Hek's Falloff Tested - Description Change Necessary

[Deimion]

 

One should assume it would look more like this judging how your typical VIDYASHOOTGUHN works:

 

5m = 51 damage

10m = 51 damage

15m = 25 damage

20m = 25 damage

30m = 12 damage

35m = 12 damage

40m = 6 damage

 

Still effective at mid range, but still excels at close range the best, long range being completely out of the picture.

 

It ain't rocket science.

 

I agree with this base set of values more but varied for each shotgun range type: bronco and boar sharper fallout, strun with base numbers and HEK with a broader fallout. With what it is now, you might as well use a sword.

[Tekkaman-Blade]

At this point why not use a bronco and use some other primary? Bronco spread already makes it inefficient at long ranges and it hits almost as hard as the hek up close.

[Deimion]

At this point why not use a bronco and use some other primary? Bronco spread already makes it inefficient at long ranges and it hits almost as hard as the hek up close.

Because people have already put effort into a HEK for it's power and range and don't want to be that close to do major damage.

 

Are all ranged weapons going to get fallout effect now or just the weapon that took level 4 mastery to aquire?

[Qeveren]

Yeah, for a Mastery 4 weapon I'm not really feeling it with the Hek anymore.  No ammo, no stagger, no range. XD

[Story4]

I posted it in another topic, but why don't they make the Hek have a little bigger spread and more pellets, but no fall-off damage? At longer range less pellets would hit so it would result in less damage.

[Archistopheles]

If 3m is the maximum range of a melee weapon and >50m is considered long range according to DE then the ranges for short and medium distance should be half of the distance between the end of melee and the beginning of long range or in other words short range = 3m-23.5m and medium range should be 23.5-50m.

 

 

Unless you break it down as Medium range having the largest span.

 

I would say short range is 0-15m, medium range is 16-45m and long range is 46m+

 

But then again, what the hell do I know?

[HvcTerr]

Seriously? Bwhahaha, what a terribly executed patch this is.

Not compared to the state of the multiplayer game industry in general, though.

Edited April 27, 2013 by HvcTerr

[Tyrian3k]

Considering that the Hek is essentially the only shotgun that was overpowered to begin with, I'd say that DE should drop the whole damage falloff crap and give the Hek a reasonable nerf.

[Spellcasterz]

Mods actually can compromise testing if they are proc based(like multishot I suppose),though I hope none of those were used.

That aside,nice work.

[Liminal]

Multishot is not a probability, it's a set value actually. 50% means every other shot comes out double. 120% means every fifth shot comes out triple.

[Zwoop]

Multishot mods work differently for the shotguns, including the Bronco. All shotguns get a constant increase in number of pellets, so even that wouldn't throw off this test.

[Aerensiniac]

Well that de-escalated quickly...

 

what I envisioned a proper balance would entail would be:

 

5m = 51 damage

10m = 51 damage

15m = 40 damage

20m = 30 damage

25m = 20 damage

30m = 10 damage

35m = 7 damage

40m = 7 damage

 

That seems more reasonable if you ask me

 

Pretty much this.

My ****up senses are tingling DE. I hope you dont intend to kill your game with constant random **** nerfing, like planetside 2 did.

Those guys are epic, they managed to go from 39k peak to 5k players. Despite the fact that we are in a beta period, it might be a good idea to know your expectations towards a weapon before you implement it.

Nerfing already existing equipment is NEVER appreciated by the player base. Just saying.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Brane_Ded]

If you want to know, I did use the multi-shot mod however mine is set at exactly 100% and for a reason.  For every pellet one I shoot, I get a second pellet for free guaranteed.  This means for every pull of the Hek's trigger I shoot 14 pellets instead of 7 and I get a much better average of damage since not every pellet hits for the exact same damage (though most do).  This makes it far easier to tell which ones were headshots, which ones hit joints for extra damage, and which ones hit the armored body and I can use where I know I aimed to tell the difference and acquire the correct damage numbers to ensure that I do not get erroneous answers.

 

*Edit*
Since I see some suggestions of what players feel the nerf "should" have been I'll post my opinion on the matter.  If we have essentially three primary shotguns (Strun, Boar, Hek) and each one has it's niche to fill, then the "falloff" needs to be specific to each shotgun.  A one-size-fits-all will not work for all three.  Their falloff ranges should match their descriptions.

 

The Strun is the entry level, standard shotgun.  It has no specification that it can reach out to medium range effectively, nor does it state that it is strictly short range as the other two mention in their descriptions.  Thus it can be assumed that it has aspects of both the Boar's short range and the Hek's medium range.  So it should not see any damage falloff until it reaches the beginning of medium range or 23.5m (still under the assumption of DE's appropriate range limits) as it should be effective within both ranges.

 

The Boar makes a specific note that is works best at short range, thus it's limitation should be that it's starts to see at least 50% damage falloff by the time it reaches the beginning of medium range however it should still be able to push out full damage well into the halfway mark of short range or at least 11m if not out to 15m if it is to be effective.  (By the numbers in the OP, it will have already lost at least 70% of it's damage well before 15m if the falloff ratio is currently the same for all three shotguns.)

 

The Hek's description makes a very clear note that it A) is powerful, B) has a tight spread, and C) is efficient at medium range.  Thus it should never lose any damage before reaching medium range and should still be able to push full damage to at least halfway through the medium range or 37m before seeing any damage falloff if it is to be efficient.  By the time it reaches long range (50m) is where it should no longer be efficient to use for killing.

 

These are the ranges and approximate damage percentages I would use for each shotgun per their descriptions:

 

Strun

10m = 100% 

20m = 100%

25m = 100%

30m = 50%

40m = 1%

50m = 1%

 

Boar

10m = 100%

15m = 100%

20m = 50%

30m = 1%

40m = 1%

50m = 1%

 

Hek

10m = 100%

20m = 100%

30m = 100%

40m = 100%

45m = 50%

50m = 1%

 

Edited April 28, 2013 by Brane_Ded

[ArSo]

can you make a screeshot of the hallway and mark each distance?

[Brane_Ded]

can you make a screeshot of the hallway and mark each distance?

 

This is the hallway.  From the doorway I am standing in to the door at the end of the hall is 49m as noted by the waypoint. If the door at the end of the hall was open it would be 50m from threshold to threshold (apparently a door is 1m thick in Warframe).  I marked the threshold of the two middle archways and the beginning of the door at the end of the hall with the range the waypoint function gave me at those points.

 

This hallway worked best because of its natural 50m distance and the waypoints did not halt at the doorways thus I was able to get up to 50m ranges. I did not add that range to the list since I'm pretty sure everyone saw the pattern by the 25m mark.

 

It's fairly easy to test using the waypoint function by placing a waypoint at the feet of the npc you intend you shoot once the npc chooses a spot to stop and shoot from.  Merely adjust your position backwards or forwards accordingly until you reach the range at which you want to fire from the waypoint and record the numbers.  This hallway allows any range up to 50m using that function.

 

 

 

*Edit* Fixed image not appearing.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Brane_Ded

[SorainRavenshaw]

You get an up-vote from me for using solid methodology coupled with effort. SCIENCE!

Indeed. I up voted this as well. Solid numbers are GOOD. Take a note of that please DE, solid public crit numbers in new UI would do a WORLD of good.

That being said,I have a Hek BP sitting in my inventory right now. I'm going to test my Strun for playablity before I throw the Alloy Plate into making the Hek.

If indeed,  I find the falloff to be too much, I won't bother making a Hek until it is changed. I am in a similar position on getting a Gorgon. I had just now gotten into the credit and resource position to acquire and start using them. Now I am hesitant to lay down the resources at all, weapon un used. A friend of mine I played with swore by the Gorgon because "It's useful without having to spin it all the way up, but I know I can when the feth hits the fan."

[Deost]

Indeed. I up voted this as well. Solid numbers are GOOD. Take a note of that please DE, solid public crit numbers in new UI would do a WORLD of good.

That being said,I have a Hek BP sitting in my inventory right now. I'm going to test my Strun for playablity before I throw the Alloy Plate into making the Hek.

If indeed,  I find the falloff to be too much, I won't bother making a Hek until it is changed. I am in a similar position on getting a Gorgon. I had just now gotten into the credit and resource position to acquire and start using them. Now I am hesitant to lay down the resources at all, weapon un used. A friend of mine I played with swore by the Gorgon because "It's useful without having to spin it all the way up, but I know I can when the feth hits the fan."

 

Yeah the Gorgon used to be a pretty good assault rifle + LMG all in one system. Mainly because the tap-fire was as accurate as a Latron could be (just albeit slightly off..). I'm not sure how bad the Gorgon nerf was but I get the feeling that it won't be as accurate anymore.

 

Which is a pity. It's a good gun. The Latron? It's all right. It's zoom seems to be more then most weapons. But I don't have hard data to back up that. Just a feeling it zooms in slightly more.

 

Though it's damage is kinda meh at higher levels.

 

I think they're trying to make each weapon worth something instead of three being worth making and the rest just useful in mastery points only.

 

Only problem is that nerfing one to make a different one better isn't really making it better..

[LuckyStr_ke]

well i knew they had to change the bability to snipe with the hek, it was fun first but i got bored from it anyway. i love midrangeshooting, thats why i crafted myself a HEK, thx for making my midrangeshotgun closerange.... where i wield my swords and skills.

 

where is the fix-fix

[LuckyStr_ke]

and those who complained about the HEK for beeing too strong....   it is the only @(*()$ "highlvl" weapon, it neeeds to be the best on midrange. Pick a game you want and tell me lvl 4 weapons there are worse then lvl 1....

[Rokushiki]

really? it's a shotgun, it's not supposed to be a medium-long range weapon. i'm still breezing through all my missions with the hek, gaining most kills and/or most damage most of the time. there's nothing wrong with the Hek, it's just your play style. use it for what it's supposed to be: a short ranged weapon.

 

here's my build with this: rank 4 point blank, flechette, and hell's chamber. level 40 grineer elites die in 4 or 5 shots while infested ancients die around 5-8 shots, depending if i hit their weak spot. everything else will die in 1. shotguns IMO should be high-risk high-reward type weapons.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Rokushiki

[Amistyrja]

really? it's a shotgun, it's not supposed to be a medium-long range weapon. i'm still breezing through all my missions with the hek, gaining most kills and/or most damage most of the time. there's nothing wrong with the Hek, it's just your play style. use it for what it's supposed to be: a short ranged weapon.

The Hek was also meant for medium-range combat.

[Brane_Ded]

It was also brought to my attention by another player that both the Strun and the Hek had their damage stealth nerfed as well.
Strun: Used to be 140, now 130 damage.
Hek, Used to be 147, now 140 damage.

 

I did some digging around the wiki and found that the damage nerf change coincided with April 9th meaning they slipped those changes in with a patch somewhere between 7.6.0 and 7.7.2 without anyone noticing the change until April 9th.

 

Update 7.6.0: April 1st

Update 7.7.0: April 3rd

Update 7.7.1: April 4th

Update 7.7.2: April 5th

Update 7.7.3: April 12th