This "4 To Win" Mentality That The Community Seems To Hate

[CHunterX]

See, the good thing about Nullifiers is that they force the player into situations where an AoE won't destroy or incapacitate absolutely everything. This is the beginnings of diversity. Of actual gameplay / tactic inducing change. While it is less "efficient" than wiping the floor with everything with an AoE, efficiency shouldn't be the feature of the game. Enjoyability should. While it's nice to be looking for that Prime Part or another key, is the reward greater than the gameplay itself? Is it all a means to an end to get the carrot on the end of the stick, instead of the journey to get the carrot?

Players should be presented with a number of solutions to their problems, but the solution should not unanimously be the 4 button.

Because "hold down the trigger in the direction of the giant glowing bubble" is a much more meaningful tactic than proper skill use.

[KnorrSoup]

No, it doesn't, read again.

 

As for your last sentence, there's no point in thinking about "creative" ways to use your power when all your powers are NULLIFIED completely by those Nullifiers.

Then what is the point you are trying to make?

 

And you're still thinking of ways to directly damage the enemy with abilities. An example would be to use a mobility power to bring yourself to a vantage point to shoot the shield, or an ability to increase run/melee speed, so you can build up momentum before coptering into the bubble and attacking.

[.ERO.]

AKA: People dont like my "strat" and are making fun of me :'(

[Whitewolf..UK..]

This thread is getting beyond silly now.

Please lock.

[KaynArgyr]

My concern about "Press 4 to Win" comments are pretty much:

 

"Not everyone using a determinate frame spams the ultimate." - That's the first thing that comes to mind. But there are other istances of a similar mentality. "All Rhino players are Hallways heroes!", "All Ash players are Bladestorm nuts who only press 4!" and similar situations. While I cannot be in your mind and witness all your experiences, I'm fairly sure from my personal experience that it doesn't hold true for every player using a 'frame to confine himself to one specific tactic. Beside where required by the mission type. 

 

"Not everyone who doesn't thinks like you, spams 4 to Win or cannot play properly." - Point two, very important. It doesn't matter how much valid arguments one can bring to the table, people will likely use the "Finally a stop to the press 4 to win!" catchphrase. I'm sorry to break this news to some people, but there are players around the world that have a different vision about what is a challenge than others. Beside, there are circumstances where you have to spam a skill. A Trinity who doesn't spam Energy Vampire, a Nova that doesn't spam Molecular Prime or a Frost who isn't spamming Snowglobe on a Defense missions are usually considered sub par player. 

 

Ironic how in such case, spamming on ability is perfectly legit and tolerated, even worse required.

 

"This game balancement is screwed just as a madman's head." - Seriously, the enemies improve almost exponentially and we get a reset of the drop waves every 4 of them. It's not about them being doable or not, it's about getting the same reward pool we get for a Wave 5 when we finish a Wave 45 at a Defense. It's mindless grind without any concern about what players need to fight to achieve rewards. To be honest I can't disagree with whom choose a Mindless way of fight to deal with such a grind. Also, the AI of many enemies is plain stupid. They simply run at you soaking damage with Gojirion of HPs. I believe that anyone able to notice this has no real right to tell others how to play, and anyone who cannot notice this isn't really competent enough to speak.

 

I'm thankful to DE for Warframe but, while they may be Gods about their own game, they're not perfect.

 

"There is no, or at least to my knowledge, a Videogame Players' University." - Or anything similar to that. I would have applied and graduate otherwise, for the fun of having the paper. What I mean is that there is no way to define a proper way to play a game. Not even for the Game Designers and Developers, if they allows us to use some tools, then us players are allowed to make the best use we can get out of them. Developers and Designers can try to change things, steering us toward a predefinite path, but from my PnP Roleplay experiences I can say that people doesn't like steering that aren't extremely subtle.

 

And, by no mean, another player has the right to impose his morals on a fellow player by judging his behaviour in-game.

 

By the way I don't like the Nullifiers, I have fought them, beated them even in T4 Voids but I still don't like them in Tower Defenses for a series of motives I have explained elsewhere. And I find insulting to my intelligence when people either assumes that I'm not good at the game or that I "Spam 4 to Win".

 

Addenda:

 

For these people, they exist everywhere, that will comment about me being verbose and correct. I like to be verbose, I like to look somewhat cultured, I like to explain my points properly. Sadly I'm not a native english speaker and I have learned dealing with UK and US people. So yeah, I can make some minor or major grammar error. Thank you in advance for pointing these error out to me. I can thus improve my proficience with the language.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Branwyn

[victor_victory]

Why do you need to play warframe if you're just spamming 4? Here's a demonstration of how you "play" warframe 

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Look, No difference. That's not remotely close to playing a game. You can do that wherever you want as long as there is a keyboard.

If you admit that you are not playing the game but just mindlessly doing the same thing over and over again. Then I won't blame you or hate you. At least you are self-aware.

[KaynArgyr]

Why do you need to play warframe if you're just spamming 4? Here's a demonstration of how you "play" warframe 

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Look, No difference. That's not remotely close to playing a game. You can do that wherever you want as long as there is a keyboard.

If you admit that you are not playing the game but just mindlessly doing the same thing over and over again. Then I won't blame you or hate you. At least you are self-aware.

 

This is the supreme demonstration of how people is narrow minded.

[Overlord_Hades]

Because when the press 4 to win tactic is most often used in content when it is entirely unnecessary?

One doesn't actually need to spam those abilities for quite a bit into even T4 content.

Spamming 4 is fine when its all you can do to survive and there is a reason behind it.

 

The reason ult spamming is looked down on is because 90% of the time its entirely unnecessary.

 

Its no fun playing defenses with novas spamming MP before anyones even seen a mob poke their head out.

Its even less fun when we are coping just fine and all it does is slow things down.

Similar train of thought applies to other similar abilities.

 

Ever played an intercept on jupiter (small map) with 2 saryns with max range on miasma? I think I got 40 kills out of 5 rounds simply because most things were dead as soon as they spawned.

 

When the game becomes about maximising efficiency over fun and resorting to 4 spam for everything then its probably time you take a break because you obviously aren't having much fun.

 

Fun>effciency and DEE PEEE ESSSS!

This, 100% this is why people hate 4 spam. Most of the time its not needed and makes the game boreing, who wants to p;ay afk the game. In endgame content its great, you have poeple use their 4's and you use weapons when your not useing abilities. If im playing a 50 min survival mission and the enemies are hitting level 80-100+your damn right I want to see those CC frames spam as I unload and spam myself, But if your on normal missions or they are just starting and you have someone spamming things dead befor they even get out of span thats boring and only is fun for the person killing because you get to do domething.

Everyone wants to be the excal on stephano/draco, or the mirage on cerberus. It feel great to kill everything on the map, but our teammate want a turn too bro, 4 isn always needed. Thats why people like nullifiers. They give use something to fight that isnt mindless and repetitive. They break up the manotany. You can still spam to kill mobs and ill go kill the uys stopping you from spamming all the mobs. Now we have teamwork, a focus and you can handel it in a few diffrent ways and its not just a bullet sponge.

 

Get it now ?

[SilentCynic]

The problem is that the 4 key is the solution to almost any situation in Warframe, and with Corrupted mods (Which I still feel were a terrible idea, as they make effective balance ludicrously difficult), they can be made dirt cheap to boot.

 

Warframe suffers from a litany of flaws at its core when one takes a step back to consider that just spamming 4 is often the most fastest and least effort-intensive means of dealing with a problem. Very few things in Warframe can't be solved by just killing the NPCs harder, and the approach the playerbase takes to playing the game reflects that.

 

More depth and challenge is required to flesh out the maps, abilities and enemies we encounter. There is a distinction, however, to be drawn between "challenging" and "difficult", which DE sometimes seems to struggle with, and I'd say it's due in large part to how absurd player power scaling is in this game.

[KaynArgyr]

The problem is that the 4 key is the solution to almost any situation in Warframe, and with Corrupted mods (Which I still feel were a terrible idea, as they make effective balance ludicrously difficult), they can be made dirt cheap to boot.

 

Warframe suffers from a litany of flaws at its core when one takes a step back to consider that just spamming 4 is often the most fastest and least effort-intensive means of dealing with a problem. Very few things in Warframe can't be solved by just killing the NPCs harder, and the approach the playerbase takes to playing the game reflects that.

 

More depth and challenge is required to flesh out the maps, abilities and enemies we encounter. There is a distinction, however, to be drawn between "challenging" and "difficult", which DE sometimes seems to struggle with, and I'd say it's due in large part to how absurd player power scaling is in this game.

 

I'd welcome the challenge anytime...

 

But DE needs to give me a challenge for me to welcome...

 

The Nullifier is not a challenge, the grindwalls are a challenge only to our patience, the last challenge I saw?

 

VOID VOR

 

It requires you to Aim, since it's a small moving target that allows you to damage him it forces you to move in accord with your team and finally:

 

IT GIVES YOU AN EVENT MOD AS A REWARD!

 

It's not hard, but you cannot spam firepower or abilities to win, he can damage you pretty well, you feel satisfaction taking him down and even get a nice prize.

 

Void Vor, to me, is a challenge.

 

Maybe not the hardest, maybe not the brightest, but it's the best step DE had made toward making a battle interesting.

[ZukaBazuka]

Vor can be targeted by Novas slow and Banshees sonar. If the sonar land on his weakspot you will kill him in a second. The other thing you can do is use trinity and use well of life on him, when the timer is almost out just throw energy vamp on him and you now do 62% damage on him per tick. So for me he never was a problem due to the frames I used in void.

 

What I don't get is this hatred for using the ulti. In every other mmo I played that had really powerful skills I would constantly use them against low level monsters. Just because I can, low level monster would have a chance of dropping a certain item that I would need so I wouldn't use the S#&$ty gear trying to get it. Same goes in Warframe, most of the other abilities are often weaker, can't deal that well with a group and they really only go in one direction where the ulti goes all over the place.

[gkuoni]

The term "Press-4-to-win" doesn't necessarily always mean press 4 to win. In warframe it has come to take on a new definition, and that is using one ability of a frame that nukes the whole area with damage. What the community wants isn't more damage ultimates, what we want is good utility which allows us to go even further into t4s and such. Need an example of utility? : Loki's Radial Disarm, Vauban's Vortex, Mag's Pull, Nix's Chaos/Absorb etc.

 

These are all really good at keeping the enemy away and or causing them to be weakened. Most of the time playing this game, we use our ultimate as a get out of jail free card, however we want to be able to use our ultimate to not only deal damage (Mag, Ash, Ember, Mesa, etc.), the damage is already being dealt with primary and secondary (Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Brakk, any other op weapon), so there's no need to deal even more damage. Another factor is that utility abilities are a LOT more fun than damage abilities.

[KaynArgyr]

Vor can be targeted by Novas slow and Banshees sonar. If the sonar land on his weakspot you will kill him in a second. The other thing you can do is use trinity and use well of life on him, when the timer is almost out just throw energy vamp on him and you now do 62% damage on him per tick. So for me he never was a problem due to the frames I used in void.

 

Never said he was a problem but, as you pointed out, it required some tactical sense to fight him.

 

And for Sonar to hit on his weakspot, you need to aim at it, not in the general direction.

[havikryan]

why put the blame on 4 spammers when the blame is on warframe mods, I mean what else will you put on your warframe? laser resistance? fire resistance? there is a better way to resist it, use abilities so they don't affect you, honesty it seems to me players aren't to blame but the mods for frames, plenty of times I try to build a frame without the use of a 4 key and i'm just like ''wth else do I put on this here...''

[StinkyPygmy]

Sad thing is that I don't even use frames that have 4's that kill entire rooms, my most played frame is nekros. If I would be playing today I'd have to resort on using rhino prime and spamming 4 to even survive :)

Really? because I do just fine as banshee...

[StinkyPygmy]

You should post more, I am serious

 

People play this for 1000+ hours and max out everything which does take 1000+ hours and then complain they can kill an entire room, yes you can and thats the whole point !!

If that was the only point of playing WF then why do nullifiers exist?

Why did the great viver frame nerf happen?

Why do we even have enemy scaling?

Might as well Make every planet the same level as mercury if that was literally the only goal and the only way to play the game.

The fact is you already get to be a god and wreck battalions of mobs pretty much anywhere in game. So whats the issue if people actually have to do something other then press 4 from time to time?

You know, stuff like actually using those akfuris you always bring along but never fire because "lol blade storm"?

 

Theres no denying that 4 spam is just a symptom of  a bigger problem.

 

Traditionally, fun in games is derived from overcoming a challenge.

 

Its amazing how the actual problem people have with spamming ults etc is not the same as the one you and others seem to think it is.

Its been mentioned before by others but I'll reiterate: The biggest issue is that most people don't like playing the AFK game, Either because your team mates are killing everything as it spawns and you brought trinity and have no nuke to spam or you are the one spamming 4 and also praying to lotus the next 50 rounds ends soon.

I'll repeat: 1 button should not be the universal solution to literally everything.

Edited December 18, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[sz2142]

If they made skills 1-3 more significant this wouldn't be a problem. DE will just take the easy way out and make 4 just as useless as skills 1-3 and you won't have any buttons to press. 

[Z123FFSS89]

its more so "press 4 to reset"

I'm not against it for endless missions 40mins/40waves in

BUT!!!

I dislike players who spam 4 in ext missions like they don't have weapons.

[Azure_Kytia]

Because "hold down the trigger in the direction of the giant glowing bubble" is a much more meaningful tactic than proper skill use.

It at least forces players to switch up their tactics. Nothing like that really happens when you're wiping the floor using skills. By having an enemy that protects a range of enemies around them, it gives you a priority target if you so happen to want to clear the floor first. I'm not saying skill usage is bad, but variety is good. Having an enemy you HAVE to shoot or melee to defeat at least enforces diversity in technique.

Old system:

- Surrounded by enemies, need to CC

- Use Skill, incapacitate everything.

New System:

- Surrounded by enemies w/ Nullifiers, need to CC

- Shoot bubble to break shield

- shoot Nullifier

OR

- Use Skill, incapacitate everything.

OR

- Slide into Bubble, shoot/melee Nullifier directly

- Use Skill, incapacitate everything.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Azure_Kyte

[Kontrollo]

why put the blame on 4 spammers when the blame is on warframe mods, I mean what else will you put on your warframe? laser resistance? fire resistance? there is a better way to resist it, use abilities so they don't affect you, honesty it seems to me players aren't to blame but the mods for frames, plenty of times I try to build a frame without the use of a 4 key and i'm just like ''wth else do I put on this here...''

 

Of course, ultimately it's the mods that are to blame. With abilities that can reach a radius of ~60 m with maxed out mods, you're better off just using that - even when having LOS to your targets - than even the most accurate weapons. And it's faster as well.

 

I think a lot of people will agree with me when i say that this whole argument isn't about using a Warframe's nukes, it's about using nothing but. And no, bringing up endless missions past 40 minutes isn't a counterargument, because if you do that there standing still in one place, you probably won't live long. It's about that on some maps, the game is less rewarding in terms of progression (reputation, xp, loot) when playing as a human being instead of a keyboard macro.

 

Myself, I don't mind people doing that as long as:

• They keep to themselves, playing solo or with like-minded people
• Their method of "playing" the game doesn't warp the game environment too much

The Viver problem has shown us that the latter isn't possible. I believe they'd have to remove trading completely from the game to alleviate some of the worst side-effects.

 

What we've also seen is that the community would pick up their torches and pitchforks again if DE dared to touch these mods, or - god forbid - change one of those nuke abilities again.

 

In comparison to what else they could come up with, Nullifiers are a blessing.

 

 

Edit: better wording

Edited December 18, 2014 by Kontrollo

[Casval_Rouge]

I really don't think "Press 4 to win" is somehow an accurate description of high level Warframe gameplay.  Because seriously, how many 4s are actually THAT good?  There's Nova's, one that does damage in a large AOE while also slow enemies to a crawl.  Now that's a "P42W" because you don't even need to spam it.  But anything else it starts to get debatable.  The old Trinity has a "P42W", while I think it still is, I know people will argue with me on that one.  I just don't think ultimates are bad in general.  The lack of balance is what's causing all these problems.  It is because of how powerful scalable powers (CC or otherwise) are in high level that spamming them, or focus your build on them makes for very efficient runs.  And the worst part is that whatever downside that comes with having a too focused build is offset by way too powerful loadouts.  Boltor Prime + Brakk for example.  

 

But the reality is that there will always be top most efficient compositions, one that would trounce any other.  And pressing 4 to win will not go away.  Because if they nerf ultimates, then something else will have to be viable in high levels.  That would most likely be overpowered guns.  Then the meta would change to having the best survivability team with the best guns. 

 

Ideally you want high level to be about using everything you have, but I think it is a pipe dream.  Especially when the game uses randomly generated content with "infinite" scalable enemies.  If you can't balance the encounters, how can you balance the tactics used to beat them.  I've said it since closed beta, if DE don't come up with a standard on performance of various weapons and powers, and stick to it, then the game will always be about spamming one thing or another.  Because again, something has to be the best at beating the content, and the majority that knows it will want to use it to get the rewards faster and easier.  Especially when there's RNG behind it.  How many of your playerbase will care about challenge, and especially when there are public games.   Would you prefer to know your randomly made team is consist of dependable players, or would you like to group with ineffective players.  Obviously this applies to high level stuff, not Mercury missions.

 

DE please.  Look at the damage powers are doing.  Compare them.  You see how MP has "infinite" damage potential, and most others don't?  Yea that's called imba.  Then look at every Warframes powers.  You see Sayrn's power set?  You see how easy it is to spam miasma and do the most damage (the best defensive is the best offensive)?  Why would anyone use anything else then?  Now look at weapons.  See how much dps Boltor Prime is doing, then compare it to the rest.  Unless they are clearly newbie weapons that are easily obtained, then they should be able to do similar dps.  As to why just the dps, because once again killing things as fast as possible is the best way to beat the enemies.  That's why gimmicky weapons like Buzlok will always be for the gimmick, and never for serious use.  And please don't give me the "Oh but I use it and do just fine", you know you could have done way better with a much better gun.        

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

Idiots here think that spamming ultimates makes the game too easy and boring. 

I agree with the OP, also, with those of the opinion that the game encourages ult-spamming. Thinking about it, I honestly don't see how that's such a bad thing. 

[Jin_Lightning]

I don't think the issue is people pressing 4 to win, as there are situations that 4 (on certain frames) can turn the tide of battle

 

However, the people who ONLY press 4 are the issue.

This is usually how it goes with THOSE people.

 

1) Enter new room/hallway/area

2) See 1 enemy

3) Press 4

4) Rinse and repeat

 

I hate these people. Ruining the fun of others for your own personal gain.

Yes it helps the missions along, but seriously, you have other buttons on your keyboard (or controller)

 

-Jin

[KaynArgyr]

 when playing as a human being instead of a keyboard macro.

 

I would have agree'd with some of your points until you managed to say this.

 

I'll be honest: "What makes someone who spams his frame ultimate, less human than someone who doesn't?"

 

Isn't the human nature to find the easier path for anything?

 

You know, back in the days assembly lines' workers used to repeat the same action for thousands and thousands of times. Yes, I'm fully aware of the side effects that doing such a repetitive task brought on them, but remember:

 

First: They were still humans.

 

Second: They had to bring food on the table.

 

Skillspamming is the equivalent to Assembly Lines for this game. If you want to get some contents prime parts, and not buy them with real money, you need to farm and farm. You need to repeat the same missions over and over until the insane RNG put up by DE will bless you with the drop you need. Or you give up and purchase them. And it's alrighty, because I understand DE wants people hooked to the game. Because I understand that when we trade Prime Parts for Platinum there's someone, somewhere, who had bought it. DE needs to bring food to the table too.

 

Granted, I would be the first to take into consideration a monthly subscription if DE accepted to change some politics and give us a human RNG on drops. But as long as they don't and claim that the game can be played for Free, then none of us has the right to comment on those people who decide to pass large part of their days hunting fro some Prime Part. And they are still Human Beings Sure, it's not healthy, sure even for me isn't a fun thing, but its their choice. Repeating the same mission, over and over, doesn't make things different despite spamming 4 or not. You're not enjoying the game, but just doing mechanical (Less or more complex) chores until a certain result shows up.

 

If Mr. Sinclair (Just in case, I'm using this as a form or respect for a professional.) wants people to not use Homer's Drinking Bird, then the Grindwalls need to be lowered.

 

To be fair, Homer came up with the Drinking Bird idea to address the issues from a boring and repetitive job in that Simpson's episode. (Which, if memory serves well, is when he decided to become obese to work at home.) Which may be indicative of why people spams 4.

[SirSlayer]

The biggest problem DE has, is one they _designed_ themselves.

The powerlevel of the frames was from the very beginning way too high. It has always been 4 TO SMASH EVERYTHING.

 

Imho, if they want a more engaging experience - we need more challenges not silly stuff.

'Nerf' all frames hard, or better yet replace all 4's abilites and reduce the overall powerlevel of the game (including a giant adjustment to the enemys).

 

edit: bandaid fix solution which DE prefers would be to implement appropriate cooldown on skills.

Edited December 18, 2014 by SirSlayer