Enemies (Part 2)--Massive Mobs And My Noscope One-Shot Assault Rifle

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

This is the Part 2 to my thread Enemies--Too Easy? Yes. Too Difficult? Still yes! Too Skill-less? Absolutely ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/359460-enemies-too-easy-yes-too-difficult-still-yes-too-skill-less-absolutely/ ) and it's meant to be thought of in tandem with that thread. I feel that the contents in this thread would be incomplete without the ideas of that one. This thread asks for more difficult and sweeping changes than the other, and will probably be more divisive than that one.

 

 

Today in Warframe, I was observing how wonderfully designed the Grineer Bombard is. How I can try to melee to increase my movement to dodge its rockets, but then how dangerous it becomes when I'm up close with it. How I can keep my distance, but then I have to multitask between shooting and dodging. How... NAH just kidding! I just shot in the general direction knowing it would be dead in a few seconds, and understanding there wasn't time to observe it anyway because of the giant horde with it.

 

 

In an attempt to replace quality with quantity, we're getting attacked by giant mobs of easily-killed enemies. The mobs, I imagine DE figured, will offset the ease we have to kill the individuals.

 

 

Except that's what our abilities are designed to counter. "How shall we counter the abilities?" DE must've mused. "Let's introduce enemies that can counter them!" But now, those enemies are being lost in the mobs and players are becoming frustrated! "Let's try line-of-sight requirements!" But now we must stand still in front of the mobs, knowing standing in front of 30 enemies at once means death.

 

Quantity cannot replace quality. We need less enemies that are more difficult to kill, or the most interesting of them won't ever be noticed.

 

 

My suggestion is to fix another problem we have while dealing with this: that damage mods are always the answer when talking about our weapons. Let's limit the true "damage mods" to Serration/Hornet Strike/etc. and critical damage mods. Now, elementals and physical damage mods are going to convert a percentage of the total base damage to that element instead of adding any, and be scaled downward as a result. Multishot mods will allow each bullet to crit or proc individually, but split the damage in half between the two. Corrupted damage mods are going to be greatly scaled down damage-wise (+45% damage, -55% accuracy). And, although it's not directly related to the enemies, we're going to boost many of the utility mods too.

 

 

Meanwhile, we'll greatly decrease the number of enemies that spawn (and increase drop rates of mods, resources, and life support) to about 35% of the enemies that spawn now, and possibly increase their health. If it is done as intended, a level 30 Lancer will take about two seconds to kill, and a Heavy around 5-7 with a catalyzed market weapon. Prime weapons will take around 67% of that time. This will also help improve single-target weapons like Shotguns and Snipers, as they will take a single shot for Lancers. Shotguns and body shots with snipers will take around  3 shots to kill, and snipers will get one-shot kills to the head.

 

 

This would take lots of work to make sure it was done properly, but in the end it allows us to see what's going on better and improves the worth of single-target abilities and weapons, give us more reason to use utility mods, and most importantly increases importance of our enemies, and overall makes for a better game.

[Zoracraft]

Sadly, it does seem necessary to get rid of straight-damage mods to get the game balanced.

+1, I especially like your idea for elemental and IPS mods. Would make mods be more "mod" like.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Sadly, it does seem necessary to get rid of straight-damage mods to get the game balanced.

+1, I especially like your idea for elemental and IPS mods. Would make mods be more "mod" like.

 

The only issue with it is there would need to be a change to the way elementals stack, perhaps by limiting the number that could be put on at once. Not that this would matter as much, as without the damage bonus there really is no reason to put on more than maybe three (at 30% boosts each).

[Yazeth]

Quite an interesting solution. Of course, like you said, it would take a lot of work to implement something like this. Well, this was definitely a good read, especially after reading about 5 threads that were more rants than anything constructive. I definitely hope DE takes a good look at enemies in the near future.

 

+1

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Quite an interesting solution. Of course, like you said, it would take a lot of work to implement something like this. Well, this was definitely a good read, especially after reading about 5 threads that were more rants than anything constructive. I definitely hope DE takes a good look at enemies in the near future.

 

+1

 

Unfortunately everything would have to be accounted for: ammo economy would have to be better, object/pod strength would have to increase, LS would have to be like a 50% drop, scaling would have to work to not make mid levels terrible for new players, would minibosses and bosses get the health boost (my answers would be Sprag/KVentra no, Lynx yes, G3 and Hunter no, Stalker needs a whole rebalance), should melee get a damage buff to compensate (I'd say generally yes).

 

I think it would be doable or I wouldn't have written this thread, but it would be like Damage 2.0 in that it encompasses everything. I hope that wouldn't be too discouraging or risky for DE to consider.

[Bibliothekar]

Now, elementals and physical damage mods are going to convert a percentage of the total base damage to that element instead of adding any, and be scaled downward as a result. Multishot mods will allow each bullet to crit or proc individually, but split the damage in half between the two.

I really like this part of your suggestion, because I have similar thoughts on elemental damage (thread is archived). With the base damage mods and those new event mods, damage just goes through the roof and enemies have to become tougher and tougher - in turn making things a lot harder if you pick up a fresh weapon and want to try it out. So I'd love to get rid of raw damage mods, but half of the forums would probably burn down the place if DE ever decided to do this.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I really like this part of your suggestion, because I have similar thoughts on elemental damage (thread is archived). With the base damage mods and those new event mods, damage just goes through the roof and enemies have to become tougher and tougher - in turn making things a lot harder if you pick up a fresh weapon and want to try it out. So I'd love to get rid of raw damage mods, but half of the forums would probably burn down the place if DE ever decided to do this.

 

I'm honestly not sure the reaction would be so negative. DE's attempts at increasing difficulty through unavoidable circumstances have made it clear to a lot of people that simpler changes aren't going to be enough--they simply feed into the unavoidable cycle I described in another thread:

 

Game is too easy!

 

DE increases enemy spawn rates

 

It's dangerous for casters!

 

DE buffs abilities

 

We kill them too quickly!

 

DE introduces enemies with unavoidable mechanics/mechanics biased against certain frames

 

Enemies are too difficult!

 

DE buffs weapons so we kill them faster

 

Game is too easy!

 

And with that realization, I think people are really gaining interest in Damage/Mods/Enemies being reworked.

[dukelego]

sadly they wont put in the time they'll just keep adding items until they cant then let the game go to 0 income and then kill it

[DSpite]

I generally agree, but, it's a hell of a change. I think our gear scales too high too fast for this type of game, which I did not initially think would do so, when I first started.

 

I expected a CoD4 type weapon progression where yea, you can make guns deadlier, but to say, a factor of 3 or maybe 4 if you wanted to gimp yourself to a handful of magazines, or slow fire rate, etc etc, was not expecting it to scale as much as I discovered.

 

*shrug*

 

I've always wanted to ask DE "where does the balanced line lay in YOUR heads?"

 

If we have Rank 30 Frames, guns with only 60 mod points (or could not add MORE Polarized slots above weapon default), and went on to fight maps with ALL level 30 enemies, would we get the game play that DE wanted us to get? Or is that line in a different spot?

 

I would REALLY like to know, in order to figure out what was originally intended.

[Bibliothekar]

I'm honestly not sure the reaction would be so negative.

Maybe you're right. I just remember that this suggestion once came up in a devstream and they said that they would like to get rid of Serration and the like themselves, but they knew quite well that parts of their players would go mental if they "stole" those mods, and so they were not going to do it. Because they were afraid of a little S#&$storm ...

[DSpite]

Maybe you're right. I just remember that this suggestion once came up in a devstream and they said that they would like to get rid of Serration and the like themselves, but they knew quite well that parts of their players would go mental if they "stole" those mods, and so they were not going to do it. Because they were afraid of a little S#&$storm ...

 

Well, frankly, DE can thrash my entire inventory if they so choose. I mean, I would "expect" they would introduce some artificial compensation anyway, I'm just saying that if a large portion of the player population saw the changes and said "these are great BUT I'll vote no because of all the time I've lost" my gut reaction would be:

 

 

and I would tell tell then to put up with it, and keep playing.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Maybe you're right. I just remember that this suggestion once came up in a devstream and they said that they would like to get rid of Serration and the like themselves, but they knew quite well that parts of their players would go mental if they "stole" those mods, and so they were not going to do it. Because they were afraid of a little S#&$storm ...

 

I think they should just give some really nice compensation (that doesn't really cost them anything) like Legendary Cores, a few affinity/credit boosters, maybe a free new weapon/Vault weapon... I don't really think it's necessary or that anyone "deserves" it, but if it would keep the player base happy then I think it's worth it.