Press 4 To Win

[MechaKnight]

I hope I don't have to quote anyone to make this point, but...

 

Rifles can take down large numbers of enemies in a cone.  I pretty much always use punch through on all my weapons primarily because it just feels like there's something missing without punch through.  With that said, I can almost prove that using something like a Boltor P or Latron P can wipe out more enemies faster than a person can nuke given the proper conditions.

 

This thread has been going on for so long I've forgotten the main point the anti-P42W guys are trying to make.  Are we talking only nuking abilities?  Or are we also talking any power that pretty much allows the team to win?  Cuz, to me, Nyx's Chaos is an "I Win" power.

 

I honestly have to say that I don't spam my nuke abilities.  I primarily use Rhino, Ash, and Limbo, of which Rhino Stomp has a cool down, Ash has an amount of time that Blade Storm is working of which players can still take down Blade Storm targets, and Limbo doesn't have any ability to nuke, whatsoever.  I've used Frost and Volt, too, but Frost's nuke has no utility so it makes him vulnerable to any enemies that survived, and Volt's nuke has great utility but isn't very powerful except with the right environment.

 

Someone anti-P42W please answer my questions this time.  I even underlined it.  None of my questions are rhetorical, and I still would like a player who left to weigh in on this topic, and whether they'd come back if nuke powers were nerfed.

 

It's really just damage nukes. Other supportive abilities still allow players to join in by using their weapons or using their own abilities afterwards. A few nukes in the game are pretty balanced--Rhino's Stomp already has a cooldown when it doesn't kill on first hit, which is pretty fair. Ash has a limitation of speed. However there are still powers that kill which do so instantly without either limitation.

 

Most of us here neither want nuke powers to be nerfed, nor do we want them gone. It is simply understood that unless endless content is considered, enemies frequently die to one hit of just about anything we can dish out. At least for the current limitation of levels on nodes in the game. Nuke abilities are simply a majorly superior option when it comes to hitting everything in the room at once. Hence why they tend to win in most nodes and gamemodes. We only have 3 infinite gamemodes, and from the Nova Prime + weapons prime farming, it's clear the developers just stacked those 3 infinite game modes as often on that list as they could.

 

I suppose some of us are simply tired of most gameplay on most nodes and missions being solved with one button and removing player participation since there's nothing to fight or hit anymore. Others are probably waiting out a lull in the action where the focus of gameplay is split between farming the lowest level missions we can farm for optimal profit gains, and farming void for ducats. We would probably stop saying the game is "press 4 to win" if gameplay rewards leaned more towards challenge seeking than towards farming the lowest level content you can.

 

The solution to "press 4 to win" is probably expand the game with a difficulty selection system, solar system expansion, and additional reward scaling on later planet nodes that actually makes it a decent idea to chase those later planet missions. I still want current rewards on early planets to stay the same however and not be reduced.

Edited January 13, 2015 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

Sooo...apparently the Viver incident was more recent, and during the time I had no machine.  Would you or someone please provide a synopsis of what the Viver incident was all about?

 

Oh boy here's a story to remember. The days developers looked evil/lazy, the players looked like greedy robots, and the days where ability spamming took on an appearance of pure evil for many people that day.

 

I don't remember how long ago it was. I don't remember how long it was. It felt like weeks of farming, probably was.

 

The day syndicates and their shops were released, everyone was gleeful to browse the list and discuss strategies of which one was best and who should pick what syndicate to balance out our friends. The daily limit was not instated at all back then, you could farm infinite points per day.

 

To the horror of many players, we only got an average of 20-250 points per mission or such. The reputation numbers per rank and cost of everything on that list are the exact same you see now. We knew that at this rate, it would take literal months to win your first piece of anything on that list, and it could take a year to make appreciable progress across syndicates. Every syndicate point was very valuable. Especially when normal missions would need only a few hundred points, and any given syndicate required at least 372k to max out.

 

So we got to thinking. What's the best way to get syndicate points? Some of us learned it was tied to the affinity system. Some more of us pinpointed what affinity was targeted to scale reputation from. Then some others put together a plan... a plan to get the most affinity possible in the shortest amount of time, and even possibly automate it.

 

The syndicate system was accidentally the birth of widespread power farming. Bulldoze unimaginable heaps of enemies faster than ever humanly witnessed before this time. Get as many people well informed to beat the oppressive system as you can before it will require months of time to max a single syndicate's reputation.

 

So we banded together and broke this game's affinity system so hard people outside of Warframe heard about it. The players became nothing but ability-spamming robots standing in one spot for hours at a time either pressing 4 manually, or getting macros to do it. We disgusted heaps of people from ever playing the game, and it took a toll on those within the game as well. We got angry at the grind, felt betrayed by developers, and questioned why we cared about these rewards. The first mods people acquired easily sold for 600 platinum or more each. At least the good ones did.

 

So the developers panicked and nerfed three warframes instantly. They did so by addition of line-of-sight on abilities. While it was working better than the first iteration they mistakenly released on Excalibur's Radial Blind for a day, it was still defective and clunky enough to bother people. The abilities were just as spam-capable, but some arbitrary "did he see me?" mechanic took place to determine whether or not the enemy was effected. Although the radial nukes didn't suffer so badly, Trinity's Energy Vampire was considerably affected by the need for both Trinity and the recipient to have been seen by the enemy and vice versa. At least, the game needed to know you had line-of-sight with the enemy, and the link lasted behind all cover for 5 seconds.

 

Eventually the developers took back their changes and improved the syndicate system to be as good as it is now. However from that day we birthed a meta of radial nuke spam and power farming that barely existed before. Rushing gameplay with coptering and nukes became standard.

 

The developers want to limit the game for some reasons, and some players don't like the game looking this broken and unfinished. The most obvious options would be to limit abilities with cooldowns or line-of-sight, but I suppose a system of difficulty selections could work too. It's all very murky water to really understand. Players want a more fulfilling and fun game, but are simultaneously now paranoid of any developer additions to the game for fear that it will just become one massive grind. Additionally, a bunch of us are painfully aware of how little game there actually is since we are so immensely powerful, and we've been like this since corrupted mods raised our limits.

 

I think it's safe to say we all collectively want to have fun and trust the developers. The obvious problem is we can totally strip this game to the foundation of an empty room with nukes, and will do it any time the developers implement bad reward systems. We also want the game to expand in ways that are fun, so we can experience both new gameplay and new rewards. However, the current solar system is getting kinda stale, as is the lack of challenge and lack of incentive to play with challenge.

 

If we want abilities to stay the same, a difficulty option and additional difficulty scaling is our best bet to do it. Maybe a solar system expansion too. The developers do want the gameplay to have some structure, and the cycle of grind the game is starting to resemble would be alleviated by enticing rewards behind optional challenge.

Edited January 13, 2015 by MechaKnight

[Thaumatos]

With that said, I can almost prove that using something like a Boltor P or Latron P can wipe out more enemies faster than a person can nuke given the proper conditions.

I can definitely 

it doesn't.

 

Where is your rifle that does this?

 

This is bugged xcal.  Watch a Saryn do it, it's even more damage, costs less energy, requires no consumables, and has a lower cast time.  On a frame with higher base HP and armor.

 

Tell me nukes don't need to be nerfed by proving to me that somehow your Boltor Prime does this.

 

Sooo...apparently the Viver incident was more recent, and during the time I had no machine.  Would you or someone please provide a synopsis of what the Viver incident was all about?

Watch the video.  This is what people were doing in Viver.  Now they're doing it in Draco.

 

 

Really, I'm not for or against P42W.  I'm for the choice to choose how you play.  Nerfing nukes won't change my full stealth Ash, my Iron Shrapnel 100% ragdoll, or Limbo in any way. 

Cheaters play the way they want to play.  Why are they looked down upon?

 

If I want to nuke an entire map and win in 2 seconds, how come I cant?

 

This "play your way" argument is bogus.  You play within the confines of the game.  Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

If you've got max'd equipment and then go run mid-tier missions, it's supposed to be a cakewalk :-P

Draco starts at 35-37.  After a couple of rounds, you're in T4 territory.  Tell me how that is a mid-tier mission.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thaumatos

[OniDax]

They should just add cooldowns to the 4th ability again (maybe even buff them but increase the cooldown) and deal with the "slower" gameplay. They could even make them like the current Syndicate elemental abilities.

[Azawarau]

They should just add cooldowns to the 4th ability again (maybe even buff them but increase the cooldown) and deal with the "slower" gameplay. They could even make them like the current Syndicate elemental abilities.

If they were to have a cooldown theyd have to be heavily buffed or reworked entirely

 

I dont mind if its just the ults with a super buff but it has to be done right

 

It actually gives reason to make things insanely OP but still fair

[AlphaHorseman]

The problem with "press 4 to win" is it's the easiest way to hit everything in the map constantly. The problem with the game on a larger aspect is that we have so much ability, yet no place to challenge us except infinite missions. We would play on higher level planets, but other than Dark Sector participation for credits, there is no incentive to play on higher level planets except for the rare alert or syndicate mission. The most rewarding locations for gameplay are in the void, and a good nuke build will carry you through all tiers unless you're in unlimited missions such as defense, interception, and survival.

 

In short, the game is press 4 to win because there's not much else to do except grind easy content where any hit from us is lethal to all enemies. Higher level nodes and Nightmare modes don't get much use for obvious reasons.

 

For more difficult content, we have to persistently stunlock to survive. At which point, we don't win when we press 4--it's practically necessary to stun enemies to survive.

 

Then, "press #" also presents an issue of "you only have one good ability, don't bother with the rest." Some warframes just don't get to use their kit due to efficiency of playstyle. Although Mag can get away with only losing one ability (Bullet Attractor), other warframes that neglect duration can lose all function of augments and abilities except for their best.

 

All of the above summarized: it wasn't a good idea to give us lazy passive abilities like this in the first place, then gear the game to constantly cater to it and at times force us to play like this in order to play well. Between the hyper-easy gameplay we have in most content, and the hectic stunlocking we have to perform in infinite content, the entire game is designed around the poorly planned prospect of spamming radials constantly. It's a fundamental flaw that reaches very far.

 

Remember that you can wipe the floor of any content with abilities or guns, when you mod for damage. Paris Prime, Dread, Boltor Prime can attest to that, and so can many other guns when modded for damage output. I'm not saying they do so the same, but an enemy can't harm you after you radial nuke and if they die (most likely they will if you're not doing endless content or are in lower level missions), neither could an enemy harm you when you raise your Boltor Prime with punch through maxed mods and tap the click key on your mouse. There's talk about nerfing guns just as much about nerfing WarFrame abilities, I'm not on the side for nerfing powers, you're not on the side for nerfing guns. So lets keep it like that and not try to nerf each other or say why we should nerf each other. Because, honestly, I hate nerfs, I think you hate nerfs, so let's not nerf our toys and make our enemies toys interesting to use our guns and powers on.

 

Sooo...apparently the Viver incident was more recent, and during the time I had no machine.  Would you or someone please provide a synopsis of what the Viver incident was all about?

 

Really, I'm not for or against P42W.  I'm for the choice to choose how you play.  Nerfing nukes won't change my full stealth Ash, my Iron Shrapnel 100% ragdoll, or Limbo in any way.  If nukes had more utility than damage, it would just mean that players have to shoot a little more, which doesn't really seem to change gameplay from what I've witnessed in myself or other players.

 

Again, however, if players are going to want the game to nerf all powers because the game got too easy after they finally obtained gear, frames, and mods that are pretty much endgame material, then the problem isn't the game, it's the attitude of the player.  If you've got max'd equipment and then go run mid-tier missions, it's supposed to be a cakewalk :-P

Thank you, especially for the bold.

 

It's really just damage nukes. Other supportive abilities still allow players to join in by using their weapons or using their own abilities afterwards. A few nukes in the game are pretty balanced--Rhino's Stomp already has a cooldown when it doesn't kill on first hit, which is pretty fair. Ash has a limitation of speed. However there are still powers that kill which do so instantly without either limitation.

 

Most of us here neither want nuke powers to be nerfed, nor do we want them gone. It is simply understood that unless endless content is considered, enemies frequently die to one hit of just about anything we can dish out. At least for the current limitation of levels on nodes in the game. Nuke abilities are simply a majorly superior option when it comes to hitting everything in the room at once. Hence why they tend to win in most nodes and gamemodes. We only have 3 infinite gamemodes, and from the Nova Prime + weapons prime farming, it's clear the developers just stacked those 3 infinite game modes as often on that list as they could.

 

I suppose some of us are simply tired of most gameplay on most nodes and missions being solved with one button and removing player participation since there's nothing to fight or hit anymore. Others are probably waiting out a lull in the action where the focus of gameplay is split between farming the lowest level missions we can farm for optimal profit gains, and farming void for ducats. We would probably stop saying the game is "press 4 to win" if gameplay rewards leaned more towards challenge seeking than towards farming the lowest level content you can.

 

The solution to "press 4 to win" is probably expand the game with a difficulty selection system, solar system expansion, and additional reward scaling on later planet nodes that actually makes it a decent idea to chase those later planet missions. I still want current rewards on early planets to stay the same however and not be reduced.

 

Read Night's post I just quoted, the bold should help you see why we feel that way. We're end tier gear guys, whatever we do in this game, be it using a gun or powers, is going to die on the spot. Nerfing one isn't going to help the other, we should be looking at helping both along and also improve enemy mechanics and AI to make them interesting to fight, not just the bullet sponges they are now.

 

Oh boy here's a story to remember. The days developers looked evil/lazy, the players looked like greedy robots, and the days where ability spamming took on an appearance of pure evil for many people that day.

 

I don't remember how long ago it was. I don't remember how long it was. It felt like weeks of farming, probably was.

 

The day syndicates and their shops were released, everyone was gleeful to browse the list and discuss strategies of which one was best and who should pick what syndicate to balance out our friends. The daily limit was not instated at all back then, you could farm infinite points per day.

 

To the horror of many players, we only got an average of 20-250 points per mission or such. The reputation numbers per rank and cost of everything on that list are the exact same you see now. We knew that at this rate, it would take literal months to win your first piece of anything on that list, and it could take a year to make appreciable progress across syndicates. Every syndicate point was very valuable. Especially when normal missions would need only a few hundred points, and any given syndicate required at least 372k to max out.

 

So we got to thinking. What's the best way to get syndicate points? Some of us learned it was tied to the affinity system. Some more of us pinpointed what affinity was targeted to scale reputation from. Then some others put together a plan... a plan to get the most affinity possible in the shortest amount of time, and even possibly automate it.

 

The syndicate system was accidentally the birth of widespread power farming. Bulldoze unimaginable heaps of enemies faster than ever humanly witnessed before this time. Get as many people well informed to beat the oppressive system as you can before it will require months of time to max a single syndicate's reputation.

 

So we banded together and broke this game's affinity system so hard people outside of Warframe heard about it. The players became nothing but ability-spamming robots standing in one spot for hours at a time either pressing 4 manually, or getting macros to do it. We disgusted heaps of people from ever playing the game, and it took a toll on those within the game as well. We got angry at the grind, felt betrayed by developers, and questioned why we cared about these rewards. The first mods people acquired easily sold for 600 platinum or more each. At least the good ones did.

 

So the developers panicked and nerfed three warframes instantly. They did so by addition of line-of-sight on abilities. While it was working better than the first iteration they mistakenly released on Excalibur's Radial Blind for a day, it was still defective and clunky enough to bother people. The abilities were just as spam-capable, but some arbitrary "did he see me?" mechanic took place to determine whether or not the enemy was effected. Although the radial nukes didn't suffer so badly, Trinity's Energy Vampire was considerably affected by the need for both Trinity and the recipient to have been seen by the enemy and vice versa. At least, the game needed to know you had line-of-sight with the enemy, and the link lasted behind all cover for 5 seconds.

 

Eventually the developers took back their changes and improved the syndicate system to be as good as it is now. However from that day we birthed a meta of radial nuke spam and power farming that barely existed before. Rushing gameplay with coptering and nukes became standard.

 

The developers want to limit the game for some reasons, and some players don't like the game looking this broken and unfinished. The most obvious options would be to limit abilities with cooldowns or line-of-sight, but I suppose a system of difficulty selections could work too. It's all very murky water to really understand. Players want a more fulfilling and fun game, but are simultaneously now paranoid of any developer additions to the game for fear that it will just become one massive grind. Additionally, a bunch of us are painfully aware of how little game there actually is since we are so immensely powerful, and we've been like this since corrupted mods raised our limits.

 

I think it's safe to say we all collectively want to have fun and trust the developers. The obvious problem is we can totally strip this game to the foundation of an empty room with nukes, and will do it any time the developers implement bad reward systems. We also want the game to expand in ways that are fun, so we can experience both new gameplay and new rewards. However, the current solar system is getting kinda stale, as is the lack of challenge and lack of incentive to play with challenge.

 

If we want abilities to stay the same, a difficulty option and additional difficulty scaling is our best bet to do it. Maybe a solar system expansion too. The developers do want the gameplay to have some structure, and the cycle of grind the game is starting to resemble would be alleviated by enticing rewards behind optional challenge.

 

The oppressive nature of the syndicate system made end game players find the most efficient way to grind for the absurd amount of points we had to get. Players hated that everything was so expensive, and we found the easiest way to get to our goals. It's one of those instances where the bad brought us low and we resorted to avenues that some of us wouldn't normally use. The option to spam abilities was there, as they always were, but it became the META during the time of the first iteration of Syndicates as people couldn't stand having to farm so much. Some people stuck with it, some people went back to how they played before.

 

But yes, I agree with adding a difficulty option and diversifying difficulty, not just bullet sponging everything, but actually giving them mechanics that slant our game play experience and make us really think and use our tools to overcome them.

[Nighttide77]

So...this whole time, I thought this thread was about nerfing some of the powers I enjoy that I thought were fairly balanced, like Rhino Stomp and Blade Storm (although Blade Storm being able to target enemies outside of LoS is honestly a little weird).  I had no idea there were powers that could be exploited until Thaumatos' response....

 

-snip-

 

LOL!  Okay, that is broken.  Oh man, that's kinda hilarious.  And sad.  And lazy, boring, and totally broken.  They're not playing a game, they're wasting their time...and potentially breaking the economy and stuff.  If a person is able exploit an aspect of the system that puts them ahead of others in terms of rewards and plat, it makes others that don't use exploits feel like the game rewards cheaters.

 

I was almost gonna ask for a synopsis of the video cuz it says 20min, and I didn't want to just sit there through the video.

 

I guess the main reason why I wasn't able to understand y'all's point on being anti-P42W was because I've never seen anyone ever break the system like that.  That's not a play-style, that's taking advantage of an aspect of the system that was overlooked by the devs.

 

If that video is a true example of the argument every anti-P42W person is trying to make, then I now truly understand what's going on, and I have to agree, the nukes of incredible damage need nerfing of some sort, be it cool downs, LoS, overcharge, etc.

 

I have honestly never used nukes in the game to that extent, which made me think that nukes and gun-play were fairly balanced.  I am totally convinced, now, that there does need to be a change.  Something that keeps people from being able to exploit overlooked aspects of the game.

 

Draco starts at 35-37.  After a couple of rounds, you're in T4 territory.  Tell me how that is a mid-tier mission.

 

Ceres isn't mid-tier :-P  Mid-tier is between levels 10ish-20ish.  What did you think I meant by mid-tier?

 

Btw...how do you pronounce your screen name?  I mean...I don't mean to come across as picking on you, but in my mind, I keep reading "tomatoes"....

 

---------------

 

 

-awesome story time with Mecha-

 

Thanks, tons, man.  That helps put things in better perspective.

 

----------------

 

What I read in today's Devstream overview (https://warframe.com/news/devstream-44-overview): "Respecting the time and investment every player has put into their Warframes and Loadouts is important to us. Rest assured, when the time comes to make adjustments to damage output it will be more than just a small tweak. Enemy damage, health, armor, and even damage types may be questioned."

 

So, with the removal of Serration (and probably other mods like Hornet Strike and Point Blank), and the potential reworking of enemy attributes, I'm thinking it'd be safe to assume there will also be a massive rework of the damage nuke abilities will deal.  Hopefully such a rework will also inhibit the exploitation of overlooked aspects of the game.

[MechaKnight]

Simply said, the extremely bad gain rates of the old syndicate system before reworks was enough to rift this game a new Uranus. It was bad enough to make people run nuke spam squads for 12 hours a day non-stop. The exploiting wasn't really a problem back then because everyone played the way they wanted and such behavior was extremely limited in scope. After Syndicates and the Vivergate incident, the meta seriously changed to the point where such broken gameplay is mainstream.

 

So no, I don't want to just arbitrarily harm any ability. However that video right there is only a brief window into what was 12 hour long farming a day, every day... for over a month. Practically mandatory.

 

We more creative types will always find solutions to the problem, but the system shouldn't have been that demanding in the first place.

[AlphaHorseman]

Simply said, the extremely bad gain rates of the old syndicate system before reworks was enough to rift this game a new Uranus. It was bad enough to make people run nuke spam squads for 12 hours a day non-stop. The exploiting wasn't really a problem back then because everyone played the way they wanted and such behavior was extremely limited in scope. After Syndicates and the Vivergate incident, the meta seriously changed to the point where such broken gameplay is mainstream.

 

So no, I don't want to just arbitrarily harm any ability. However that video right there is only a brief window into what was 12 hour long farming a day, every day... for over a month. Practically mandatory.

 

We more creative types will always find solutions to the problem, but the system shouldn't have been that demanding in the first place.

I agree.

[Thaumatos]

So, with the removal of Serration (and probably other mods like Hornet Strike and Point Blank), and the potential reworking of enemy attributes, I'm thinking it'd be safe to assume there will also be a massive rework of the damage nuke abilities will deal.  Hopefully such a rework will also inhibit the exploitation of overlooked aspects of the game.

Whatever they decide to do with straight-up damage mods (like Serration), it will definitely incorporate a healthy look at how damage scales and how enemies scale so as not to have changes break the current system.  I'm all for a removal of Serration and stacking base damage increases on rank, but they haven't set anything in stone just yet.

 

 

As for the rest of our little back and forth, most of us are just miffed at the fact that it has gotten so out of hand.  I think the biggest culprit is the augments that allow skills to do extra damage.  I didn't beef my xcal's damage at all and I was in a Draco PUG with some Oberon who used the Smite Infusion augment.  Man I could wail on their junk like no tomorrow.  We got up to round 4 and stopped at the key but we could have kept going.  There was no signs of a slowdown.

 

I think its safe to say that DE should balance the damage output around what they consider to be balanced content.  If they want decked-out frames to be able to nuke rooms until level 40, they're going to have to consider balancing content beyond that point.  The simple fact that your can press a button and clear everything demands that players seek a greater challenge for greater rewards.  And they do.  But they seek it in what isn't considered balanced content.

[geninrising]

As for the rest of our little back and forth, most of us are just miffed at the fact that it has gotten so out of hand.  I think the biggest culprit is the augments that allow skills to do extra damage.  I didn't beef my xcal's damage at all and I was in a Draco PUG with some Oberon who used the Smite Infusion augment.  Man I could wail on their junk like no tomorrow.  We got up to round 4 and stopped at the key but we could have kept going.  There was no signs of a slowdown.

 

Actually lets be clear on that. Those damage augments affect WEAPON output not abilities. The only ability that gets a bonus is Mesas Peacemaker because she equips a weapon to deal her ult damage.

 

The fact that those augments give bonus damage to another person and do not buff the caster is what makes complaints arise from those things.

Them buffing weapons is not an issue at all because of the fact that they are only truly useful in high tier content and you usually have to sacrifice something critical to your build to utilize them, otherwise our weapons kill everything anyway just fine.

[Thaumatos]

Actually lets be clear on that. Those damage augments affect WEAPON output not abilities. The only ability that gets a bonus is Mesas Peacemaker because she equips a weapon to deal her ult damage.

 

The fact that those augments give bonus damage to another person and do not buff the caster is what makes complaints arise from those things.

Them buffing weapons is not an issue at all because of the fact that they are only truly useful in high tier content and you usually have to sacrifice something critical to your build to utilize them, otherwise our weapons kill everything anyway just fine.

I can tell you for a fact that you're wrong.  I was in a game with Oberon using Smite Infusion and my RJ was doing radiation damage and radiation procs.

 

If you want to call it a bug, so be it, but it definitely buffs ability damage.

 

Edit:

 

It even states on the wiki that some abilities are buffed while others are not.  I don't have a full list but RJ definitely gets buffed.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thaumatos

[MechaKnight]

It even states on the wiki that some abilities are buffed while others are not.  I don't have a full list but RJ definitely gets buffed.

 

It's probably due to the nature of RJ possibly counting as a weapon...? I think Peacemaker is buffed too.

 

 

Whatever they decide to do with straight-up damage mods (like Serration), it will definitely incorporate a healthy look at how damage scales and how enemies scale so as not to have changes break the current system.  I'm all for a removal of Serration and stacking base damage increases on rank, but they haven't set anything in stone just yet.

 

 

As for the rest of our little back and forth, most of us are just miffed at the fact that it has gotten so out of hand.  I think the biggest culprit is the augments that allow skills to do extra damage.  I didn't beef my xcal's damage at all and I was in a Draco PUG with some Oberon who used the Smite Infusion augment.  Man I could wail on their junk like no tomorrow.  We got up to round 4 and stopped at the key but we could have kept going.  There was no signs of a slowdown.

 

I think its safe to say that DE should balance the damage output around what they consider to be balanced content.  If they want decked-out frames to be able to nuke rooms until level 40, they're going to have to consider balancing content beyond that point.  The simple fact that your can press a button and clear everything demands that players seek a greater challenge for greater rewards.  And they do.  But they seek it in what isn't considered balanced content.

 

The team synergy augments are neither a problem nor are they necessary--this kind of killing spree was possible before syndicate mods. I can stack three power strength mods alongside Corrosive Projection to gain the desired effect. What's really the problem is the amount of damage enemies can take before they die versus the amount we can dish out, as well as how we dish out damage.

 

We can gain a level of power on our weapons and abilities most things in the solar system are not able to handle. Let's look at a few quickly thrown together builds to understand the problem.

 

Experiment Section

 

The Weapon Conundrum

Balance between new players, old players, and the effect of base damage + multishot

I will only be comparing burst DPS

 

Mk-1 Braton with no mods: http://goo.gl/TVJdVx ; 140.40

Mk-1 Braton with ideal mods: http://goo.gl/ay8UlQ ; 8442.60

Mk-1 Braton missing base damage and multishot mods: http://goo.gl/1S1y4N ; 1033.44

Boltor Prime with no mods: http://goo.gl/pqtu05 ; 577.60

Boltor Prime with ideal mods: http://goo.gl/aQlOYw ; 34725.60

Boltor Prime missing base damage and multishot mods: http://goo.gl/kIRuK4 ; 4250.56

 

I only used the Boltor Prime as an example of a decent "end game" weapon that mods similarly to the Mk-1 Braton. It is by no means the best or worst example, simply the easiest to translate. I made three builds for each: no mods, ideal mods, and the same "ideal" set, with the core cookie cutter mods removed.

 

The result: the full kit of mods we can apply to a generic non-crit damage gun will multiply damage output by 60x. However, if the base damage and multishot mods were removed as developers were intending--being cookie-cutter mods with no variety--the damage multiple would only be increased 7x. Clearly, our mods are an amazing factor in the damage dealt between players using the same weapon. As for "bad gun" compared to "good gun", the Boltor Prime is 4x better in dealing burst DPS than the Mk-1 Braton. Overall, when comparing a min-maxed Boltor Prime to a new Mk-1 Braton, experienced players tend to deal around 247x as much damage as a fresh beginner.

 

Despite being a shooter game, Warframe balances like an MMO. The trouble with Warframe is, while MMOs tend to separate players heavily across different world regions and only entice them back to farm craft materials they could buy from other players on the market, Warframe throws all kinds of players together into alerts and missions. The solar system has some sort of separation, but it can easily be defeated by taxi'ing players past it all. Alerts also host a wide range of players, and are also susceptible to the taxi. This means Warframe has to struggle to accommodate so many ranges of player strength per mission. In general, it just means letting highly powered veterans stomp content without any difficulty+reward scaling.

 

Radial Conundrum

For our nuke ability, I will propose Excalibur's Radial Javelin. One calculation with Overextended, and one without. Both are assumed to use Stretch.  I will apply Intensify, Transient Fortitude, and Blind Rage rank 2 into the calculation. Unless specified, assume all mods are maxed.

The below are simply damage calculations. I will also use the radial circular area expression area = pi*r^2 to give an idea of the relative theoretical killing capacity of each configuration. This area will be multiplied by damage.

 

With Overextended: 1520 damage in 58.75 meters ; 16.48 million damage capacity

Without: 2120 damage in 36.25 meters ; 8.75 million damage capacity

 

It's a no-brainer that despite the damage disadvantage given by Overextended, it's practically an auto-include into nuke builds because it increases damage potential by nearly double. This is simply because range is an exponentially important component to a nuke. The damage is secondary. There's currently no penalty for spamming radials through walls with infinite punchthrough.

 

 

Enemy Durability

For our test subject, I will propose a Grineer Bombard unit. It will start at level 40.

 

I will calculate its stats using this figure: http://imgur.com/gt3Tjc0

 

Health: 5832

Armor: 1322.72

 

Using the equation here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Effective health = nominal health * ( 1 + net armor / 300 )

 

Effective Health: 31545.68

 

The below comparisons are not factoring Damage 2.0 modifiers.

 

At maximum effective health, the heavy unit would not even last against one whole second of damage from an optimized Boltor Prime. This "high level" enemy is fodder to us veterans.

 

The same Bombard would last less than 4 seconds against a maximized Mk-1 Braton. It goes in line that the Boltor Prime is 4 times as good as the Mk-1 Braton. The enemy is still barely noticeable though, and this is a heavy unit of a level you'd find on planet Ceres.

 

Against an unmodded Boltor Prime, said enemy would last 64.6 seconds. Far too long. However, just removing the base damage and multishot from the ideal build, the enemy would last against gunfire for 7.4 seconds. Maybe the developers have a point about Serration and Split Chamber. This is long enough to experience the enemy. Maybe even long enough to see it do something. The Mk-1 Braton would probably take 4 times longer to be around 30 seconds of shooting. Pretty long time. In general, new player weapons are perhaps too weak compared to the usual weapons. I mean, the Lato is terrible. Perhaps alongside the mod and damage tweaks, bad weapons can be brought within a closer margin of good weapons. So I don't need to feel like I've betrayed someone every time I try to invite a friend to this game.

 

Now for abilities. Let's assume Overextended is being used on the Radial Javelin build I mentioned.

Since the enemy at level 40 has an EHP of 31.5k, it would take quite a few Radial Javelins to down it. Twenty one of them. That doesn't seem like the "Press 4 to win" I was talking about. However, what about Corrosive Projection. Four of them. Well, now the enemy has no armor. The Bombard's EHP is only it's calculated HP on its level now. That's just less than 6k HP. This only requires 4 Overextended Radial Javelins to kill. This is the strongest enemy that will spawn on non-scaling missions on the highest planet node.

 

What does this mean though? Considering we generally run maximum efficiency to carry around 6 canned nukes without the need to refill on Warframes not using Flow as well, we can easily clear a room with no trouble regardless of how many enemies are in it on the highest non-infinitely scaling node in the solar system. If we kill anything at all (which we will), and pick up any energy orbs we see (which we will--or not with energy packs and syndicate buffs), we can clear maps forever. In any non-scaling mission, even on the "hardest" difficulty.

 

At least, that's how it is for grineer, the durable enemy in the solar system. We used to farm Corpus on Viver before those pesky nullifiers came along. They didn't have armor. Just apply the no-armor logic in our grineer experience and it's easy to see how trivial the corpus were.

 

 

 

With the above summed up, we understand the game is not challenging for veterans even on the highest level nodes in the solar system and void, provided infinite scaling is not in action. We also know how much the "cookie cutter" core mods of the weapon contribute to our imbalance between new and old players and make balance difficult. Radial damage nukes really do win everywhere except infinite content. Grineer are indeed insanely Ruk'ing durable compared to everything else, but we can still trivialize them. What are possible solutions?

 

Well, change is possible, so many solutions can be considered. Devstream #44 looked promising, as did the overview.

 

Well, assuming the speculated damage, enemy, status, and weapon rebalances take everything into account with precision we can only dream about until we see it, player weapons and mods should first be balanced to have less of a gap between their ability, with more viability in choice between everything; weapons, mods, elements, anything you can remember. Next, use this standardized expectation of applied power to balance the durability of enemies across the solar system. Current Grineer armor scaling needs to be scrapped, it's pure madness. Once these elements are targeted, gameplay can start taking a form where we actually do feel more challenge across the solar system's many planets. Also, rewards need to be scaled upwards for challenge. There is seriously no incentive for going to higher level planets--we're practically making easy mode the best option unless the dropped void keys differ between nodes.

 

What about abilities? This is an abilities thread, and one of the game's largest facets are abilities. Our concern is mostly behind radial (spherical) damage abilities, especially "ultimates", usually ability #4. There are many ways to solve that situation. Considering how similar most instant-damage radial abilities are in comparison to each other, they could be made more unique by trading a portion of damage for unique custom statuses and effects (offensive/defensive/supportive). As powerful as Nova is, her participation in the game is no longer as game-breakingly destructive as it once was. Alternatively, abilities can keep their original stats, and be balanced more closely to the game by tweaking the values of abilities mods which work with said abilities. Yet another choice is to just balance ability stats along with the rest of the heap, while making a choice as to whether they are powerful yet limited, or more average within the kit and just as unlimited as before. Even better, bump all #4 abilities to #5 abilities, and implement something balanced for the new #4. Make now ability #5 run off something that is not energy. A completely different limitation that is more suitable to an epic room-clearing mega ability.

Edited January 14, 2015 by MechaKnight

[geninrising]

Even better, bump all #4 abilities to #5 abilities, and implement something balanced for the new #4. Make now ability #5 run off something that is not energy. A completely different limitation that is more suitable to an epic room-clearing mega ability.

All good points Mecha but I especially enjoy the idea of this. That feeling of Epic power is what ults USED to be and now they are the equivalent of a gun you would never allow into the weapon pool due to it utterly annihilating all chance of balance by it's very existence.

[AlphaHorseman]

All good points Mecha but I especially enjoy the idea of this. That feeling of Epic power is what ults USED to be and now they are the equivalent of a gun you would never allow into the weapon pool due to it utterly annihilating all chance of balance by it's very existence.

Already whacked that argument, don't try and start it up again.

 

We just got through all that hell in this Thread, don't start me up again, or else it'll be another 11 pages and I'm not letting up. Mecha and I are cool, we agreed that both sides need to help themselves along, rather than one taking shots at the other. Powers and guns, both are good overall, but many aspects can be buffed and improved. Not just to our tools, but the enemies we use these tools upon and the different aspects of the game.

Edited January 15, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[geninrising]

Already whacked that argument, don't try and start it up again.

 

We just got through all that hell in this Thread, don't start me up again, or else it'll be another 11 pages and I'm not letting up. Mecha and I are cool, we agreed that both sides need to help themselves along, rather than one taking shots at the other. Powers and guns, both are good overall, but many aspects can be buffed and improved. Not just to our tools, but the enemies we use these tools upon and the different aspects of the game.

To be perfectly honest you never whacked anything. You provided your opinion on a matter that is not consistent with what the developers have stated in the only communique they have generated on the matter and your opinion does not correlate with the creation of an energy gating mechanic to begin with.

 

Regardless of bad design implementation the developers have made, they stand behind the statement thus far that it is an exploit(since they have not redacted that statement or provided any other statement to the contrary).

 

The only thing you have to support your argument is the release of created work(prime mods).

Indeed you have been unable to come up with anything that can provide incontrovertible proof of DE's stance, only supposition regarding the basis of their actions. Whereas my stance that this is an exploit has been confirmed by DE's head developer.

 

Let us now add to that the nerf applied today to energy regeneration of the entropy and Blight effect from syndicate weapons and augments. This is another effort on the part of DE to deter spam.

 

I feel that quite honestly your stance on this sincerely has nothing to do with player retention or overall player satisfaction and is only related to gains provided by the current imbalance of power spam as it relates to said rewards you wish to acquire.

 

While I and others like myself actually speak of balance(which by it's definition will remove a bit of choice, thus hurting your decision to build in a way that is declared an exploit) you only speak of personal choice and freedom to build in a way that negates the energy gating mechanic allowing you to further exploit said system.

 

You are welcome to type anything you think, however it does not change the consensus that among a large group of the player base and among the developers themselves that this is an exploit of the energy gating mechanic.

 

No matter what you may think the energy mechanic is broken and needs a fix. If that prevents players from exploiting the system GOOD.

Edited January 15, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

You are welcome to type anything you think, however it does not change the consensus that among a large group of the player base and among the developers themselves that this is an exploit of the energy gating mechanic.

 

No matter what you may think the energy mechanic is broken and needs a fix. If that prevents players from exploiting the system GOOD.

Where is your proof that "a large group of the player base" has the "consensus"? Please, feel free to show me the numbers.

 

DE, sure, they said so. Then they went out and Released Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, and have Primed Streamline lined up for release.

 

No one is exploiting anything (don't use a quote from Steve because we just debunked it with their actions and the whole actions speak louder than words blah blah blah). Look, I'd rather not paste what was in the other thread here just to get you to stop using that quote, so please, don't try it.

 

To be on a better point, I think they're already releasing content that combats such power usage. We've gotten Eximi that hinder not only the effects of some powers but also drains us of energy, Infested Healers reduce AoE damage by a large percentage I believe, and Infested Disruptors give the aura to allow their allies to drain energy from us (or is the AoE damage reduction?). And now we have the Nullifiers, sure they're being tweaked, but they offer the Corpus a way to stand their ground against our powers. Why these things block bullets? I wouldn't understand. If they "nullify" our powers, I don't get how they can stop bullets as our bullets aren't powers.

 

I think that's how they're doing it, releasing content that can't just be "press one button and win". You have to actually deal with the threats differently. I'm hoping they continue this route and add content and increase mechanics within our foes to make using our tools far more interesting than "point and shoot to kill" or "press to win."

 

I had an idea, idk if I posted it in this thread, about the Corpus getting a deploy able stationary shield that can protect a squad from Tenno powers. Thus, we'd have to either shoot the shield down and eliminate the Corpus behind it, or run around/vault over the shield to kill them with guns or abilities. All the while that the shield is up, outgoing Corpus projectiles get a damage boost. Thus, we get interesting mechanics of foes that aren't overcome by just pressing one button, or just aiming and shooting. We all win.

[geninrising]

Where is your proof that "a large group of the player base" has the "consensus"? Please, feel free to show me the numbers.

 

DE, sure, they said so. Then they went out and Released Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, and have Primed Streamline lined up for release.

 

No one is exploiting anything (don't use a quote from Steve because we just debunked it with their actions and the whole actions speak louder than words blah blah blah). Look, I'd rather not paste what was in the other thread here just to get you to stop using that quote, so please, don't try it.

 

To be on a better point, I think they're already releasing content that combats such power usage. We've gotten Eximi that hinder not only the effects of some powers but also drains us of energy, Infested Healers reduce AoE damage by a large percentage I believe, and Infested Disruptors give the aura to allow their allies to drain energy from us (or is the AoE damage reduction?). And now we have the Nullifiers, sure they're being tweaked, but they offer the Corpus a way to stand their ground against our powers. Why these things block bullets? I wouldn't understand. If they "nullify" our powers, I don't get how they can stop bullets as our bullets aren't powers.

 

I think that's how they're doing it, releasing content that can't just be "press one button and win". You have to actually deal with the threats differently. I'm hoping they continue this route and add content and increase mechanics within our foes to make using our tools far more interesting than "point and shoot to kill" or "press to win."

 

I had an idea, idk if I posted it in this thread, about the Corpus getting a deploy able stationary shield that can protect a squad from Tenno powers. Thus, we'd have to either shoot the shield down and eliminate the Corpus behind it, or run around/vault over the shield to kill them with guns or abilities. All the while that the shield is up, outgoing Corpus projectiles get a damage boost. Thus, we get interesting mechanics of foes that aren't overcome by just pressing one button, or just aiming and shooting. We all win.

Yes you did post that idea. As for the subject of combating it with new in game elements versus implementing a cooldown or nerfing of energy efficiency, that is actually a positive idea in some respects as it still allows freedom of playstyle but also requires a good bit of skill be thrown into the mix in order to maintain use of said abilities. However my concern is how all these changes utterly destroy a newer players ability to use said skills at all due to various drains and lack of requisite mods to combat the drains.

 

We currently have energy siphon and 75% efficiency that helps us to continue doing what we do in the face of these drainers of various kinds, however newer players have no such luck and are hit below the belt with these implementations thus creating a larger gap in our playability of the game.

 

As I stated before in another post I recently started an account to see what it was like for a new player and honestly even with someone to carry me it was not fun at all facing eximus units or nullifiers and especially not parasitic(those are the aoe energy drainers of infested, Disrupters cast an aura that reduces radial and power damage received by nearby allies. Its attack will reduce shields and drain all energy, while Attacks of linked nearby allies will deal extra damage to shielding and drain a little of your energy with each strike). 

 

Add to that tar moas and Disrupters along with Ancient Healers reducing damage to all their allies(which can all spawn as parasitic type) makes infested currently nearly unplayable at all for newer players. The only reason I am able to do it at all is full situational awareness and target prioritizing as well as mastery of the movement systems in place which allows me the ability to simply out manoeuvre them.

 

All of these things implemented to counter our Farming methods are insanely detrimental to a newer player and make the game nearly unplayable unless someone carries you on their back.

 

If they could somehow balance these things on a per player basis it might be completely beneficial or perhaps do not include said enemies if players have less than X amount of energy efficiency, but that would be weighting enemies against certain players and I am against weighting anything in anyone's favor.

 

I know that sounds ironic considering I advocate removing the ability to spam to the extent it is currently utilized but the ability to spam is the impetus for these other methods the DEvs are producing to combat our abilities. This in turn is CRIPPLING our new players.

Edited January 15, 2015 by geninrising

[Thaumatos]

Where is your proof that "a large group of the player base" has the "consensus"? Please, feel free to show me the numbers.

That doesn't matter.  Everyone always thinks they're in the majority.

 

Point is, DE knows "x-ray" abilities are too strong.  They also know that their content needs to be changed to add more of a variation between 'easy' and 'impossible'.  They'll be looking at that in 2015.

 

I'm just glad that regardless of people wanting their easymode, they know their game deserves more depth than '44444444444'.

[AlphaHorseman]

Yes you did post that idea. As for the subject of combating it with new in game elements versus implementing a cooldown or nerfing of energy efficiency, that is actually a positive idea in some respects as it still allows freedom of playstyle but also requires a good bit of skill be thrown into the mix in order to maintain use of said abilities. However my concern is how all these changes utterly destroy a newer players ability to use said skills at all due to various drains and lack of requisite mods to combat the drains.

 

We currently have energy siphon and 75% efficiency that helps us to continue doing what we do in the face of these drainers of various kinds, however newer players have no such luck and are hit below the belt with these implementations thus creating a larger gap in our playability of the game.

 

As I stated before in another post I recently started an account to see what it was like for a new player and honestly even with someone to carry me it was not fun at all facing eximus units or nullifiers and especially not parasitic(those are the aoe energy drainers of infested, Disrupters cast an aura that reduces radial and power damage received by nearby allies. Its attack will reduce shields and drain all energy, while Attacks of linked nearby allies will deal extra damage to shielding and drain a little of your energy with each strike). 

 

Add to that tar moas and Disrupters along with Ancient Healers reducing damage to all their allies(which can all spawn as parasitic type) makes infested currently nearly unplayable at all for newer players. The only reason I am able to do it at all is full situational awareness and target prioritizing as well as mastery of the movement systems in place which allows me the ability to simply out manoeuvre them.

 

All of these things implemented to counter our Farming methods are insanely detrimental to a newer player and make the game nearly unplayable unless someone carries you on their back.

 

If they could somehow balance these things on a per player basis it might be completely beneficial or perhaps do not include said enemies if players have less than X amount of energy efficiency, but that would be weighting enemies against certain players and I am against weighting anything in anyone's favor.

 

I know that sounds ironic considering I advocate removing the ability to spam to the extent it is currently utilized but the ability to spam is the impetus for these other methods the DEvs are producing to combat our abilities. This in turn is CRIPPLING our new players.

I thought the Infested only pop up in alerts if it isn't Eris?

 

That doesn't matter.  Everyone always thinks they're in the majority.

 

Point is, DE knows "x-ray" abilities are too strong.  They also know that their content needs to be changed to add more of a variation between 'easy' and 'impossible'.  They'll be looking at that in 2015.

 

I'm just glad that regardless of people wanting their easymode, they know their game deserves more depth than '44444444444'.

I think they're already working on it. With Eximi, Healers/Disrupters, Nullifiers, they're releasing content that isn't just press a button and it dies. You have to prioritize targets and eliminate the bigger threats. I hope they continue on a path like that, where it isn't directly hurting the players by nerfing their tools, but giving the enemy tools that helps to mitigate the effects on powers to them if that unit is on the field. I made a shield proposal thing in multiple threads, idk if you've read it, don't know how many times I've posted it. But something like that could work even when Eximi and Nullifiers aren't on the field.

[Thaumatos]

I think they're already working on it. With Eximi, Healers/Disrupters, Nullifiers, they're releasing content that isn't just press a button and it dies. You have to prioritize targets and eliminate the bigger threats. I hope they continue on a path like that, where it isn't directly hurting the players by nerfing their tools, but giving the enemy tools that helps to mitigate the effects on powers to them if that unit is on the field. I made a shield proposal thing in multiple threads, idk if you've read it, don't know how many times I've posted it. But something like that could work even when Eximi and Nullifiers aren't on the field.

The Eximus targets are a neat trick, but I'd like to see the "heavy" targets get heavier.  I think they need to be more powerful than they are right now.  They were the original idea for a stronger unit but they've become a different looking piece of fodder.

 

Nullifiers are a good start too.  I like how they have a removable field that's large enough to encompass their allies.

 

The biggest problem with making things that last long, and this goes beyond push-button nukes, is that the Tenno themselves don't last very long outside of gimmick-style play.  This is why you see people crying about Hysteria being removed while in a Nullifier's field.  They have no other way to sustain heavy fire besides a skill that either stops enemies from attacking or makes you invisible/invulnerable to them.

[AlphaHorseman]

The Eximus targets are a neat trick, but I'd like to see the "heavy" targets get heavier.  I think they need to be more powerful than they are right now.  They were the original idea for a stronger unit but they've become a different looking piece of fodder.

 

Nullifiers are a good start too.  I like how they have a removable field that's large enough to encompass their allies.

 

The biggest problem with making things that last long, and this goes beyond push-button nukes, is that the Tenno themselves don't last very long outside of gimmick-style play.  This is why you see people crying about Hysteria being removed while in a Nullifier's field.  They have no other way to sustain heavy fire besides a skill that either stops enemies from attacking or makes you invisible/invulnerable to them.

I hope you don't mean just buffing up their armor, Health/HP. Because that's pretty much how the enemies in Endless are.

Edited January 15, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Thaumatos]

I hope you don't mean just buffing up their armor, Health/HP. Because that's pretty much how the enemies in Endless are.

Well the problem with that is they don't become any more dynamic than a bullet sponge.

 

I think they could have made heavies each have their own specific ways to be killed that are more effective than just spamming damage in their general direction.  Maybe like a cc/melee combo or a headshot/takedown execution....something.

[AlphaHorseman]

Well the problem with that is they don't become any more dynamic than a bullet sponge.

 

I think they could have made heavies each have their own specific ways to be killed that are more effective than just spamming damage in their general direction.  Maybe like a cc/melee combo or a headshot/takedown execution....something.

Like adding weak spots? Kinda like how Banshee highlights? But instead of highlighting have them be prominent when you make those spots vulnerable?

[Thaumatos]

Like adding weak spots? Kinda like how Banshee highlights? But instead of highlighting have them be prominent when you make those spots vulnerable?

Well that'd be neat too.

 

I meant more like...this is the way you take down a Heavy Gunner:  Block, Block, Block, Close the Distance, Kick, Stab, Shoot.

 

That might be a little complex for Warframe but...just to better illustrate my point.