Accuracy 2.0; Or, How To Fix Sniping

[Wurdyburd]

Had this idea while reading over concepts from ThePresident777's thread here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/371539-sniping/
There are some good ideas, but don't ultimately fix the core mechanic of sniping.

 

Snipers have always been second fiddle to every other gun in the game, because despite wildly varying values, between 100 accuracy on sniper rifles, and beam weapons... and Torid... and Miter... etc, having 'perfect' accuracy on a long-range sniper rifle still doesn't account for the fact that a Boltor Prime, at 50 accuracy, can still out-gun a Lanka, even in the largest of maps, simply by projectile-vomiting as much ammo as it can. You're still likely to kill a mass of enemies faster than a single sniper could.

 

So, I propose a new system, one to fix these systems and make both sniper rifles and even shotguns better at their respective ranges, all wrapped up in a package to be dubbed Accuracy 2.0

 

Simply put: Change the accuracy of the gun to reflect what it's aiming at.

All guns use the same targeting reticle. By aiming with the single dot in the center of the screen, we can hit with a target with pinpoint accuracy from 100 yards with a Latron Prime with 28.6 accuracy as a Lanka with 100 accuracy.

However, if the targeting circle was to expand in size, while increasing the variable drift of a bullet, based on how far away from the shooter the target is, gun aim would be far more reflective of the gun's true qualities. We already have the system in place; certain Warframe abilities won't allow use unless within a certain range, a range that's constantly calculated and are activated when the target is in specific range, if you walk towards the target while mashing the respective button. It's also reflected in how Field of View blurs out whatever is too close, or two far away, from your reticle when aiming.

 

Lower accuracy guns would have a much shorter range at which they could achieve relatively perfect accuracy, whereas sniper rifles would suffer no penalty. It would also help prevent high fire-rate guns from simply standing still and holding the trigger while spinning, taking out hordes of enemies without actually taking the time to aim.

Moreover, shotguns would benefit as well; even with their low range of perfect accuracy, it would mean that far more pellets hit the target they're aiming for, rather than just unloading shells into empty air and hoping that they hit something.

 

It would also allow more diverse gameplay; currently, the ability to shoot straight is universal across all guns. A heavy machine gun has just as much aiming potential at long range than a rifle does. But what if heavy machine guns were limited to short/mid-range, and attempting long-range combat was just a waste of bullets? Lower damage output rifles would have a clearer advantage to bullet efficiency, and could afford to hang back, take cover, and not risk themselves as much.

 

Some examples: Effective Range is the range in which no penalty is observed, while Range Penalty is potential amount of drift distance of bullet aimed at a target beyond Effective Range

Weapon  |   Current Accuracy   |   (New) Effective Range   |   (New) Range Penalty

Lanka                 100.0                            400m                          minus 1m/20m after

Vectis                   13.3                            300m                                   -1m/30m after

Boltor Prime         50.0                            50m                                     -1m/3m

Soma                   28.6                            40m                                     -1m/10m

Latron Prime        28.6                            70m                                     -1m/15m

Boar Prime           5.0                              20m                                     -1/5m

Strun                    4.0                              10m                                     -1/10m

 

These of course would not be final values, but show that

-comparing the two snipers, the Lanka has better range, but more falloff than the Vectis, making the Vectis better at mid- to long-range kills, whereas the Lanka excels at killing targets long before they could become a problem.

-Out of the rifles, the Boltor Prime has decent range, but has a heavy falloff, making it unpredictable not much further, reasonable for a gun that jitters so much. The Soma has a lower range, but has much a more gradual falloff; at longer ranges it's still less practical, but does better than the shorter-range murder tool of the Boltor Prime.

-The Latron Prime, as a semi-automatic rifle, has a greater range than the high fire-rate weapons, practical for precise shots, but not so far as to be used in a situation where a sniper would be better. It's slower falloff makes longer-range shots more precise than the faster guns though.

 

Of course, such penalties to aim could be remedied by mods.

Iron Sights: increases rifle Effective Range, but with a slight increase to Range Penalty

Laser Sight: decreases rifle Range Penalty

Rifled Barrel: increases pistol Effective Range, and decreases Range Penalty

Packed Shot: increases shotgun Effective Range, but with a increase to Range Penalty

 

 

TL;DR: Accuracy is a horridly used stat in Warframe, and doesn't represent Warframe's vast library of firearms and cold-weapons 'accurately' enough. As a result high fire-rate rifles outshine snipers and shotguns at every turn, and every range. Simply adding damage to snipers and shotguns won't fix the problem that's represented in two weapon groups who's niches involve range. We need a new range system, one that decreases the usefulness of rifles without making them weaker.

[Entari0]

if i understand correctly, you want to assign each gun in the game a conal aoe in which its bullets get spewed, with sniper type weapons having thinner ones, machine guns having a wider one, and shotgus having a really wide one? if so , I think i agree. if not, please correct me.

[-DM-Mordred]

The problem with snipers is what are they designed for and what does this game require. Snipers are designed to take out one important target at a time, while this game requieres several targets down as fast as possible, therefore, snipers are kinda useless. Besides, this game is mostly close quarter combat (excepting for a few cases), so theres no need of long-range guns.

 

In other words, if one of your squadmates climbed to a high position and sniped heavy gunners, ancient healers and such in a void defense.... that would be really cool, even though it wouldnt be as effective as the same squadmate using a BP to clean the whole room with one magazine.

[Althran]

Good ideas, but the mod suggestions sound like they should just stay an innate part of the weapon. 

[Sziklamester]

The idea is good but this could be viable after they revise the stealth gameplay. The actualy stealth gameplay is better than what had before but still not on the right way. In a fast paced game there is no chance to sniping everything because the spawning is teribble and they can easily detect you because of randomity. With sniper not ideal run around the map and shooting back so before they need design missions or change the ai behaviour and rationalize the spawn points.

[Lluid]

If I understood well, you want this spread mechanism : gun<

...to become this one : gun---<

...with a "perfect accuracy zone" depending on the gun.

 

I'm not a fan of that, because that doesn't seem valid from a physical point of view. I'm not saying the game should be realistic, but it should feel logical. The current cone of spreading just seems more logical.

 

If anything, snipers would become useful if there were :

- more maps allowing range

- more enemies that can harm you from far away. (imagine a drone that sends nullifier's bubbles at you from 50m away)

[Althran]

 

- more enemies that can harm you from far away. (imagine a drone that sends nullifier's bubbles at you from 50m away)

[Wurdyburd]

if i understand correctly, you want to assign each gun in the game a conal aoe in which its bullets get spewed, with sniper type weapons having thinner ones, machine guns having a wider one, and shotgus having a really wide one? if so , I think i agree. if not, please correct me.

That's effectively what I'm describing, though the bullet drift wouldn't be so extreme as to call it a cone. All weapons without perfect accuracy have some conical margin of inaccuracy. What I'm suggesting is like having two cones; a primary cone in which accuracy is nearly 100%, and a second cone after a set distance that would would have a different value; after that distance, accuracy drift drops off significantly.

 

The problem with snipers is what are they designed for and what does this game require. Snipers are designed to take out one important target at a time, while this game requieres several targets down as fast as possible, therefore, snipers are kinda useless. Besides, this game is mostly close quarter combat (excepting for a few cases), so theres no need of long-range guns.

 

In other words, if one of your squadmates climbed to a high position and sniped heavy gunners, ancient healers and such in a void defense.... that would be really cool, even though it wouldnt be as effective as the same squadmate using a BP to clean the whole room with one magazine.

Most maps would need to be remodelled to support stealth gameplay in the first place, so changes to support longer-range gameplay shouldn't be that difficult.

Defense matches could have a kind of sniper tower, from which snipers could see the entire map; their defense of the pod itself would be limited, but they could pick off high-damage targets before they ever become a hazard.

 

Good ideas, but the mod suggestions sound like they should just stay an innate part of the weapon. 

I just didn't include the values. Iron Sights would extend the rifle's E.Range, for example by 10m (Soma would go from 40m to 50m), and it's R.Penalty would become -1/9m instead of -1/10m, making it's falloff slightly worse past that 50m.

 

The idea is good but this could be viable after they revise the stealth gameplay. The actualy stealth gameplay is better than what had before but still not on the right way. In a fast paced game there is no chance to sniping everything because the spawning is teribble and they can easily detect you because of randomity. With sniper not ideal run around the map and shooting back so before they need design missions or change the ai behaviour and rationalize the spawn points.

Stealth is more confined to claustrophibic maps, but I see no reason why two players couldn't cause a distraction, causing enemies to reroute from spawn points, while two other players stealthed through the now-lower population hallways. A sniper position would be great at holding off enemies from a secure position and causing a distraction.

[Althran]

I just didn't include the values. Iron Sights would extend the rifle's E.Range, for example by 10m (Soma would go from 40m to 50m), and it's R.Penalty would become -1/9m instead of -1/10m, making it's falloff slightly worse past that 50m.

The thing about that is, while it would be nice to have soma's range (or any other weapon's range for that matter) increased, I don't think that it would be worth it to take up a mod slot.  Perhaps a different utility slot could be added as a supplement along with these mods.  I just don't see replacing any of my precious damage mods for +10 falloff distance meters.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Althran

[Wurdyburd]

If I understood well, you want this spread mechanism : gun<

...to become this one : gun---<

...with a "perfect accuracy zone" depending on the gun.

I'm not a fan of that, because that doesn't seem valid from a physical point of view. I'm not saying the game should be realistic, but it should feel logical. The current cone of spreading just seems more logical.

Most things in this game aren't of physical probability. My intent is that some weapons are easier to aim at close range, such as shotguns; shotguns are considerably effective at short ranges, but their accuracy in Warframe doesn't reflect that well. It's a challenge to hit a single enemy with every pellet even at point-blank range, whereas a normal shotgun is effective up to 10-15 feet or more without missing with a pellet. We could just tighten the spread of shotguns, but that wouldn't reflect that shotguns are harder to aim at longer ranges, because no scope, recoil, and "point, pull, boom".

 

As it stands in this game, any weapon you can aim accurately at 20m, you can aim accurately at 100m, or 200m. Sniper rifles have a much longer range of accuracy, but their fire rate doesn't help them, and so it isn't a reasonable tradeoff. Buffing damage doesn't help either because you simply can't kill everything fast enough, even with consistent 1-hit KOs. 

In real life, guns can be easy to aim at closer ranges, while difficult at farther ranges. Pistols, for example.

[Wurdyburd]

The thing about that is, while it would be nice to have soma's range (or any other weapon's range for that matter) increased, I don't think that it would be worth it to take up a mod slot.  Perhaps a different utility slot could be added as a supplement along with these mods.  I just don't see replacing any of my precious damage mods for +10 falloff distance meters.

This would likely plug in to the Utility slot changes that are often discussed on the forums. Perhaps a Scope slot, or mod category, similar to how the noise reduction mods would all be in the Silencer category.

 

As far as damage goes, you're not actually LOSING any damage, you're just decreasing the range that the damage is effective. This prevents a player from sniping across a map with a Lex, or dealing ridiculous damage with a Soma towards a door that enemies can't even assume position to fire without being gunned down.

 

Lower-range guns also promotes a more claustrophobic gameplay, which means use of abilities, pistols, and melee weapons will all become considerably more viable alternatives to using a gun 100% of the time. It also creates more strategic gameplay; snipers will become invaluable to dealing with high-damage enemies farther off so that the decreased-range guns won't risk themselves, while enemy snipers will become a legitimate danger to player survival, and dealt with quickly, perhaps from your own sniper.

[tomrair]

I kinda like your idea, but if you want to promote sniper gameplay, I think changes in the map design and enemy behavior are an ultimately better way to achieve it. It's always useful to look at how other games are doing it, TF2 for example. Here, you got the Heavy, a slow-moving, lead-spewing behemoth that can only be taken out effectively by a sniper or a spy. If we had something like this in Warframe, we would see more snipers in the field.

 

So maps and enemies are imho more important than gun physics. The antagonists in Warframe are pretty dumb anyway, their AI definitely needs an overhaul and more variety in behavior patterns.

 

And for heaven's sake DE, make the colour of the recticle customizable! Whenever I'm doing void missions with my vectis, half of the time I can't see where I'm bloody aiming at!

[Wurdyburd]

I kinda like your idea, but if you want to promote sniper gameplay, I think changes in the map design and enemy behavior are an ultimately better way to achieve it. It's always useful to look at how other games are doing it, TF2 for example. Here, you got the Heavy, a slow-moving, lead-spewing behemoth that can only be taken out effectively by a sniper or a spy. If we had something like this in Warframe, we would see more snipers in the field.

So maps and enemies are imho more important than gun physics. The antagonists in Warframe are pretty dumb anyway, their AI definitely needs an overhaul and more variety in behavior patterns.

Without needing to remodel every tileset or add collection of rooms specifically designed for sniping though, accuracy needs to be fixed. On said sniping maps, you can still use a Boltor Prime to hit everything a Lanka can, and faster. Also, adding rooms specifically for sniping, rather than fixing the game in it's entirety, would make sniping feel canned, pre-defined, and not open to strategy. The player would be handed an experience that read, "oh, it's the sniper room, better get to that one spot in the entire tileset that'll make my Lanka a valuable team asset, and even then will make me stationary".

 

In TF2, the effective ranges are WILDLY lower than Warframe's. It's nearly impossible to hit anything with a Heavy gun past maybe 30ft, but that doesn't matter since most of TF2 is designed to be narrow hallways, tight corners, places where the enemy can't run. Much of Warframe is the same, and that's why snipers don't work; just like in TF2, you wouldn't set up a sniper at one end of a hallway, because every other enemy could rush and kill him faster than he could potentially kill them. He simply can't shoot fast enough if he misses, and certainly not accurately.

 

As far as enemy physics go, the game used to be much, much smarter, before DE adapted a "zerg rush" AI, featuring many more enemies with lower overall intelligence. DE can't fix the AI without decreasing the number of enemies.

[letir]

I'm using Soma with HC. It's pretty innaccurate on the distance... but who cares? Most of maps have small or medium rooms with narrow corridors, range isn't needed. Accuracy isn't matter right now.

[Wurdyburd]

I'm using Soma with HC. It's pretty innaccurate on the distance... but who cares? Most of maps have small or medium rooms with narrow corridors, range isn't needed. Accuracy isn't matter right now.

Except with the extra damage, you need fewer bullets to kill the enemy, so using more bullets to hit them evens it out a little. Even then, it's not so hugely inaccurate that you can't hit a guy from a mile out with less than 30 bullets.

 

The issue with accuracy as I've presented it, is that both long-range, slow, and highly accurate rifles, and shotguns of all kinds, are niches in this game, because they exist at the extremes of the range spectrum. Per your statement, should not shotguns be the king in this game, due to the small/medium rooms with narrow corridors? Yet shotguns are some of the worst weapons in the game. Also, most of Warframe's maps are more mid-range, which is where automatic rifles excel. You say yourself that you use a Soma.

Because automatic rifles are so stupidly accurate at longer ranges, and can spray-and-pray at shorter ranges, there isn't a range that they can do badly in, whereas snipers can't muster the fire rate to do well at almost any range, especially not up close, and shotguns aren't effective at medium or long range.

 

Simply buffing the damage of these weapons isn't enough to fix them, because they're range-niches. Range-niches are effected by accuracy. With automatic rifles effective at all ranges, why ever use the guns more specialized for certain ranges?

Decreasing the effective range of automatic rifles won't make them worse, it'll just solidify the md-range combat that they're intended to be used at, leaving the door open for shotguns to fill close-range and snipers to fill long-range.