can move them to and from different gear and simply tweak their statistics.

 

 There would be much less reason to care about mod drops.

 

Let's stop prettending that we are all constantly excited each time we see that round shiny metal thing on the floor.

[Pappus]

The second you have multishot/ap/elementals/basedmg maxed out you would have played through the game if it was scaleable as suggested.

[krisp]

 Not always, but in this case you are talking about having to rapidly release new mod types every month. Power creep would happen.

If and only if they make the new mods better than the old ones. If they're just sidegrades there won't be any power creep. See: TF2.

 

Also yes there at least needs to be a downgrade option for your mods. I don't even care if we have to spend money again to upgrade them, I just don't want to upgrade another mod to (this one's level -1) to be able to use it.

[ZKAT8IT]

I dare to question whether it would ever be a problem to begin with. Isnt that just your own preference to keep multiple copies of same mods?

It's everyones preference whether to keep multiple copies of the same mod or not. You have the option to sell, or fuse them if you don't want them. I like having multiple copies, this way I'm not wasting time removing mods and re-equipping them between different weapons and frames. As I'm sure others like to have this option as well. Max out a mod to a point where you can't test your build or put it on another weapon without going over the power limit? You now have to farm for a new one, or fuse another one to meet your requirements. Sure it costs credits, and you might have to farm for another. That's the point behind the system.

 

We're given the choice to have multiple copies for the convenience of having the same mod equipped on different weapons/frames to be able to switch quickly during the voting time before a mission starts when playing online, or just to get to the next mission quicker in general. By removing this ability and scaling your mod. You no longer need to farm once you acquire the mod. Once it's maxed you no longer need credits, or fusion cores, or multiples of the card. This then makes it pointless to farm for anything and kills a major aspect of the game. So now you just end up sitting on a major pile of credits with nothing to spend it on. Sure you spend 20k here or there to craft a new weapon. You make that back in 2 or 3 alert missions now.

 

Sure scaling mods may make it more convenient for you to test your build instead of taking a few minutes to plan ahead a little and add up the points on the mods you wish to use. But at the same time it'll break the system currently in place. Game developers can't always give you an easy mode button for every aspect of a game. 

[Blatantfool]

If and only if they make the new mods better than the old ones. If they're just sidegrades there won't be any power creep. See: TF2.

 

Also yes there at least needs to be a downgrade option for your mods. I don't even care if we have to spend money again to upgrade them, I just don't want to upgrade another mod to (this one's level -1) to be able to use it.

 

 TF2 is balanced a bit differently then Warframe though. Not to mention - different developers.

 

 Valve is notorious for play testing and focus testing everything that comes from them to almost insane levels.

 

 I'm pretty sure WE are the play testing for DE. And most of the time people make threads that don't even talk about basic problems or anything. The forums like to get hung up on a few popular topics.

 

 

 I don't honestly think DE could expect to release mods with new abilities and effects often enough to stay ahead of the players without power creep starting to occur. 

[Naqel]

 Edit: Actually, Power Creep is simply the increase in the power of the players as new content is released and the Devs manage to open up more and better options. The new content making old content worthless is a side effect of power creep. 

 

Just... stop. Don't post about game design ever again. You clearly have no clue, and all of this is way outside of your capability.

 

I thought you were trying to somehow insult me before, but this edit just shows that you simply do not understand what it is that is being discussed.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Naqel

[sinisterpink]

It's everyones preference whether to keep multiple copies of the same mod or not. You have the option to sell, or fuse them if you don't want them. I like having multiple copies, this way I'm not wasting time removing mods and re-equipping them between different weapons and frames. As I'm sure others like to have this option as well. Max out a mod to a point where you can't test your build or put it on another weapon without going over the power limit? You now have to farm for a new one, or fuse another one to meet your requirements. Sure it costs credits, and you might have to farm for another. That's the point behind the system.

 

We're given the choice to have multiple copies for the convenience of having the same mod equipped on different weapons/frames to be able to switch quickly during the voting time before a mission starts when playing online, or just to get to the next mission quicker in general. By removing this ability and scaling your mod. You no longer need to farm once you acquire the mod. Once it's maxed you no longer need credits, or fusion cores, or multiples of the card. This then makes it pointless to farm for anything and kills a major aspect of the game. So now you just end up sitting on a major pile of credits with nothing to spend it on. Sure you spend 20k here or there to craft a new weapon. You make that back in 2 or 3 alert missions now.

 

Sure scaling mods may make it more convenient for you to test your build instead of taking a few minutes to plan ahead a little and add up the points on the mods you wish to use. But at the same time it'll break the system currently in place. Game developers can't always give you an easy mode button for every aspect of a game. 

 

Thanks for the clear post. But you basically reiterated what Blatantfool said earlier, while he was still being coherent.

 

Our argument is that we don't believe it is 'the point behind the system' to have to hoard a collection of duplicates for every viable mod type, just so you can customize your frame or weapons for a specific build/situation. We don't believe scaling mods removes the motivation to continue farming/collecting, because they are still other ways to use them. You can trade mods in for cash; new items and mods in the future will require both fodder mods and cash. 

 

Keep in mind that DE can, at any time, adjust prices marketplace prices and fusion requirements if the player base gets too saturated in any one resource.

 

Another point: DE announced recently they have a mod tier 'higher than rare' on standby, which would understandably have a much lower drop chance than Rare (shudders). Who knows, in the future there may be even higher tiers of mods introduced. I really believe that players who somehow discover those mods and max them SHOULD have the freedom to adjust those mods and be free to experiment with them. They would have invested hours upon hours into fusing them up; it's an achievement, and they should be rewarded accordingly instead of having limitations placed on them.

Edited April 21, 2013 by sinisterpink

[Blatantfool]

Just... stop. Don't post about game design ever again. You clearly have no clue, and all of this is way outside of your capability.

 

I thought you were trying to somehow insult me before, but this edit just shows that you simply do not understand what it is that is being discussed.

 

 Rewatch the video I linked. You've gotten rusty on what he said.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Blatantfool]

Let's stop prettending that we are all constantly excited each time we see that round shiny metal thing on the floor.

 

 I only get excited when its something good. I prefer to have lots of copies of core mods like AP for different weapons and such.

 

 

 Also Multishot for shotguns isn't a bad one to have a few of.