Battle Pay Solution

[tpollett]

Ok, so I've seen a number of ideas floating around regarding battle pay but not the one single solution: as soon as a Tenno joins the conflict that pay is automatically deducted from the reserve. If they leave before mission is finished, the pay goes back into the reserve. Eliminates any accusations of "pay baiting" as well as ensure those who join get what they are expecting. Waiting till the end to remove pay from the reserve is just asking for complaints. The clans are already expecting to use that amount of money so they don't lose anything from this. The players are guaranteed that if they entered to mission expecting to get paid that they will actually get paid.

If between the time you choose a side and are able to hit the start mission button and the system starts a game the pay reserve runs out; it kicks you back to the nav menu and says the pay reserve has been exhausted.

Anyone think of a reason this wouldn't work? I'm not talking technical things like programming as I know nothing about that; but is there a flaw in my logic.

EDIT: I am a fairly recent recruit to warframe (cryotic front was almost ended when I started) so if this has been suggested before I apologize for treading on a well beaten path. I just haven't seen this suggestion on here since I started looking.

Edited October 18, 2014 by tpollett

[Escantell]

Makes sense to me.  I've been in a few of those where the clan only had enough for a few people, but i didnt know about it until the end, when i didnt get a reward.  it kinda ticked me off. what i have to wonder about is what happens if theres only enough reserve for like 2 people in a 4 man squad?

[noveltyhero]

I've been wanting this since DS were released >.>

[DurganKael]

I was just thinking about that today myself. Definitely seems like a solid way to handle it.

[Escantell]

I have to admit, I gave up on those after the first few times i didn't get the promised reward. that, in addition the the massive taxes that are implimented once a node is no longer contested, put me off of dark sectors. not really worth it.

[tpollett]

Yeah; I only really use dark sectors for the experience boost.

A suggestion a buddy of mine made was to not allow battle pay to be given to clan or alliance members. They ought to be protecting their rail (or attacking as the case may be) out of loyalty to their clan. Battle pay is to get mercs to fight for you; not to post a battle pay and then have clan members scoop it up while having a bunch of players fight for free due to the aforementioned janky system. If you have two kids; you don't pay one to watch the other. You pay a third party to watch your kids.

Also; I propose that pay baiting ought to be defined as posting a high payment and then having clan members scoop it up so it looks like you are offering a nice reward when only a few people outside the clan will be getting paid. I'm not accusing anyone of doing or having done that as I have no evidence to support such a claim; though given that I thought it was a possible method means others have and would definitely use that tactic to get free or cheap labor.

[Dyrewulf]

I just finished two games where the payout was 55K credits and the game ended prematurely because all of the opposing team quit. I never get my payout, and I presume the paying alliance/clan doesn't get the benefit of the win from it as well.

 

There is no incentive to continue playing a losing game. The battle pay system is flawed in that it attracts players to the side offering the battle pay, and the side not offering it doesn't have an incentive.

 

I would recommend that non clan/alliance members don't get to choose which side they join. Give all players a reward at the end of a complete match. Something minor, like a Fusion Core. The winning players get battle pay and a (minor reward) and the losing players only get a (minor reward.)

[REDHOOOD]

Maybe you get half or quarter of pay when you join - it makes no sense to pay someone before the job is done. This is coming from someone who doesn't play for for battle pay. 

 

Moreover, if you sell your soul for a few credits to empower corrupt tyrants - then, its really hard to feel sorry for you. 

 

Just a reminder:

 

A tax free sechura with credit drops is about 40-50k for 10-15 minutes - or less with speed nova. Hiercon (tax free) is also about 40-50k for 15 minutes. On top of that, you get mods, mats, and fusion cores. Edit: 10-15 mins is also the average time for someone to finish a DS PvP - when PuGing. 

 

I ask you: is it really worth the humiliation, anger, and disappointment that you feel after a DS PvP - when you don't receive payment?

 

Red 

Edited October 19, 2014 by REDHOOOD

[Fraank]

Ok, so I've seen a number of ideas floating around regarding battle pay but not the one single solution: as soon as a Tenno joins the conflict that pay is automatically deducted from the reserve. If they leave before mission is finished, the pay goes back into the reserve. Eliminates any accusations of "pay baiting" as well as ensure those who join get what they are expecting. Waiting till the end to remove pay from the reserve is just asking for complaints. The clans are already expecting to use that amount of money so they don't lose anything from this. The players are guaranteed that if they entered to mission expecting to get paid that they will actually get paid.

If between the time you choose a side and are able to hit the start mission button and the system starts a game the pay reserve runs out; it kicks you back to the nav menu and says the pay reserve has been exhausted.

Anyone think of a reason this wouldn't work? I'm not talking technical things like programming as I know nothing about that; but is there a flaw in my logic.

EDIT: I am a fairly recent recruit to warframe (cryotic front was almost ended when I started) so if this has been suggested before I apologize for treading on a well beaten path. I just haven't seen this suggestion on here since I started looking.

 

At first, You cant change/delete the battlepay once it's set up.

 

Your solution would cause a lot of problems. not for the current battlepay, but for the following one.

If it is possible to set up battlepay while still groups are running with the old bp, it will cause even more problems.

Add the reserves to the new battlepay, e.g. 100k battlepay  goes back to the new reserves( 100k) for 100 runs. => 200k resrves for 200 runs.  => which means the tactician cant plan that precisely anymore.

 

If it were not possible to set up battlepay while still groups are running with the old bp, it would prevent the tactician from setting up a new battlepay and maybe they ll loose a rail because of that.

 

My solution: => you are simply too slow. Finish your missions in time.

[tpollett]

To clarify; the player would not get the money until the battle is complete and if they drop for any reason they get nothing. What I was suggesting is that the money is put in what amounts to escrow till they claim it by completing their assignment. I'm not suggesting players get paid up front. This idea would simply ensure that if you join a DS conflict expecting pay, you will get said payment.

As for tyrranical clans and alliances; I specifically didn't want to address that as I haven't been playing long enough or walked in the other sides shoes long enough to know what would be an equitable solution to that. For me, DS are for experience grinding exclusively so what they tax isn't relevant to me. Besides, the clans that tax the highest are typically the ones who pay the best and thus that money gets funneled back to the mercs. Granted; it's basically an incredibly stupid system that propagates an oligarchy. I'm opposed to the entire concept of clans controlling dark sectors and being able to decide their own tax scheme for that area. Make the tax rate set for each system so the clan gets a piece but the players always come out with over 100% credit/resource gains and you will remove at least one factor that would contribute to a single clan or small group of clans owning all the dark sectors.

In addition to the above; talk is cheap and as every clan is, potentially, as untrustworthy as any other clan in regards to their tax, I see no reason to vilify or be loyal to any of them. Again, in time I may come to recognize a pattern of low taxes from certain clans and may decide to support them without pay. Until such a time, I will be fighting for who pays me. Though, some clans have been proving to set high battle pays and then stuff the deck with their own clan members to keep the money in guild and as I learn to differentiate those clans I may start fighting against them regardless of pay because that is shady.

I agree with the above poster that the opponent quitting and getting dumped back to the Liset with nothing to show for the effort needs to be addressed. Whether it be through dedicated dark sector servers run by DE to remove host migration issues or some other solution; the fact remains that a solution is needed.

[tpollett]

At first, You cant change/delete the battlepay once it's set up.

 

Your solution would cause a lot of problems. not for the current battlepay, but for the following one.

If it is possible to set up battlepay while still groups are running with the old bp, it will cause even more problems.

Add the reserves to the new battlepay, e.g. 100k battlepay  goes back to the new reserves( 100k) for 100 runs. => 200k resrves for 200 runs.  => which means the tactician cant plan that precisely anymore.

 

If it were not possible to set up battlepay while still groups are running with the old bp, it would prevent the tactician from setting up a new battlepay and maybe they ll loose a rail because of that.

 

My solution: => you are simply too slow. Finish your missions in time.

This is a problem I did not consider, assuming I am understanding you correctly. I see a simple solution though. Tactician sets up 20k payouts with 200k reserve. 10 players start the mission; reserve is exhausted and the tactician is free to start another payout with a different reserve. Of the original 10 players, 5 complete the mission and 5 leave before completion. 100k total is given to the 5 players who completed the mission; the other 100k is placed back into the clans vault ready to be used by the tactician for another battle pay.

As for your solution requesting me to hurry up; that seems like a very ignorant answer. As there is no way to determine how many other players are currently participating in the conflict; no matter how fast I go I can't finish the entire mission if all the pay is used up because 50 players are all on the core destruction (or only have to kill 5 attackers) to finish their mission.

[REDHOOOD]

-snip-

 

For future posts, please stick with take home messages - I humoured you by reading the entire post, this time. We do not need to know your entire thinking process. My response follows: 

 

No matter how you pitch it, nothing justifies a full payout for unfinished work. I am against battle pay mercs and EXT Frank's entire alliance; but I agree with him in this case. You choose which side to support and the deal with consequences that follows. The bar will not be lowered for you - you have to reach the bar. My suggestion is to use your best judgement: e.g. 500k battle pay with 5 million in reserve, would probably require you to finish the run in 2-5 minutes. 

 

I am unsure what you mean by "talk is cheap" as I am merely stating a fact. If you fight for battle pay, you will surely run into me, and I made pestering battle pay mercs into an art. But since your new to forums, I'll be gentle and say "good luck". 

 

There are many sources that provide insight on certain alliance's dealings: in game region chat and reddit subforums. I will refrain from posting here to avoid "naming and shaming" violations - However, I am confident you can find them. If in doubt, I am sure the taxes on nodes will provide sufficient information to drawn your own conclusions. 

 

Red

[Fraank]

This is a problem I did not consider, assuming I am understanding you correctly. I see a simple solution though. Tactician sets up 20k payouts with 200k reserve. 10 players start the mission; reserve is exhausted and the tactician is free to start another payout with a different reserve. Of the original 10 players, 5 complete the mission and 5 leave before completion. 100k total is given to the 5 players who completed the mission; the other 100k is placed back into the clans vault ready to be used by the tactician for another battle pay.

As for your solution requesting me to hurry up; that seems like a very ignorant answer. As there is no way to determine how many other players are currently participating in the conflict; no matter how fast I go I can't finish the entire mission if all the pay is used up because 50 players are all on the core destruction (or only have to kill 5 attackers) to finish their mission.

No offense, but my answer is not ignorant, it's the only fair answer.

 

Let's take your example: 200k reserve with 20k payouts: and 20 groups start the mission. the 10 groups that started the mission at first will get paid first no matter how long they need to complete the mission. (let s assume they need 20 minutes)  the last 10 groups wont get paid, even if they only need 10 minutes. Beeing not paid for beeing the first (who finishes a mission) is not fair.

 

Furthermore, when the reserved battlepay goes back to the vault, it would be easier for alliances/clans to paybait. I am a warlord, i can setup let's say 20million reserve with 1m payouts. Give me  5 to 6 squads with  4 players each, and the battlepay wont leave my alliance /clan at all because they get the information before you can see it on deathsnacks. As soon as i say "battlepay is up"  it would be already gone and deathsnascks/ ingame updates with enough delay to get a lot of ppl on the rail.

 

Your system would offer more aggressive strategies for tacticians.And everyone would use them. I could drain my reserves, or nullify the opponents battlepay to prevent him from getting ppl on his side of the rail or force him to put up battlepay with higher ticket amouts and offer even higher battlepay with the same amount of tickets at the same time.

[MoonlightAngel]

i agreed

 

My solution: => you are simply too slow. Finish your missions in time.

Is this what you called Fair answer? lol that s ridiculous.

 My solution>> payment should have been pain when the one started mission. then returned it back to alliance when mission failed or host has disconnected. 

[REDHOOOD]

No offense, but my answer is not ignorant, it's the only fair answer.

 

 

 

Your answer was fair; but rude. 

[PandemicLegions]

i agreed

 

Is this what you called Fair answer? lol that s ridiculous.

 My solution>> payment should have been pain when the one started mission. then returned it back to alliance when mission failed or host has disconnected. 

 

And by doing so, you deny battle pay to fast, organized squads who joined the conflict after a slow pug squad gets promised pay simply because they joined sooner. 

 

The funny part? If implemented, even if the organized squad joined after the pug squad and finished before them, the pug squad would still be chosen for pay over them. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by PandemicLegions

[Fraank]

Is this what you called Fair answer? lol that s ridiculous.

 My solution>> payment should have been pain when the one started mission. then returned it back to alliance when mission failed or host has disconnected. 

please read what i wrote in Post #9 and #13 and don't skip everything except the last line.

 

It's not an alliance's/a clan's fault that there are players out there with better mods/warframes/gear/etc.  than someone else has.

The better the warframe/strategy/loadout/mods etc. the earlier you can finish a mission and the more likely you get paid.

It s not my fault as tactician if you are not in the right time at the right place. => finish your mission faster/earlier.

[REDHOOOD]

please read what i wrote in Post #9 and #13 and don't skip everything except the last line.

 

It's not an alliance's/a clan's fault that there are players out there with better mods/warframes/gear/etc.  than someone else has.

The better the warframe/strategy/loadout/mods etc. the earlier you can finish a mission and the more likely you get paid.

It s not my fault as tactician if you are not in the right time at the right place. => finish your mission faster/earlier.

 

I am truly surprised you talk to your mercs like this. These guys support and fight for you, and I beat them to a pulp for it - they do it for credits; but they help you none the less.

 

Let me translate your last statement in a friendlier way:

 

"Please reread my previous post. The current system rewards speed, not effort. As a tactician, the current system works for me. You are competing with other teams, so try to improve your speed- and you will get paid."

[DurganKael]

I am truly surprised you talk to your mercs like this. These guys support and fight for you, and I beat them to a pulp for it - they do it for credits; but they help you none the less.

 

Let me translate your last statement in a friendlier way:

 

"Please reread my previous post. The current system rewards speed, not effort. As a tactician, the current system works for me. You are competing with other teams, so try to improve your speed- and you will get paid."

And don't forget to have your HR department document that you had that discussion with them.

[REDHOOOD]

And don't forget to have your HR department document that you had that discussion with them.

 

sure

[Fraank]

I am truly surprised you talk to your mercs like this. These guys support and fight for you, and I beat them to a pulp for it - they do it for credits; but they help you none the less.

 

Let me translate your last statement in a friendlier way:

 

"Please reread my previous post. The current system rewards speed, not effort. As a tactician, the current system works for me. You are competing with other teams, so try to improve your speed- and you will get paid."

 

Alliance/Clan Mates, Developer, Pubs. It doesnt matter. all of them dont fight for me or another specific person, they fight for credits.Which means, they dont have to like me or someone else at all! They play warframe to have fun (not to like me).

*self-irony* Of course, i'm the incarnation of evil because *self-irony* I don't force anyone to play a mission for free against their own will, I pay people for doing something IF they want to.

 

Furthermore, Alliances/Clans don't have influence on how fast the reserves are gone. We dont know how many people are going to be on a rail at the same time. Sometimes 100 tickets are gone in 10 minutes and sometimes it takes 2 hours. Which means, someone is always late.

=> As long as you are fast enough, you get paid. (=>You 'll get the next battlepay if you wait long enough)

[RINGSNOW]

Your Funny. like you know my mercs

 

I am truly surprised you talk to your mercs like this. These guys support and fight for you, and I beat them to a pulp for it - they do it for credits; but they help you none the less.

 

Let me translate your last statement in a friendlier way:

 

"Please reread my previous post. The current system rewards speed, not effort. As a tactician, the current system works for me. You are competing with other teams, so try to improve your speed- and you will get paid."

 

It all about that base

 

You guys are doing a great job. I agree.  Up my post

Edited October 23, 2014 by RINGSNOW

[REDHOOOD]

Your Funny. like you know my mercs

 

 

It all about that base

 

You guys are doing a great job. I agree.  Up my post

 

You have your friends, and I have mine. I am also aware that when I fight some of your said Alpha teams *indicated in death snacks - cough cough*, no reinforcements can join and I get ganked 4v1. It seems very fishy.

 

no, I will not "up" your post.