Recent Nerfs

[GTG3000]

Like so?

 

Yeah. Think the cotton candy is still too OP?

[Argoms]

Yeah. Think the cotton candy is still too OP?

Look at my gun, look at yours, eyes back on mine. Sadly, my gun is not your gun... But it could taste like mine!

[Bierkasten]

I just feel like that falloff was the wrong way to go. Shotgun pellets don't  "vanish" after a few metres.

 

The boar is fine with the falloff, it was always meant as a close range annihilation machine.

 

The strun I don't use, but I imagine it was hit pretty heavily.

 

And last the hek, which was hit the hardest if you ask me. The hek is not meant for close combat. The spread is too small and the clip, too. If you really want the hek to be a less snipey weapon, increase the spread. What will this do? It will decrease the potential for "true" sniping (enemies in cover), while retaining the ability to pick off targets taht are in the open at long ranges, because currently shogun are currently just melee weapons with slightly higher dps but a reload.

[Argoms]

Just in case anyone is actively avoiding all threads with hek in the title, I'd like to post my proposal for the hek here:

Basically, the pellets start to spread at 12m or so instead of at the muzzle of your gun, but don't do much damage until they start to spread.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Argoms

[GTG3000]

Just in case anyone is actively avoiding all threads with hek in the title, I'd like to post my proposal for the hek here:

Basically, the pellets start to spread at 12m or so instead of at the muzzle of your gun, but don't do much damage until they start to spread.

 

CLUSTERGUN

I guess just making them spread like that from the beginning would make it work? And don't know about you, but using hek at close range is a bit of a hussle for me as is.

 

Also, looks a bit like gyrojet suggestion. :)

Edited May 1, 2013 by GTG3000

[Argoms]

The thing is, the hek is a rank 4 shotgun, so it should be something special. If we have it as a regular old shotgun firing a spread of weak pellets, it either ends up outclassing every other shotgun (not good, DE is going for sidegrades regardless of mastery requirement), or feels like a disappointment to those who finally get it. 

 

Alternatively, it could fire bolts, that'd be pretty fun. 

Edited May 1, 2013 by Argoms

[HanShotFirst]

I've just gotta ask, is part of the hang up on the Hek simply that it's classified as a "shotgun"?

 

Would those of you who were upset with its previous status and performance (aka: pre-nerf) be less up in arms if it were re-classified as a "rifle"?

 

Seems to me there's less focus on balancing the Hek as yet another weapon in the Warframe universe, and more emphasis on "it's a SHOTGUN, it shouldn't do (fill in the blank)".

[Argoms]

 

I've just gotta ask, is part of the hang up on the Hek simply that it's classified as a "shotgun"?

 

Would those of you who were upset with its previous status and performance (aka: pre-nerf) be less up in arms if it were re-classified as a "rifle"?

 

Seems to me there's less focus on balancing the Hek as yet another weapon in the Warframe universe, and more emphasis on "it's a SHOTGUN, it shouldn't do (fill in the blank)".

 

Shotguns do more damage than rifles, but have less effective range. Calling the hek a rifle would just mean that it's a rifle weapon with the damage of a shotgun, instead of a shotgun with the range of a rifle. Both are equally bad.

[HanShotFirst]

Shotguns do more damage than rifles, but have less effective range. Calling the hek a rifle would just mean that it's a rifle weapon with the damage of a shotgun, instead of a shotgun with the range of a rifle. Both are equally bad.

 

 

If you're merely looking at damage/range (btw, we really should be saying "accuracy" rather than "range" but whatever), then every rifle would have to be considered grossly inferior to the Snipetron.

 

Clearly there are more factors to balancing than that, such as fire rate, clip size, reload speed, etc..

 

Giving the Hek a ridiculous falloff simply because "it's a shotgun" rather than addressing *any* of those other stats is kinda ridiculous. 

[Argoms]

 

If you're merely looking at damage/range (btw, we really should be saying "accuracy" rather than "range" but whatever), then every rifle would have to be considered grossly inferior to the Snipetron.

 

Clearly there are more factors to balancing than that, such as fire rate, clip size, reload speed, etc..

 

Giving the Hek a ridiculous falloff simply because "it's a shotgun" rather than addressing *any* of those other stats is kinda ridiculous. 

 

We're saying range because shotguns have a falloff mechanic that automatically reduces their damage past a certain range. The snipetron can only do damage in bursts, and is bad at sustained dps. It's also much less forgiving than a shotgun/automatic in terms of aiming (pellet spread means a miss can result in some spray shot clipping the target), missing a single shot makes you lose 25% of the damage you could've done in that magazine. Even then, the snipetron can't put out anywhere near as much damage as the hek, and has a lengthy reload time between magazines. 

Braton:

Fire rate: 11.3

Damage: 17

Reload speed: 2.3

Dps (excluding reloads): 192.1

Damage over 10 seconds: 1496

 

Snipetron:

Fire rate: 1.5

Damage: 100

Reload speed: 3.8

Dps (excluding reloads): 150

Damage over 10 seconds: 800

 

Hek:

Fire rate: 2.2

Damage: 140

Reload speed: 2.15

Dps (excluding reloads): 308

Damage over 10 seconds: 1680

 

Hek does 40% more damage per shot, reloads in almost half the time, and fires slightly faster, resulting in over double the dps of a snipetron, and comes out on top in sustained dps too (and beats a braton, which I'm using as a baseline). So even if we forgot about range/recoil, the snipetron cannot beat other guns in sustained dps, while the hek can.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Argoms

[MoonicusMaximus]

 

If you're merely looking at damage/range (btw, we really should be saying "accuracy" rather than "range" but whatever), then every rifle would have to be considered grossly inferior to the Snipetron.

 

Clearly there are more factors to balancing than that, such as fire rate, clip size, reload speed, etc..

 

Giving the Hek a ridiculous falloff simply because "it's a shotgun" rather than addressing *any* of those other stats is kinda ridiculous. 

 

Changing any of those balancing factors instead of the Heks optimal range would still allow it to maintain shotgun-level instantaneous damage at rifle ranges with shotgun ammunition economy. Unless the changes were so drastic as to gut the Hek completely and leave only the damage and its optimal range in-tact, small reductions to magazine size, fire rate, reload speed, etc. would end up not even mattering in the least.

 

The damage falloff point was an attempt at fixing shotguns to what DE undoubtedly originally envisioned them to be in Warframe, as they are in several other games; high damage, short range. Sure, there were plenty of other way to reduce the effectiveness of the shotgun class, but other than dramatically increasing the pellet spread so that shots deal fractional damage against distant targets (which happens already in the new shotgun distance falloff system anyway), none of the fixes to magazine size or fire rate and so on would have reduced the optimal ranges into what DE supposedly intended for the weapon class.

[HanShotFirst]

Right. And most other weapons can be purchased at Rank 1, outright, for mere credits. The Hek requires Rank 4, and is obtainable only via crafting or platinum.

 

But again, though I *do* consider that significant, that's not my primary objection. It's that DE did *not* balance the Hek with other weapons (such as the Braton/Snipetron) by adjusting its damage, accuracy, reload speed, etc., but rather gave it a blanket falloff nerf. (And P.S.: @MoonicusMaximus, I've never said reducing the Hek's damage or optimal range were off the table for discussion - I'm not exactly sure why you're assuming otherwise.)

 

There is simply no reasonable justification for the higher rank/credit/platinum requirements anymore - unless you're relegating the Hek to mere a status symbol or for having some sort of intrinsic cosmetic value. The Hek does NOT fill a niche (or reflect its description in the Market). It is no longer significantly more effective than the Strun, or even the Bronco. And both of which can be acquired for far less commitment/investment/effort.

 

Do I personally believe the Hek should outperform other weapons (again, such as the Braton/Snipetron)? Frankly, yes, so long as the barrier of entry remains as it is. Do I think it shouldn't be balanced at all? No, of course not. Don't be silly. But again, I'd rather elements such as rate of fire, clip size, etc. be considered first and foremost instead of this one-size-fits-all "solution". 

 

Another thing to consider; what if DE elects to introduce other Rank 4 (or possibly even greater) weapons? Would we even still be having this discussion if there was a higher ranking Braton or Snipetron equivalent?

[Captator]

Don't agree.  The problem with your suggestion is that the only real 'armored' enemies are Grineer and Corpus Mecha (with their shields).  That leaves the Hek still massively OP. If the Dev's don't want you to snipe with it, reverting it to before and adding in some new mechanic that doesn't exist right now just complicates it for no reason.  

 

I understand that people with leveled Heks want their killing machines back, but if it was singularly the best primary weapon for all occasions, then it was simply OP.  Better to stick with this nerf than make it OP again and add stagger to Grineer and shielded enemies, making it even more OP.

 

At least my suggestion has a trade-off for making it accurate again that might make another weapon as viable or preferable depending on the situation.  An alternative might be that shotgun-style weaponry simply doesn't do AP no matter what, so that it's nearly useless vs Grineer and shielded enemies.  Then you'd likely only take it on Infested missions.  But there's already an AP mod for shotguns so rather than taking something away, I suggest adding something new that is of benefit to everyone.

 

My suggestion may not be the best solution, but it's better than asking the Dev's to just make the Hek even more OP.  They're never going to bite on that.

 

You seem to have just listed most of the types of unit (Grineer, Corpus) in the game, as if they are in the minority... you also forgot ancient disruptor/healor/toxic which are all armoured. So, your first point disproves itself.

 

In fact, the only way you 'keep' close to the 'OP' damage with my suggestion is if you are really accurate with every single shot into a critical location, so the armour is low enough that the AP falloff doesn't hurt so much. If you actually read what I said, stagger was just a suggestion to make up for what would amount to trivial damage at range with the AP falloff, making a shotgun user able to survive long enough to get close so their weapon can actually go through enough armour to tickle an enemy. So in what sense would my suggestion leave Hek overpowered if I am suggesting a new mechanic just to keep it viable (and to a lesser extent, the other shotguns, because the mechanic would have to affect them too)

 

All you achieve with your suggestions is to limit gameplay decisions by arbitrarily moving weapon stats onto modules, and failing to take the opportunity to expand gameplay styles. Your latest suggestion reaches about the same result as mine in most circumstances, but in a rather primitive and binary way (no AP => no damage to armoured).

[ArsVampyre]

You have a secondary weapon for a reason; balance the weaknesses of your chosen primary.

 

Shotguns are intended to be short-range weapons.  You're still wanting the Hek to be the only weapon you need, and that's the problem.  There shouldn't be one dominate weapon every player should use; that doesn't fit their apparent design philosophy.

 

But then, they're going to do 'something about the Hek to make it better again, so I guess I'm wrong.  I'll wait to see what they do to try to 'balance' it.

 

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[Captator]

You have a secondary weapon for a reason; balance the weaknesses of your chosen primary.

 

Shotguns are intended to be short-range weapons.  You're still wanting the Hek to be the only weapon you need, and that's the problem.  There shouldn't be one dominate weapon every player should use; that doesn't fit their apparent design philosophy.

 

But then, they're going to do 'something about the Hek to make it better again, so I guess I'm wrong.  I'll wait to see what they do to try to 'balance' it.

 

--------------

 

A more common understanding of a secondary weapon is just that; secondary. It is there for when you run out of ammo on your primary and don't have time to reload/really need that one guy dead.

 

You are also massively misunderstanding my standpoint; I don't give a rats &#! about shotguns in terms of my personal game experience, don't like them, don't use them much. That doesn't mean that I support making them a generic and low skill-capped weapon when they have the potential to be much more. The 'fix' they chose to implement was primitive and as I keep saying, diminishes gameplay. My suggestion might not be the epitome of expansion of balanced gameplay space, but it is balanced.

 

Going to give explaining my idea to you another shot, just in case it is actually opaque. In short, shotguns bad at long range and mediocre at mid range due to drop off in armour pierce, unless either lightly armoured enemy (roller, crawler, runner, the dog things) or bullseye on a critical location. This means shotguns feel realistically accurate, but behave largely as short and mid range weapons barring skill/luck. If armour pierce drop off is made too steep, possibly add slight stagger (possibly just fire interrupt) at mid range so shotgun user can survive to close space, or just rescale.

[Amistyrja]

Shotguns are intended to be short-range weapons.  You're still wanting the Hek to be the only weapon you need, and that's the problem.  

The Hek is intended to be short-mid range. We don't want the Hek to be the only weapon we need, we want to be able to defend ourselves  without having to rely on our Lex.

[GTG3000]

A more common understanding of a secondary weapon is just that; secondary. It is there for when you run out of ammo on your primary and don't have time to reload/really need that one guy dead.

 

You are also massively misunderstanding my standpoint; I don't give a rats &#! about shotguns in terms of my personal game experience, don't like them, don't use them much. That doesn't mean that I support making them a generic and low skill-capped weapon when they have the potential to be much more. The 'fix' they chose to implement was primitive and as I keep saying, diminishes gameplay. My suggestion might not be the epitome of expansion of balanced gameplay space, but it is balanced.

 

Going to give explaining my idea to you another shot, just in case it is actually opaque. In short, shotguns bad at long range and mediocre at mid range due to drop off in armour pierce, unless either lightly armoured enemy (roller, crawler, runner, the dog things) or bullseye on a critical location. This means shotguns feel realistically accurate, but behave largely as short and mid range weapons barring skill/luck. If armour pierce drop off is made too steep, possibly add slight stagger (possibly just fire interrupt) at mid range so shotgun user can survive to close space, or just rescale.

 

Think shotties need normal damage falloff as well as elemental AP? Or just elemental falloff would do the trick?

[Captator]

Think shotties need normal damage falloff as well as elemental AP? Or just elemental falloff would do the trick?

 

I think them just having AP falloff would fix all the issues of them (mainly Hek) being supposed long-range powerhouses, while still allowing skilled players to get somewhere close to where the Hek used to be if they always land their shots centred on critical locations (obviously beyond a certain range the shotgun spread would prevent this).

 

From what I have seen in play and streams, it is the AP that is the real source of the shotgun's high damage so having only elemental AP scale with range should be sufficient. An interesting secondary question is what decay curve should be used: linear, logarithmic, sigmoidal, exponential? :) I think linear would be sufficient, certainly for the Hek, but it might be interesting to differentiate the shotguns more by making the Boar exponentially decay, the Strun sigmoidal decay and the Hek linear decay.

[GTG3000]

I think them just having AP falloff would fix all the issues of them (mainly Hek) being supposed long-range powerhouses, while still allowing skilled players to get somewhere close to where the Hek used to be if they always land their shots centred on critical locations (obviously beyond a certain range the shotgun spread would prevent this).

 

From what I have seen in play and streams, it is the AP that is the real source of the shotgun's high damage so having only elemental AP scale with range should be sufficient. An interesting secondary question is what decay curve should be used: linear, logarithmic, sigmoidal, exponential? :) I think linear would be sufficient, certainly for the Hek, but it might be interesting to differentiate the shotguns more by making the Boar exponentially decay, the Strun sigmoidal decay and the Hek linear decay.

 

I guess decay patterns would require someone to test their feel. And yeah, I have suggested that same thing before (but my idea included changing armour values, so yours is better). Would be interesting, if different weapons introduced different mechanics to the elemental mods, but it would make sence for the shotguns to try that first, I guess.

Also, the problem with shotguns is also in the point blank/hell's chamber mods, that make heks' 180 base damage go straight through the roof, especially with such a tight spread.

Edited May 3, 2013 by GTG3000

[Deadmice]

I'd just like to say it here, the adjustment they just made to shotty damage pleases me, I can use the hek to its fullest in the range its good in

[Valasaxia]

+1

[Boatsniper]

+1

You're stupid.

[Notso]

I came here expecting to see  "OMG PvE GAME DON'T NERF ONLY BUFF!!!!111one!11 *cry*", but I was more than pleasantly surprised. I wish everybody that asked for a nerf to be reversed thought it through as thoroughly as your friend did. Kudos.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Notso

[Ced23Ric]

Locking ages-old thread not pertaining to current game version.

 

Please don't necromance old threads.