Why Cod Is Bad, The Myth Of "shotgun Sniping", And Can We Love The Gorgon Again?

[Krilion]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning_machine_gun

 

Gorgon prepatch = The M2 Machine Gun or Browning .50 Caliber Machine Gun.

 

Background on the Ma Deuce.

M2 as a sniper rifle

The M2 machine gun has also been used as a long-range sniper rifle, when equipped with a telescopic sight. Soldiers during the Korean War used scoped M2s in the role of a sniper rifle, but the practice was most notably used by US Marine Corps sniper Carlos Hathcock during the Vietnam War. Using an Unertl telescopic sight and a mounting bracket of his own design, Hathcock could quickly convert the M2 into a sniper rifle, using the traversing-and-elevating (T&E) mechanism attached to the tripod and a bolt on pistol grip kit that converts the M2 to fire semi-automatically by activating the trigger on the side plate to assist in aiming at stationary targets.^{[citation needed]} When firing semi-automatically, Hathcock hit man-size targets beyond 2000 yards—twice the range of a standard-caliber sniper rifle of the time (a .30-06 Winchester Model 70). In fact, Hathcock set the record for the longest confirmed kill at 2,460 yards or 1.3 miles (2,250 m), a record which stood until 2002.

 

Gorgon post patch? = The Chauchat. The worst machine gun in history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat

TIL that you can snipe with HMG at ranges well beyond standard rifles. Awesome.

[MoonicusMaximus]

The HEK is used so wide-spread because it was such an efficient killer, yes, but likely only because it was their "big boy gun" that they used for farming mods and resources from the more difficult planetary chains. Why? So they could accrue better, more varied mods, and use the foundry to make new weapons for them to use. See how that works? How not nerfing a perfectly killtastic weapon doesn't, in the slightest, ultimately limit people to how many weapons they'll end up using and leveling up? How that completely invalidates your point?

 

New weapons for them to level up for the mastery and ditch in favor of the Hek if they actually want to be serious would have been more accurate. There was zero reason to get any weapon beyond the Hek prior to this patch. It was largely renowned as the best gun in the game, because it had the damage of a point-blank shotgun blast, at distances that trumped rifles, at the cost of a single shotgun shell.

 

Removing the broken, overpowered weapon now means that players will have to branch out and choose other weapons, now that the clearly established "best gun in the game" has now been fixed. If nothing else, pre-patch Hek WAS the limit; you either had it and abused its broken strength, or you fiddled around with guns inferior to it until you wanted to do REAL higher-level content, at which point you immediately switched back to your Hek. THAT was limitation. Being encouraged to use other weapons now that the Hek isn't the be-all-end-all gun isn't a limitation.

[ChaosBloodterfly]

TIL that you can snipe with HMG at ranges well beyond standard rifles. Awesome.

 

Basic physics. .50>.308 Goes farther. That said, there are those sniper rifles that take .50BMG rounds. Nobody uses them because they're overkill. And tend to accidentally kill hostages because they keep going after the first person.

[MJ12]

New weapons for them to level up for the mastery and ditch in favor of the Hek if they actually want to be serious would have been more accurate. There was zero reason to get any weapon beyond the Hek prior to this patch. It was largely renowned as the best gun in the game, because it had the damage of a point-blank shotgun blast, at distances that trumped rifles, at the cost of a single shotgun shell.

 

Removing the broken, overpowered weapon now means that players will have to branch out and choose other weapons, now that the clearly established "best gun in the game" has now been fixed. If nothing else, pre-patch Hek WAS the limit; you either had it and abused its broken strength, or you fiddled around with guns inferior to it until you wanted to do REAL higher-level content, at which point you immediately switched back to your Hek. THAT was limitation. Being encouraged to use other weapons now that the Hek isn't the be-all-end-all gun isn't a limitation.

 

So okay, its problem is it deals tons of damage.

 

Solution: Reduce its damage. Would 140 damage be too much? 130? 120? Drop it by a few points every week or so until it isn't ridiculously overpowered. Not only did the Hek get nerfed, all other shotguns got significantly nerfed because they also suffer from damage falloff now. Were people saying the Strun and Boar were ridiculously OP as well? The Hek was made for long-range engagements. That was its niche. Instead of eliminating its niche, it should have been made more specialized for long-range fights.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MJ12

[PaxEthenica]

I'm interesting to hear the realistic shotgun mechanic would be. Can they consistently shoot someone in the head and OHK at 100 meter? 

 

 

Um, yes? You know how in Crysis you could put a sniper scope on the shotgun and that wasn't actually useless? That's actually realistic. Shotguns are more than capable of getting perfect accuracy at average videogame engagement ranges.

There's a reason that shotguns are used to hunt wild boar, deer, and ducks. In the first example, you need a weapon with enough punch at a safe distance to go through brush and strike something vital. In the second, you need a weapon that is accurate enough to do the same. Finally, in the third, you need a weapon that has both the killing reach and accuracy to pluck a flying animal from the sky.

[ShimmerDoll]

New weapons for them to level up for the mastery and ditch in favor of the Hek if they actually want to be serious would have been more accurate. There was zero reason to get any weapon beyond the Hek prior to this patch. It was largely renowned as the best gun in the game, because it had the damage of a point-blank shotgun blast, at distances that trumped rifles, at the cost of a single shotgun shell.

 

Removing the broken, overpowered weapon now means that players will have to branch out and choose other weapons, now that the clearly established "best gun in the game" has now been fixed. If nothing else, pre-patch Hek WAS the limit; you either had it and abused its broken strength, or you fiddled around with guns inferior to it until you wanted to do REAL higher-level content, at which point you immediately switched back to your Hek. THAT was limitation. Being encouraged to use other weapons now that the Hek isn't the be-all-end-all gun isn't a limitation.

But after todays patch I won't be branching out. I will be doing the opposite. Why trust anything now, if it could be nerfed?  I know I won't. I won't buy anything or put much time into this game with the way it is now. I support the game, but I just don't have fun with it after today's patch. I also didn't use the Hek on every character. I used it on two, the Gorgon I used on just one, but on 3 very specific maps I used it on everyone and that was just because of my playstyle.

 

The handguns seem to fire alot slower and they are pointless so I won't be buying new ones or leveling anything. I am scared to put too much effort into a hobby I love (playing this game) because the developers are just going to continuously nerf things and turn a hobby into an anxiety where my money is at stake.

[PaxEthenica]

New weapons for them to level up for the mastery and ditch in favor of the Hek if they actually want to be serious would have been more accurate. There was zero reason to get any weapon beyond the Hek prior to this patch. It was largely renowned as the best gun in the game, because it had the damage of a point-blank shotgun blast, at distances that trumped rifles, at the cost of a single shotgun shell.

 

Removing the broken, overpowered weapon now means that players will have to branch out and choose other weapons, now that the clearly established "best gun in the game" has now been fixed. If nothing else, pre-patch Hek WAS the limit; you either had it and abused its broken strength, or you fiddled around with guns inferior to it until you wanted to do REAL higher-level content, at which point you immediately switched back to your Hek. THAT was limitation. Being encouraged to use other weapons now that the Hek isn't the be-all-end-all gun isn't a limitation.

Except that there isn't. The higher levels become so hectic and dangerous that unless you can make a kill quickly and from cover, you are going to burn through your revives in solo. Which isn't a failing of the HEK, so much as it is a failing of the self-limiting nature of the difficulty curve. Without a powerful enough weapon, certain planetary chains become no-go areas, unless these people armed with underwhelming weapons comprise of tightly knit, supportive teams, not PUG groups.

Which isn't fun, it's a limitation made worse by nerfing the only known remedy to not having a deep, strategic online relationship revolving around a single game . . . like CoD players have.

[NalkorRN]

Crap. I just realized. There are about 5-10 of us really into this and everyone else is just dropping by to comment....

 

And shotguns are hella-accurate, especially with slug rounds. With slugs, they are basically heavy rifles, accurate to even beyond 100m. In STALKER, one of the first weapons is a shotgun... and it's your ending weapon too due to its accuracy, heavy damage, and ease of ammo finding. Thing is, STALKER knew it was OP, but it liked realism, so left it AS IS.

 

Everything about this game seems to push for sci-fi realism. Why not shotguns?

Shotguns were OP as hell in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series because one pack of blind dogs or two tag-teaming Bloodsuckers could ruin your day. This just makes me think The Zone kept expanding and the mutants turned into Infested.

 

Joking aside, yes the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series is very realistic. It's why I'm having so little trouble adapting to the Paris, because bullet velocity and bullet drop are something I'm used to.

[ShimmerDoll]

Except that there isn't. The higher levels become so hectic and dangerous that unless you can make a kill quickly and from cover, you are going to burn through your revives in solo. Which isn't a failing of the HEK, so much as it is a failing of the self-limiting nature of the difficulty curve. Without a powerful enough weapon, certain planetary chains become no-go areas, unless these people armed with underwhelming weapons comprise of tightly knit, supportive teams, not PUG groups.

Which isn't fun, it's a limitation made worse by nerfing the only known remedy to not having a deep, strategic online relationship revolving around a single game . . . like CoD players have.

I only solo too, and probably only will forever so this change really hurts me. I was told they are trying hard to keep solo players in mind too but the higher levels are so crazy, it's really unfun. I just play the low stuff, eventually going to get bored. I remember and miss the old days that developers made games for fun and didn't have all this crazy nerfing stuff. You bought a game and you didn't have to worry about it being nerfed. I know people will say beta, but they are letting us throw money at the game all the time to buy this new stuff. If it's beta the market shouldn't exist. The founders thing should be just that, until the real game is released.

 

Also, I am agreeing with you. Hopefully you see that!

Edited April 27, 2013 by BloodDoll

[neKroMancer]

The HEK is used so wide-spread because it was such an efficient killer, yes, but likely only because it was their "big boy gun" that they used for farming mods and resources from the more difficult planetary chains. Why? So they could accrue better, more varied mods, and use the foundry to make new weapons for them to use. See how that works? How not nerfing a perfectly killtastic weapon doesn't, in the slightest, ultimately limit people to how many weapons they'll end up using and leveling up? How that completely invalidates your point?

I think your post just make it more clear that Hek was a highest standard the game offered prior 7.9.0. Why do you need Hek and Hek alone to farm high level planet/defense in the first place?

Because it was the only weapon that had enough juice to get the job done. An established gold standard of weapon. You want to get serious? Get Hek.

Most of the weapons served as a 3000 mastery point value before got ditched for Hek.

[ShimmerDoll]

I think your post just make it more clear that Hek was a highest standard the game offered prior 7.9.0. Why do you need Hek and Hek alone to farm high level planet/defense in the first place?

Because it was the only weapon that had enough juice to get the job done. An established gold standard of weapon. You want to get serious? Get Hek.

Most of the weapons served as a 3000 mastery point value before got ditched for Hek.

If they just put the drop rate of mods to something sane, since people have lives and other stuff to do and then put the guns back to how they were, things would be fine. To make money they just need to keep releasing new stuff like more frames, weapons, frame customization (not just helmets), maybe a personal ship, new sentinel types or anything interesting without devaluing the current content, and people will play/pay to get it.

 

That can be accomplished without nerfing anything and adjusting the drop rate so we aren't forced to farm. Basically when I log into the game, I know for the next 4-5 hours I will be farming to get mods which is boring. I try to have fun but the higher level stuff destroys me even when I used the Hek. Now it indefinitely destroys me with the new patch.

[PaxEthenica]

I think your post just make it more clear that Hek was a highest standard the game offered prior 7.9.0. Why do you need Hek and Hek alone to farm high level planet/defense in the first place?

Because it was the only weapon that had enough juice to get the job done. An established gold standard of weapon. You want to get serious? Get Hek.

Most of the weapons served as a 3000 mastery point value before got ditched for Hek.

Actually, you might be right. Except the game is in beta, and it's also a business venture as well as a diversion. This means that in coming months, or even (hopefully) years there will be a lot of future content. That future content relies on a steady stream of income. Usually in the form of Catalysts and Reactors, but also in the form of new weapons purchased with platinum that are unlocked at existing and future mastery teirs. This all relies on people either not getting discouraged, bored, or frustrated out of the game in the long and near term. Which is a scarily ephemeral goal, especially since someone who's already plonked down a serious chunk of change has all but admited that their commitment to play time (and thus potential revenue) is very likely shriveling up.

Edited April 27, 2013 by PaxEthenica

[FightLikeAKrogan]

Stop comparing everything to COD. It's not edgy, it doesn't make you a champion of non-mainstream games, and it makes me play Black Ops 1/2 and the old COD games just to spite you people. It's a video game you don't like - so? You don't play it, good for you! It's not for you.

 

I was going to actually seriously answer your question, but your COD comparison has made me lose all interest.

[PaxEthenica]

I was going to actually seriously answer your question, but your COD comparison has made me lose all interest.

You never had it, because you obviously didn't read the opening post. Did I say that CoD was a bad game? Was my CoD comparisson valid, or just so much noise and vitriol? You don't know, you didn't read, and likely had no intention to do so yet devoted yourself to typing anyway. Amazing.

 

Can we get back to civil discourse now? Thank you.

Edited April 27, 2013 by PaxEthenica

[ShimmerDoll]

Steve (the charismatic guy in the videos) says in a video at PAX East, "they were influenced  by L4D and Borderlands."
<--those games have FUN guns, not nerf toys.

 

He also said publishers wouldn't touch it back then because they wanted a "crazy call of duty clones or something"

 

Edited April 27, 2013 by BloodDoll

[FightLikeAKrogan]

You never had it, because you obviously didn't read the opening post. Did I say that CoD was a bad game? Was my CoD comparisson valid, or just so much noise and vitriol? You don't know, you didn't read, and likely had no intention to do so yet devoted yourself to typing anyway. Amazing.

 

Can we get back to civil discourse now? Thank you.

Except I didn't imply you said it was a bad game, I was attacking you for comparing Warframe to COD. Two completely different games. Bravo, good sir! Bravo! Continue to attempt to be mature by comparing two games that have absolutely no relation to each other. The moral high ground: not where you stand.

[Onite]

New weapons for them to level up for the mastery and ditch in favor of the Hek if they actually want to be serious would have been more accurate. There was zero reason to get any weapon beyond the Hek prior to this patch. It was largely renowned as the best gun in the game, because it had the damage of a point-blank shotgun blast, at distances that trumped rifles, at the cost of a single shotgun shell.

 

Removing the broken, overpowered weapon now means that players will have to branch out and choose other weapons, now that the clearly established "best gun in the game" has now been fixed. If nothing else, pre-patch Hek WAS the limit; you either had it and abused its broken strength, or you fiddled around with guns inferior to it until you wanted to do REAL higher-level content, at which point you immediately switched back to your Hek. THAT was limitation. Being encouraged to use other weapons now that the Hek isn't the be-all-end-all gun isn't a limitation.

 

This is the mentality that is breaking the game apart. "Because a weapon is good and makes others look bad, it must be destroyed to FORCE other weapons to come into play."

 

This logic hurts my brain, because you could instead, you know, use the carrot instead of the stick to buff the not so good weapons and bring them into the fun zone to enjoy with the rest of them. Instead of breaking everyone's favorite toys for being fun.

[PaxEthenica]

This logic hurts my brain, because you could instead, you know, use the carrot instead of the stick to buff the not so good weapons and bring them into the fun zone to enjoy with the rest of them. Instead of breaking everyone's favorite toys for being fun.

I like this sentiment. It's kind of warm and fuzzy, and for me at least more than a little bit true.

Budgetary constraints forced me to sell both my Mk 1 and regular Bratons for a Strun, Gorgon, and Mire. I already had Dual HEAT at 30, and a Furis steadily leveling up as a solid sidearm. It was painful selling both of my trusty plinkers, and not only because I catalyzed them. I had also customized them, and spent days getting to know how to use them, and it was weird but selling them off to make room was actually kind of rough. Next month, I'm probably going to buy some platinum (business get!) to expand my weapon slots amount. I plan to do that pretty much each pay day (long-term business get!!!!!1), if I can afford such frivolity, who knows? I might just buy my Bratons again, and even catalyze them all over (money-money-MON-NEH!).

[Smoke39]

So okay, its problem is it deals tons of damage.

 

Solution: Reduce its damage. Would 140 damage be too much? 130? 120? Drop it by a few points every week or so until it isn't ridiculously overpowered. Not only did the Hek get nerfed, all other shotguns got significantly nerfed because they also suffer from damage falloff now. Were people saying the Strun and Boar were ridiculously OP as well? The Hek was made for long-range engagements. That was its niche. Instead of eliminating its niche, it should have been made more specialized for long-range fights.

 

This times a million.  Why were the Strun and Boar nerfed in response to the HEK being overpowered?  Why was the HEK nerfed in a way that obliterated its primary distinguishing characteristic?  It's like the devs put no thought into this.

[ShimmerDoll]

This times a million.  Why were the Strun and Boar nerfed in response to the HEK being overpowered?  Why was the HEK nerfed in a way that obliterated its primary distinguishing characteristic?  It's like the devs put no thought into this.

Yeah it seems like they didn't think it through.

[KageNoShini]

People should calm the F*** down, DE responds okay?

 

They nerfed the best weapons in game too much? Just calmly tell them through forum responses, they will see, they will fix.

 

There is no need for this "The only viable weapon got nerfed, I spent money on that so I'm not going to anymore" BS. If you feel the nerf was too much then post a topic, upvote a topic of similar ideas to yours, reply to a topic of similar idea, or any combination of those things.

 

Aside from that the "I quit because my fav weap is nerfed" is wrong, if that person quits then when DE listens to the community and fixes it, they won't be able to enjoy themselves, unless they decide to follow updates on a game they ragequitted until a patch says "nerf fixed"

 

Now, I have used both gorgon and hek, i hated the hek, probably just didn't care for it/modded it right, but i couldn't do anything against ancients, my ceramic dagger was better. The gorgon I used as a pseudo minigun deal, spool before turning corner that I know people are behind then unleashing a hail of bullets.

 

Finally, I do agree that the shotgun dropoff ranges should be increased, as DE_Steve already stated he will look into it, so DE already recognized their fault to all you "Hek is nerfed, I quit" people. And that the Gorgon could have an increase in its base accuracy, say 80% accuracy on the first shot with 65-70% accuracy at full speed.

 

TLDR: DE replies fast so stop whining.

[Ferriwind]

Shotguns can hit a target at long range. But realistically, due to the energy distribution among pellets, each pellet should do much, much less damage than a single regular rifle bullet. Shotguns do the most damage at close range, that's a given. Even if DESteve reduces the effect of damage falling off over distance, shotguns should still give unsatisfying damage at long distances but they should produce devastating results at a close distance.

[neKroMancer]

Shotguns can hit a target at long range. But realistically, due to the energy distribution among pellets, each pellet should do much, much less damage than a single regular rifle bullet. Shotguns do the most damage at close range, that's a given. Even if DESteve reduces the effect of damage falling off over distance, shotguns should still give unsatisfying damage at long distances but they should produce devastating results at a close distance.

finally, someone who understands how pellet works.

[ShimmerDoll]

Shotguns can hit a target at long range. But realistically, due to the energy distribution among pellets, each pellet should do much, much less damage than a single regular rifle bullet. Shotguns do the most damage at close range, that's a given. Even if DESteve reduces the effect of damage falling off over distance, shotguns should still give unsatisfying damage at long distances but they should produce devastating results at a close distance.

I think he needs to increase the damage and accuracy when you hard aim. You are putting yourself at risk doing that (slower movement, field of view worse etc) and should be rewarded for it over if they are going to go that route. Sadly they should just work on the other guns and make them good in their own way. You know taking the time to give each one a personality, and looking at peoples loadouts as preference not punishment via nerfs. In the end it won't matter people will move to a new gun, commit the ultimate crime of using it too much and then that gun will be nerfed too, or that frame or melee weapons. I could easily see how to fix this problem but I won't post it here. It needs to be seen in a video format for sure.

 

So far the game is turning out nothing like the two games he said inspired them in that video. In those games especially the latter, you are rewarded often, all the guns are fun and only get more fun as you reach higher levels. In this the higher I level the weaker I feel. The difficulty ramps up and the point of getting strong has vanished. Really hurts solo players like myself.

 

In the end though this nerf put a huge red flag up for me and buying anything anymore for this game. It's just a logical thing now to not throw away money on any content since it might be nerfed and end up being something I never use again, and I'm filled with regret for making the purchase of the Hek and Gorgon now.  I don't care if the new stuff in the future is amazing. I don't support games that take items that cost real money and devalue them like this, and leave me feeling empty and suspicious about future content.  I'm also not a farmer so I would never farm for blueprints. So I'll just probably grow disinterested slowly and maybe that's their intent. Maybe the founders founded the development but they see people that it'll be people who buy the next good item or frame to be the better customers. For awhile I had regarded this game as the best to many people I know.

 

In all honestly I don't think Steve and the rest meant for this game to be like this, as it should be an escape for fun, not a disappointment. Maybe he will restore the guns to their former glory with a few tweaks and buff the other guns a bit. Right now wasting my time ranking up stuff that's going to get the nerf bat is a horrible use of time, and time is more valuable in this world than anything.

Edited April 27, 2013 by BloodDoll

[Ferriwind]

I think he needs to increase the damage and accuracy when you hard aim. You are putting yourself at risk doing that (slower movement, field of view worse etc) and should be rewarded for it over if they are going to go that route.

I would have to agree with this suggestion, but it's too easy to scope in and out in warframe. Maybe if the recoil during aiming would be more noticeable....like with the bronco...