Multi-Shot And Damage Falloff

[zoboso]

Currently multi-shot and damage falloff are linked through the primary shotguns and Brakk. I think that all weapons with multi-shot should have damage falloff dependent on the amount of bullets fired by the gun. 

 

The most interesting thing about this change is that on paper there is no DPS reduction, yet because that damage is restricted to closer range combat it gives that combat a risk reward dynamic. In addition is gives a reason for certain weapons to not use the multi-shot mods because the user wants to engage the enemy at longer ranges. 

 

tl;dr: I wanted to add a logical penalty to multi-shot to discourage players from using the same build on almost every gun.

[Lunamaniac]

I agree with your sentiment but disagree that your method is logical.

[Gahrzerkire]

NO NO NO NO LEAVE MY RIFLES ALONE THEY ALREADY DESTROYED MY SHOTGUNS PLEASE GOD NO.

[zoboso]

I agree with your sentiment but disagree that your method is logical.

 

In keeping with the discussion I hope to create will you please tell me where the logical fallacy is in my argument.

[Kruglov]

NO NO NO NO LEAVE MY RIFLES ALONE THEY ALREADY DESTROYED MY SHOTGUNS PLEASE GOD NO.

 

Yeah this.

 

Damage falloff is bad.

Period.

[zoboso]

NO NO NO NO LEAVE MY RIFLES ALONE THEY ALREADY DESTROYED MY SHOTGUNS PLEASE GOD NO.

 

have multi-shot: get damage falloff

no multi-shot: no damage falloff

 

if my suggestion is going to be implemented as is all you have to do to keep you rifles "undestroyed" is to remove multishot.

Edited November 21, 2014 by zoboso

[zoboso]

Yeah this.

 

Damage falloff is bad.

Period.

 

Incorrect, damage falloff is not bad. Damage falloff is a mechanic that is designed to encourage players to fight closer to their targets. I think it would be better to call damage falloff a close range damage bonus to remove the negative connotations from the mechanic. Unfortunately I did not choose the name.

[Lunamaniac]

In keeping with the discussion I hope to create will you please tell me where the logical fallacy is in my argument.

Finding a way to keep multi shot not being slapped on EVERY build is a good idea, however it just doesn't follow that multi shot be therefore tied to shotgun mechanics and add falloff based on the number of pellet.  I think a nightmare mod that acted the same way would be interesting, but just adding in this mechanic would widen the gap between weapons further and limit weapon variety.  Imagine how gimped snipers would be with this change.

[Nox-Lamina]

So I can't put multishot on my bows if I want to use them as bows. Taking a major hit to DPS in order to use longer ranged weapons without facing any undue penalty makes no sense. I can't see many people being in love with most guns having  falloff either.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[5H4DE]

If shotguns wouldnt have the dmg falloff there wouldve been no reason to use any other primary weapon you know...

[crafturtoemc]

Poop, what a bad changes.

[LtZefar]

If shotguns wouldnt have the dmg falloff there wouldve been no reason to use any other primary weapon you know...

uh no, that is just wrong.

Pellet spray will leave shotguns at a disadvantage on range. Unlike Soma which is dead accurate on range and full auto. Other weapons have their purpose. Shotguns will not replace them unless they make a really really good shotgun.

 

As for this topic. Please for love of god stop suggesting these silly nerfs. The game is in no need of them. If anything they should add more mods that allows you to actually chose what to use. Right now you really only go for one sort of build all the time. Nerfing one mod will only switch that one mod out.

[zoboso]

As for this topic. Please for love of god stop suggesting these silly nerfs. The game is in no need of them. If anything they should add more mods that allows you to actually chose what to use. Right now you really only go for one sort of build all the time. Nerfing one mod will only switch that one mod out.

 

while we both think that DE should encourage build diversity, and that this change will only encourage people to swap out multishot mods in the short term. I believe that any mods added by DE to create build diversity will either need to be overpowered in the situation they are designed for but weaker in others as a trade off, or to incorporate the aforementioned trade-offs into already existing mods to give players a choice whether the player wants to use a weapon optimized for close or longer ranges.

 

Everyone who has "sword alone" or used a primary shotgun should know that being restricted to close quarters combat is usually much more dangerous than being able to engage at any distance, this is to reinforce the shot gun as a close quarters tool due to preventing the player from using it's damage any other way, therefore making this change would hinder those who prefer close quarters combat less than those who would rather have the versatility of choosing the length of their engagement, and the lack of a choice between viable options is what caused you to suggest adding additional mods in the first place.

 

let me make one more additional thing clear multi-shot and raw damage mods like serration are overpowered and 'everyone' knows it, including DE. I think the only reason the mods are not already changed is that it would necessitate the rewriting of the enemy factions health tables, which would destabilize Warframe's core and secondary game-play to fix the failings of  it's tertiary game-play loop.

[Gahrzerkire]

have multi-shot: get damage falloff

no multi-shot: no damage falloff

 

if my suggestion is going to be implemented as is all you have to do to keep you rifles "undestroyed" is to remove multishot.

 

Dude I hate to break this to you, but bullets are bullets, and don't become weaker with distance, moreover the rate at which they slow down doesnt have a major effect until you hit several thousand feet.  Its a simple fact. The avarege bullet travels 1700 FPS (Feet per second) which means that in 2 seconds you have already exceeded the size of every room in Warframe.  Nerfing multi-shot damage at a distance will also only piss off everyone who enjoys the ability of playing end game. It does not need to be nerfed. It isn't broken. In fact you NEED split chamber without damage fall off to run some top tier missions, and you NEED the distance it allows. ( you need to be able to pick off enemies in a group so when they reach you they don't destroy you. ).

DO NOT suggest nerfing split chamber. it is a horrible idea. we have entire builds that are built around it. Nerfing split chamber would not only piss people off, but ruin core elements of the game.

[Sakatchi]

Cause sniper rifles are shotguns rite.

[Archistopheles]

if my suggestion is going to be implemented as is all you have to do to keep you rifles "undestroyed" is to remove half of their damage output.

Fixed for you so that you understand what you're saying.

[zoboso]

if my suggestion is going to be implemented as is all you have to do to keep you rifles "undestroyed" is to remove half of their damage output.

 

Fixed for you so that you understand what you're saying.

 

I do understand that is exactly what I am saying, and endgame is broken anyways. I believe that to increase build diversity, it is a necessary evil to incorporate a drawback into the core mods to bring them in line with the other mods. I simply chose to combine multi-shot with damage falloff because with primary shotguns both are already intertwined.

 

I find it interesting that this thread is filled such malice, as I didn't intend to take away any of your precious toys, because I wanted to change how that toy is used.

[Edgedemon]

the problem with your logic is that there is already very little maps where you can battle from afar and all rifles that trade precision or damage for fire will be severely hurt by such a change.

 

btw damage fall off is really a bad mechanic, since real bullets only suffer this from really long distances(an average assault rifle should be along 300 meters), that this game engine cant seem to handle

 

 

I do understand that is exactly what I am saying, and endgame is broken anyways. I believe that to increase build diversity, it is a necessary evil to incorporate a drawback into the core mods to bring them in line with the other mods. I simply chose to combine multi-shot with damage falloff because with primary shotguns both are already intertwined.

no they aren't and shot guns which are already heavily punished with fall off are the guns that need the most the multishots (notice their mod gets way above the others), with their already short range

[zoboso]

the problem with your logic is that there is already very little maps where you can battle from afar and all rifles that trade precision or damage for fire will be severely hurt by such a change.

 

This is the entire reason I am advocating this change, as most of the maps are close quarters and therefore the reward will outweigh the risks. However in the corner cases where the player wants to engage at a distance with multi-shot they are allowed to at a penalty. This in-game trade-off of whether to use multi-shot will make modding weapons a choice, albeit a limited and simple one.

 

 (notice their mod gets way above the others)

Pistols have more multi-shot increase by percent than all shotguns other than Hek with it's syndicate mod because pistols have Lethal Torrent and that Barrel Diffusion has the same multi-shot increase as Hell's Chamber.

[jrainbowfist]

This is the entire reason I am advocating this change, as most of the maps are close quarters and therefore the reward will outweigh the risks. However in the corner cases where the player wants to engage at a distance with multi-shot they are allowed to at a penalty. This in-game trade-off of whether to use multi-shot will make modding weapons a choice, albeit a limited and simple one.

 

Pistols have more multi-shot increase by percent than all shotguns other than Hek with it's syndicate mod because pistols have Lethal Torrent and that Barrel Diffusion has the same multi-shot increase as Hell's Chamber.

 

Well multi-shot increase for shotguns are still bigger due to the amount of bullets from a non-modded shotgun. 

 

And I know that there are a lot of mechanics in Warframe that might not quite make perfect sense, but making something like a sniper rifle, do less damage at long distances seems kinda weird. Especially for people like me who don't really like running into close quarters combat all the time.

 

Maybe it's this choose your own way to play idea, but I like the option of taking things slow with high-powered long range weaponry and cutting through large waves of enemies with a giant axe at the same time.

Edited November 25, 2014 by jrainbowfist

[zoboso]

Well multi-shot increase for shotguns are still bigger due to the amount of bullets from a non-modded shotgun. 

 

have to agree there because shotguns are defined in-game as having an innate multi-shot.

 

And I know that there are a lot of mechanics in Warframe that might not quite make perfect sense, but making something like a sniper rifle, do less damage at long distances seems kinda weird. Especially for people like me who don't really like running into close quarters combat all the time.

 

Maybe it's this choose your own way to play idea, but I like the option of taking things slow with high-powered long range weaponry and cutting through large waves of enemies with a giant axe at the same time.

 

Mods are the tool the player has to choose how they want to play, by changing the multi-shot mechanics to have a consistent drawback for its power. By giving each player a choice of which mods and weapons to use, you will still be able to use your high-powered long-range weaponry, those weapons will just be modded differently.

[akira_him]

Damage fall off should be removed from all primaries

Useless you have insane dps + tight spread like brakk

Getting close to enemies is suicide in this game

adding damage fall off to multishot bullets will actually nerf all guns in the game (maybe not mutanlist quanta)

particularly snipers and bows

btw Shotguns should be balanced by their spread, fire rate, and clip size, not fall off

Edited November 25, 2014 by akira_him

[Edgedemon]

This is the entire reason I am advocating this change, as most of the maps are close quarters and therefore the reward will outweigh the risks. However in the corner cases where the player wants to engage at a distance with multi-shot they are allowed to at a penalty. This in-game trade-off of whether to use multi-shot will make modding weapons a choice, albeit a limited and simple one.

so instead of a corrupted mod that benefits from close combat and penalizes long range, like Heavy Caliber but with Multi-shot, you propose to penalize an entire game play style for no real reward (as the ones going close already have multi shot and unless they are really bad should have easier shots too)

 

 

Pistols have more multi-shot increase by percent than all shotguns other than Hek with it's syndicate mod because pistols have Lethal Torrent and that Barrel Diffusion has the same multi-shot increase as Hell's Chamber.

multi-shot chance is per pellet giving you a sure 20 rounds a Drakgoon and 20% chance of up to 30 pellets, opposed to 1 + 90% of a second on rifles and, 2 sure rounds + 80% chance of a third one in most handguns, that is except for one handed shotguns which indeed benefit more but still have fall off.

[HollowExistence]

Fak dmg falloff. Irritating mechanics in games are just bad

[zoboso]

so instead of a corrupted mod that benefits from close combat and penalizes long range, like Heavy Caliber but with Multi-shot, you propose to penalize an entire game play style for no real reward (as the ones going close already have multi shot and unless they are really bad should have easier shots too)

 

Exactly, my goal is to penalize an entire play-style. The play-style in question is thinking there is one best load-out for every situation. Raw damage mods and multi-shot should be weakened in such a way to promote choice so that an educated player could decide to remove those mods to gain an edge in certain situations as that is the entire goal of the mod system.

 

multi-shot chance is per pellet giving you a sure 20 rounds a Drakgoon and 20% chance of up to 30 pellets, opposed to 1 + 90% of a second on rifles and, 2 sure rounds + 80% chance of a third one in most handguns, that is except for one handed shotguns which indeed benefit more but still have fall off.

I do not think that is how multi-shot works, from Wiki:

Pellets Fired = Base Pellet Count * (1 + Multishot)

For example, a Hek with 120% multishot will have the pellet count of 15.4. This means it will fire 15 pellet per shot with a 40% chance of firing a 16th pellet.