Balancing Sword & Sorcery In Warframe, A Suggestion.

[neKroMancer]

There are many interesting problems in Warframe concerning Weapon/Power/Frame speed and other attributes. CD vs Energy system, heavy frames are too slow, Hek is out of balance/charge melee is dominating the field, etc. However, very little attention has been invested in creating a solution that has potential to solve these problems.

 

Warframe needs a meaningful choices in customization. Mod capacity is a good start but quite unsatisfying since powerplay requires heavy investment in both grinding and sacrificing mod slots that could be used for higher agility and durability while shooter requires considerably less investment in both grind and mod slots since the main source of DPS is coming from the weapons. 

 

Heavy frames are largely at disadvantage due to movement speed (max rush doesn't help much, really). Lighter frames can equip Hek and other high DPS weapons and run ahead of these heavies, obliterate the entire tile before heavies reach the door. With all their impressive defensive tools, they don't have to use it since there's nothing left to defense against.

 

CD vs energy system has been discussed to death many times. One problem with energy mechanic is the inconsistency of energy drop due to RNG. CD comes with it's own problem - noticeably slower gameplay. Both have merit but combining them was done before and DE Steve stated that it's confusing so I doubt that we will see a hybrid system.  

 

Proposing a way to balancing these issues at the same time is going to get me a lot of downvotes. I don't mind that. Let's get to the proposal.

 

My proposal involve two mechanics, one old, one new.

1. Weight and carrying capacity mechanic.

2. Energy vampire.(EV)

 

Give all frames passive energy vampire ability and specific carrying capacity for each type of frame (heavy/normal/light from amount of armor and movement speed). Weapons will have to more values attached to them - weight and energy vampire multiplier. Keep the energy system but get rid of the blue orb.

 

How this would work?

 

Carrying capacity will be tied to two attributes : Movement speed and passive EV. The more weight you carry, the less these two attributes will be. However, the less weight you carry, the better both of these stats will be. Weight is calculated from your entire loadout, long gun/pistol/melee. Heavies will have higher weight capacity.

 

Each weapon will have specific multiplier to EV and weight as stated above. Higher DPS weapons will generally have more weight and less EV multiplier to balance the sheer DPS it can deliver.

 

To clarify, I don't propose a limitation against lighter frames. They can equip more than one heavy weapons but they will have lower movement speed and lower base passive EV.

 

Base EV and multiplier from weapon - right now energy vampire (EV) probably calculated from damage dealt. If we use it in the current form, the heavy weapon will be king of weapon without a doubt since higher DPS = higher energy gain. Base EV and multiplier is a way to solve this issue. 

 

Example - base EV for Excalibur is 0.25 which means every 100 damage with weapon with 1 multiplier, Excal should gain 25 energy. The multiplier kicks in - supposedly a braton with 2 EV multiplier : when using Braton, Excal gains 25 energy every 50 damage dealt. Hek, on the other hand, has 0.5 multipler : when using Hek, Excal gains 25 energy for every 125 damage.  

 

What will this proposal do to the game?

 

1. Create powerplay into a true alternative to gun/melee.

2. Create a more steady flow of energy while keeping generally fast pace of combat. 

3. Balance light/heavy frame performance.

 

 

I'll give you an example :

 

1. Light frame with light weapon loadout. 

- The carrying capacity is balanced. The player will be able to move at fast speed and cast often. However, the DPS output from weapon will be lowered. Making his frame relies more on casting since base EV on frame will be moderate while EV multiplier on weapon will allow the frame to cast often.

 

2. Light frame with heavy loadout.

- The frame now carry more than it should. It resulted in slower movement and lower than average base EV value. However, DPS from weapon will compensate the loss of speed and less frequent power casting.

 

3. Heavy frame with light loadout.

- Faster movement speed and base EV but less DPS from weapon. Allowing heavy frame to charge into combat and using all his powers for the team but will be restricted in term of damage.

 

4. Heavy frame with heavy loadout.

- slow movement speed (turtle, most likely) and low EV value. Creating a slow-moving death machine that is capable of dealing high DPS but cast less often.

 

IMO, average loadout for light frame should be roughly 1 heavy weapon (Hek/Gorgon/Two-handed melee) and two light weapons (single pistol, single-handed sword, daggers). Average loadout for heavy frame should be two heavy weapons and one light weapon.

 

It's not perfect, it doesn't involve or consider the useless powers. 

Though, opinion, suggestion, and downvotes are welcome.

 

 

[Oz270]

The carry weight idea seems really solid, it will bring more choices to the game.

Unfortunately I'd foresee people playing in the same style since some warframes are not damage orientated.
If DE release more warframe ability mod cards then this idea would be great since people could choose what build or play style they want.

[KageNoShini]

I like this idea, although it seems like if you play a heavy frame with a heavy weap (Hek/gorgon) and a heavy melee, you would be to slow to do keep up with a caster style frame loaded for casting, which can be quite devastating, and still end up being left out and unable to use their weapons, but in all reality, I would like it if this got implemented, i would use some of the 1st tier skills way more, like shuriken or shock, and probably allow volt's description of alternative to gun-play to be true.

[neKroMancer]

I like this idea, although it seems like if you play a heavy frame with a heavy weap (Hek/gorgon) and a heavy melee, you would be to slow to do keep up with a caster style frame loaded for casting, which can be quite devastating, and still end up being left out and unable to use their weapons, but in all reality, I would like it if this got implemented, i would use some of the 1st tier skills way more, like shuriken or shock, and probably allow volt's description of alternative to gun-play to be true.

 

True, that's my intention to make player 'choose' with consequence. with this idea, you can play Loki with Hek/Scindo combo and run as fast as Rhino or play Rhino with Hek/skana and run as fast as Excalibur.

[Story4]

 

 

I kinda like your ideea, but i disagree that a heavy warframe should have more carrying capacity. I think that your warframe speed should be based on your load-out, if you get heavy weapons with higher dps you move slower and if you have light weapons you move faster. Heavy warframes already have more HP and shields. Lighter warframes should just get a bonus to speed, maybe 10%. 

EV ideea IMO is good nothing to comment.

If i may add a new ammo ideea to capacity? the ability to carry more ammo but have a speed handicap i think would be pretty good.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Story4

[Tsukinoki]

The only issue with the EV is say a light warframe with a fully modded for damage hek charges ahead and starts getting a majority of the damage/kills.  In the system you are proposing, depending on how good/fast the other players are once they start to fall behind it would become more difficult for them to keep up.  What you would see is that one or two players would start to lead on damage done/kills done and be able to use their powers a lot while the other players wont because they aren't able to deal damage fast enough.

While the EV being based on weapons would help a bit, it would only help if there are still a sizable number of enemies.  I have seen rushers with a Hek before clearing the map and not leaving much in the way to fight except one or two stragglers that spawned late.  While your system has some promise I think that linking the EV to damage done wouldnt work.

In too many games i have seen one or two people take up to 70% of the total damage dealt, leaving the others to split the remaining 30%.  Those other players would be able to use less powers than they are with the current system and I can see how they could get upset with that.

[Story4]

In too many games i have seen one or two people take up to 70% of the total damage dealt, leaving the others to split the remaining 30%.  Those other players would be able to use less powers than they are with the current system and I can see how they could get upset with that.

Cooldown FTW

[neKroMancer]

I kinda like your ideea, but i disagree that a heavy warframe should have more carrying capacity. I think that your warframe speed should be based on your load-out, if you get heavy weapons with higher dps you move slower and if you have light weapons you move faster. Heavy warframes already have more HP and shields. Lighter warframes should just get a bonus to speed, maybe 10%. 

EV ideea IMO is good nothing to comment.

If i may add a new ammo ideea to capacity? the ability to carry more ammo but have a speed handicap i think would be pretty good.

Thank you for your suggestion.

Imo, heavy frames already have higher health/shield/armor. They have lower movement speed to compensate that. It's balance issue since they need some kinds of con to actually balancing out the pro (not a good one, obviously). Lighter frames obviously have the benefit of speed and agility which is a defining feature.

I decided to give them higher carrying capacity in order to give them benefit - carrying heavy weapon with less effect on speed. In this model, A Rhino carries a Hek with Lato and Fang should be able to keep up with Excalibur in term of speed. On the contrary, Loki with the same loadout probably going to get a bit slower than usual, but not much.

I could be wrong though but I think it's the characteristic of generic heavy character.

About the ammo, I didn't delve into it because it's a lot more complicate than it should. Will Snipertron/Paris be considered light because of the amount of ammo? Should Braton be considered as heavy? It's more realistic but it also cause a lot of issue.

[neKroMancer]

The only issue with the EV is say a light warframe with a fully modded for damage hek charges ahead and starts getting a majority of the damage/kills.  In the system you are proposing, depending on how good/fast the other players are once they start to fall behind it would become more difficult for them to keep up.  What you would see is that one or two players would start to lead on damage done/kills done and be able to use their powers a lot while the other players wont because they aren't able to deal damage fast enough.

While the EV being based on weapons would help a bit, it would only help if there are still a sizable number of enemies.  I have seen rushers with a Hek before clearing the map and not leaving much in the way to fight except one or two stragglers that spawned late.  While your system has some promise I think that linking the EV to damage done wouldnt work.

In too many games i have seen one or two people take up to 70% of the total damage dealt, leaving the others to split the remaining 30%.  Those other players would be able to use less powers than they are with the current system and I can see how they could get upset with that.

I think the main culprit is the Hek itself. A horribly unbalance weapon even after DE tried to limit the clipsize. However, the EV could be weighted for even less multiplier. I think we might see another nerf for Hek in future update. A OHK weapon shouldn't have more than one ammo per clip anyway. Something similar to ME3MP Claymore would be better, imo.

[Tsukinoki]

Cooldown FTW

Lets please not get into cooldowns as this system holds far more promise than CDs do.  Especially when you consider that if you make the CDs long enough that abilities cant just be spammed endlessly that you'll have everyone stopping and waiting outside of every single room for their CDs to refresh.  Now think how much longer each mission would be because of that.

[Anelyn]

Am not sure what your problem is. You want to play the game in Co-Op and have fun, DO IT WITH FRIENDS / CLAN BUDDIES.

 

You can't expect (it does happen on rare occasions tho) random peeps who join a boss farm, ? alert, or whatever mission, to kill cameras, place markers on resources / mods, wait with elevator, run back to ress, or play for team. Most of them don't even respond to greetings in chat at start of mission. Nobody, including DE, can change that. Is their freedom, lack of knowledge, or lack of caring about co-op part of game. It's their choice on how to play. There are no rules about that.

 

Find players with same mind set as yours, who like to play the game the way you do (they are out there, trust me).

And to really touch on your slow aspect of heavier frames. There is no such thing. Move like a ninja stop running on ground level. My Frost beats any frame in movement because I use the terrain to my advantage. (mind if I'd be on Loki doing same thing, I'd be faster obviously).

 

Regarding EV. No thank you, the game is perfectly fine and balanced the way it is with current energy system. I never have a problem using any ability at any time I seem fit for it. There is no such thing as "I MUST SAVE ALL ENERGY TO CAST UBER IN NEXT ROOM", that's a player mentality problem, not a warframe energy system one.

[Story4]

Thank you for your suggestion.

Imo, heavy frames already have higher health/shield/armor. They have lower movement speed to compensate that. It's balance issue since they need some kinds of con to actually balancing out the pro (not a good one, obviously). Lighter frames obviously have the benefit of speed and agility which is a defining feature.

I decided to give them higher carrying capacity in order to give them benefit - carrying heavy weapon with less effect on speed. In this model, A Rhino carries a Hek with Lato and Fang should be able to keep up with Excalibur in term of speed. On the contrary, Loki with the same loadout probably going to get a bit slower than usual, but not much.

I could be wrong though but I think it's the characteristic of generic heavy character.

About the ammo, I didn't delve into it because it's a lot more complicate than it should. Will Snipertron/Paris be considered light because of the amount of ammo? Should Braton be considered as heavy? It's more realistic but it also cause a lot of issue.

Well what do you consider heavy and what do you consider light? In your model, let's say that both Excalibutt and Rhino have the same loadout, but it is a light loadout, let's say braton and lato being the lightest weapons. Then Excalibutt and Rhino will have the same speed because they run at the limit and they can't go faster, but Rhino has the advantage of having higher shields and HP. If every warframe had the same capacity, but lighter warframes just had a 10% higher speed, then with a light load-out, rhino will be slower than excalibutt but not by much, and if excalibutt decides to pack a twin vipers then they will have about the same speed.

 

Yeah ammo i don't think that it would be hard to implement, you just need to be able to add more ammo in the remaining carying space if you want to go all heavy.

[Tsukinoki]

I think the main culprit is the Hek itself. A horribly unbalance weapon even after DE tried to limit the clipsize. However, the EV could be weighted for even less multiplier. I think we might see another nerf for Hek in future update. A OHK weapon shouldn't have more than one ammo per clip anyway. Something similar to ME3MP Claymore would be better, imo.

I was just using the hek as an example because there are a few weapons that if two members of your team are using them then it can be more difficult to get damage in.  Such as two people with damage modded akboltos or gorgons.

Im just trying to point out various points of potential contention within this system, such as should abilities generate energy for the damage they do?  The answer should be obvious but I know a few people who would complain that they should.  Also, would an ability like loki's invisibility affect his EV while it was active or not?  How about his decoy?  How about Rhino's iron skin or Trinities Link.

Also what would you replace Trinities energy vampire skill with?

Would EV be capped at a certain amount per hit?  The reason I bring this up is that a high powered pistol + 100% multishot means that they could be hitting for over 200 damage per trigger pull, and depending on the base EV of the frame that could be a decent amount of energy regained per shot leading to too much ability spam.

Im not trying to rag on this idea or bring up stupid questions, but just bring up things that definately need some consideration.

[Loswaith]

This has some merit though like other have mentioned the more damage you do the more energy you get so the more damage you can do.

 

Haps have a base energy regeneration for each suit, this increases for being a light loadout and decreses for a heavy one.

 

IE: if Excalibur has a base regen of 20 energy per minute, a heavy load out may mean the regen is 15 per minute, and a light loadout may make that 25 per minute.

[Story4]

Lets please not get into cooldowns as this system holds far more promise than CDs do.  Especially when you consider that if you make the CDs long enough that abilities cant just be spammed endlessly that you'll have everyone stopping and waiting outside of every single room for their CDs to refresh.  Now think how much longer each mission would be because of that.

Opinions and counter-opinions, IMO energy is just as problematic because you have guys running behind trying to get the blue orbs or just waiting a little for energy siphon to recharge so that you can have your energy at full. It's a matter of taste i believe, you have a system like it is now where you spam only 1 ability (like Nyx chaos, Rhino Iron Skin), compared to a system where you spam all your abilites 1 by 1 except your ult if it is on high CD(but it should be more powerfull).

Edited April 26, 2013 by Story4

[Anelyn]

It's not even a problem with the guns.

 

Several warframes modded right have the option to run ahead and obliterate any mobs / elites before the rest of group even gets to said location.

 

I can do that on Saryn, on Frost (yes on frost), on Ash, on Loki, on Banshee. I don't need any guns to do this. 

 

Let me go in detail: rush & marathon on each frame, max streamline and flow.

 

Saryn: run ahead, drop moult, Miasma, collect energy orbs, continue.

 

Frost: run ahead (if you don't know how to speed up with frost, you need to think like a ninja and stop running on ground level), snowglobe, melee murder or Avalanche. Ice Wave if non armored mobs. Collect orbs, continue.

 

Ash: smoke bomb + teleport + bladestorm (if needed, vs enemies who spread out a lot), collect orbs, continue.

 

Loki: Decoy to attract nearby mobs to keep party busy, run ahead invisi killing everything. EVERYTHING.

 

Banshee: spots where you can AoE entire areas (levels above and below), rush ahead reading map layout, detonate Sonic Quake, collect orbs, continue.

 

Not a single shot fired.

 

So once again, the problem is not with the guns, or with the speed of other frames, or with their abilities. Find peeps to make friends with and play with them.

[neKroMancer]

I was just using the hek as an example because there are a few weapons that if two members of your team are using them then it can be more difficult to get damage in.  Such as two people with damage modded akboltos or gorgons.

Im just trying to point out various points of potential contention within this system, such as should abilities generate energy for the damage they do?  The answer should be obvious but I know a few people who would complain that they should.  Also, would an ability like loki's invisibility affect his EV while it was active or not?  How about his decoy?  How about Rhino's iron skin or Trinities Link.

Also what would you replace Trinities energy vampire skill with?

Would EV be capped at a certain amount per hit?  The reason I bring this up is that a high powered pistol + 100% multishot means that they could be hitting for over 200 damage per trigger pull, and depending on the base EV of the frame that could be a decent amount of energy regained per shot leading to too much ability spam.

Im not trying to rag on this idea or bring up stupid questions, but just bring up things that definately need some consideration.

 

I considered your points. Sorry for the late apply.

 

1. As for the top-tier weapons (Hek, Gorgon, Akabolto) - I think we should look into the actual EV multiplier, it can be lowered to balance the issue. Furthermore, these weapons should be considered 'heavy' (Akimbo weapons should be twice the weight of the regular ones anyway, realistically speaking) which will also lower frame movement speed and base EV value. Modding created potential problem, as you stated, which is true. Perhaps EV multiplier should be tied to mod capacity used?

 

Weapon receive passive upgrade in EV. However, mod capacity spent will reduce the EV multiplier. Potatoed weapon simply got reduction in EV in half-rate compared to non-poatoted weapon. Hard cap at lowest value.

IE. Akabolto has EV at 0.2 at lv1 and 1.2 at lv30. However, If you spent all 30 points you will have Akabolto's(30) EV reduction into 0.5. 

 

2. Ability that generate damage or create invulnerability (Rhino skin, Frame under effect of Snowglobe, Invisibility, Smokescreen) effect should void the EV effect during the duration. However, buff power (Saryn's contagion) should not be affect by this. Decoy and Moult should not considered as 'void' imo because they don't deal damage or create invulnerability.

 

3. Energy vampire for Trinity will enhance the effect of EV. Creating a situation where frame can spam power (which it already been doing).

 

4. I believe high-powered single shot weapon (Lex/Snipertron/Hek) should have low EV multiplier. Probably be better if you fire perhgaps 1.5 clip  and gain 25 energy (if you don't miss). The high firerate weapon(Twin viper) probably be best if it also has low to moderate EV since each shot deals less damage but firerate already compensate that. Combined with the above mentioned Ev reduction when spending mod point - you will have a caster version of every weapon in the game. Lower damage but high energy gain version.

 

I think that DE already have a plan to release mod with similar function (energy regen when dealing/receiving damage) from the recent post. I doubt that it'll be hard to implement this.

[neKroMancer]

This has some merit though like other have mentioned the more damage you do the more energy you get so the more damage you can do.

 

Haps have a base energy regeneration for each suit, this increases for being a light loadout and decreses for a heavy one.

 

IE: if Excalibur has a base regen of 20 energy per minute, a heavy load out may mean the regen is 15 per minute, and a light loadout may make that 25 per minute.

 

Energy regeneration creates the same problem with CD system. It rewards waiting and slow the pace of the game down.

[neKroMancer]

It's not even a problem with the guns.

 

Several warframes modded right have the option to run ahead and obliterate any mobs / elites before the rest of group even gets to said location.

 

I can do that on Saryn, on Frost (yes on frost), on Ash, on Loki, on Banshee. I don't need any guns to do this. 

 

Let me go in detail: rush & marathon on each frame, max streamline and flow.

 

Saryn: run ahead, drop moult, Miasma, collect energy orbs, continue.

 

Frost: run ahead (if you don't know how to speed up with frost, you need to think like a ninja and stop running on ground level), snowglobe, melee murder or Avalanche. Ice Wave if non armored mobs. Collect orbs, continue.

 

Ash: smoke bomb + teleport + bladestorm (if needed, vs enemies who spread out a lot), collect orbs, continue.

 

Loki: Decoy to attract nearby mobs to keep party busy, run ahead invisi killing everything. EVERYTHING.

 

Banshee: spots where you can AoE entire areas (levels above and below), rush ahead reading map layout, detonate Sonic Quake, collect orbs, continue.

 

Not a single shot fired.

 

So once again, the problem is not with the guns, or with the speed of other frames, or with their abilities. Find peeps to make friends with and play with them.

 

I used all of that but find it simply unreliable due to the RNG nature of orb drop. Furthermore, there is problem with unproportionate investment.

 

The current problem comes from the fact that 'shooter' build has better DPS/mobility/durability than 'caster'.

-  Caster/10 mod slots : 4 Ability, 1 Streamline(rare), 1 Flow(rare), 1 Focus(rare), 1 Rush, 1 Marathon, +/- Continuity (rare) if you play Rhino.

-  Shooter/10 mod slots : 4 Ability, 1 Redirection(common), 1 Vitality(common), 1 Fast deflection(uncommon), 1 Rush, 1 Marathon, +/- Quickrest

 

Does the investment in both category balance in term of outcome?

- No. Damage from power simply doesn't scale well in higher level compared to weapon damage. You can't spam 25 energy power like a shotgun and hope that it will kill, or at least almost kill the target. That means the 'caster' playstyle as an alternative gameplay simply doesn't exist in higher level. My Akabolto and Hek can effectively kill everything at any range, why should I cast anything?