Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[Emotitron]

@GoneM4d and @Emotitron

*most* of the people in this thread dont want them to be removed.  They want the mechanics that use/abuse fixed.  Vastly different.  Please try to read some of the posts.

 

Sorry if I am not going to read 19 pages of text on a topic that shouldn't even exist. I have faced the roller balls like everyone else and they are fine IMO. If a player lets enough get on them to stunlock them, then they have already let the situation get out of control and the grineer did their job. That works for me, since I can't think of the last time I have failed a mission.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Emotitron

[Dolomaticus]

I just use my Dash attacks for my Rinho and Excalibur and line them up. A lot of times  I watched people get shredded by them and they forget to use their powers to just kill them. Heck Radial blind actually stops them in their tracks((Funny you can 'Blind" a rollling ball)). Look every game has THAT enemy, one who just annoys you....not really kill you, but drives you crazy till you finallly get tired of it and just beat it down. Once you actually learn how to beat it, you kinda wonder how it ever really annoyed you in the first place.

 

Look if the rollers actually was killing Tenno left and right and was the enemy to be dreaded when seen, I would be behind this, but they are not, not even close to being that. I downvote this idea cause "annoyance" is not really something to be bringing up as a serious concern. There are more pressing problems that need to be taken care of. As of right now this is not a serious problem...heck it's barely a concern.

[Tsukinoki]

@Emotitron
It only takes 1 to permanantly stunlock you against a wall/box.

It only takes 3 or 4 to stunlock you in the open.

A sensible thing to do is to change the stun mechanic to have diminishing returns so that its not possible to do an infinite stunlock on an enemy or have it done to the player.

As it is the stun mechanic is broken.  If they fixed it threads like this would disappear.

[GoneM4d]

@Emotitron

It only takes 1 to permanantly stunlock you against a wall/box.

It only takes 3 or 4 to stunlock you in the open.

A sensible thing to do is to change the stun mechanic to have diminishing returns so that its not possible to do an infinite stunlock on an enemy or have it done to the player.

As it is the stun mechanic is broken.  If they fixed it threads like this would disappear.

You cannot get stunned from just 1, even if you are up against the wall. Rollers get stuck on the wall waaay to often.

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
Have you ever been against a wall with a roller rolling against your feet non-stop?  That causes an endless stun cycle with zero way out until either you die or your allies get there.

That kinda shows how broken stunlocks can be.

And while players can abuse the mechanic against bosses/ancients that doesn't redeem it into a good mechanic.  Its still broken and needs to be fixed.  If a mechanic allows people to trivialize high level content by hitting E over and over for endless boss stun then there is a problem with the mechanic.

Also again, your statement just shows the even people who dont want them fixed thinks that the best way to deal with them is to have the terrain break their AI....doesn't help your argument.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[BobDillinger]

You cannot get stunned from just 1, even if you are up against the wall. Rollers get stuck on the wall waaay to often.

Yes you can, it's happened to me, admittedly it was only one time, but it can happen and that is a problem.

[GoneM4d]

@GoneM4d

Have you ever been against a wall with a roller rolling against your feet non-stop?  That causes an endless stun cycle with zero way out until either you die or your allies get there.

That kinda shows how broken stunlocks can be.

And while players can abuse the mechanic against bosses/ancients that doesn't redeem it into a good mechanic.  Its still broken and needs to be fixed.  If a mechanic allows people to trivialize high level content by hitting E over and over for endless boss stun then there is a problem with the mechanic.

Also again, your statement just shows the even people who dont want them fixed thinks that the best way to deal with them is to have the terrain break their AI....doesn't help your argument.

Dude I have 110+ hours invested in to this game, my friend has about 50, my other friend has 105 maybe 110 hours now invested. None of them had ever had any serious issues with the rollers. We might off gotten killed once or twice but we knew that we were wrong. I feel like you are speaking from 1-3 incidence that made you frustrated and here you are using those 1-3 times to back up your argument. It just doesn't work like that.

[RealityMachina]

I personally like the roller balls, they are annoying and unique compared to other mobs

>>>using annoying as a positive trait to describe an enemy

Edited May 13, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Emotitron]

>>>using annoying as a positive trait to describe an enemy

 

 

Yup. Annoying has a role. The thief bot in Descent 2 might go down as the most annoying enemy ever added to a game, and it was awesome. And btw now you are just trolling. You don't like the roller balls, we get it.

[Aerensiniac]

>>>using annoying as a positive trait to describe an enemy

 

>>Implying enemies are not supposed to present an obstacle to the player

 

Also, 72 upvotes on an enemy that requires you only to use a skill.

A whole thread dedicated to spoiled teen players and first world problems.

I like where this is going.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Tsukinoki]

@Emotitron
There are ways for the roller to fulfill its role without being annoying.

Do you know where the annoying enemies came from originally?

They were put into games to annoy you and kill you to force you to put more coins into the arcade to finally beat them.  Skip ahead to personal consoles and games were still including that type of enemy.  Why?  Its because they thought it worked best for the arcade it'll work best for the console and PC.

Thankfully games have been moving away from having enemies who solely exist to be annoying.  This game doesn't need enemies to exist solely to be annoying.

And honestly in Descent 2 the thief bot wasn't that annoying.  Descent 2 was a pretty fun game IMO.

@Aerensiniac
There are ways that enemies can provide obstacles without being annoying.  Please try not to strawman too hard in this thread like you do in others.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Aerensiniac]

@Emotitron

There are ways for the roller to fulfill its role without being annoying.

Could you show an example to this in warframe?

Im curious cause there is like hardly any enemy that poses an actual threat to the players.

Ancients? Maybe, then again, i have seen enough threads about them too, how they should not stun and do this and do that... at this point i really just wonder what the **** the children are expecting from this game, claiming that enemies can be done better, but forgetting that there are no enemies in the game that pose a challenge in any form or way.

[Tsukinoki]

@Aerensiniac
There currently aren't any enemies that pose a solid challenge.  Rollers are an annoyance and are just frustrating.  Not really "hard" but they abuse a mechanic and are not fun to fight.  The mechanic can also be abused by players to remove the challenge on bosses and ancients, part of the reason that the stun mechanic needs to be fixed.

in order to make enemies fun and challenging would entail, in part, a better AI and more diversity in unit types and abilities.  For examples with rollers, if they fix the stun mechanics and make the rollers have to have their blades out to attack, they could make the rollers able to move along walls to increase its movement options.  They could follow players to places normal enemies cant.  They could even drop down on-top of players with little warning.  They could climb over cover.  The reasoning behind giving them this ability?  Their blades can dig into walls and other materials and their momentum keeps them going.

That would make the enemy a lot more dynamic, a lot more interesting to fight, and with a fixed stun mechanic they would be no where near as frustrating as they are now.  It would also make it harder to break the roller on terrain meaning it would actually be a bit more difficult to lose.  Plus a lot of people said that they are supposed to flush people out of cover, if they can roll right over cover it actually strengthens their roll on the battle field.

What DE needs to do is fix the broken stun mechanic, make enemies less frustrating to fight, and then they can focus on making enemies more dynamic, challenging, and fun to fight.  Those last three points can be accomplished without making them frustrating.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Aerensiniac]

There currently aren't any enemies that pose a solid challenge[...]

[...]yet we are creating threads about wanting every form off annoyances removed.

 

So whats your point again? Its more important to first strip the entire game of enemies that pose any form of change to your average "1 shot 1 kill, nothing can even get through my shields" game play?

There is no straw manning mate. I understand your and the OPs point perfectly well, and i even agree with you. Yet your priorities are screwed up.

Put in enemies which make the game actually more than a repetitive useless **** farm fest and then you can get back on useless place holder annoyances like the grineer sphere.

 

Removing annoyances before actually putting in anything that could cover for them results in your A+ most underwhelming and useless game of the decade. Warframe already is a no effort farm fest.

Just saying.

Having threads that want to remove annoyances before actually doing something about the game's challenge value, does not help.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Tsukinoki]

@Aerensiniac
And fixing stuns doesn't automatically make things easier.  Unless you can prove that diminishing returns will completely negate the stuns and make them a non issue entirely.

Also, as another person said, removing stunlocking that players can do on bosses and ancients will actually make them more difficult.  From your point of view how is that a bad thing?

[RealityMachina]

yet we are creating threads about wanting every form off annoyances removed.

[...]

There is no straw manning mate.

[Hemlox]

It is not "simple" to kill rollers, they don't always roll in a straight line, they do sometimes, and that's when it's easiest, but I've seen them take several curves to get to me. 

 

It would be simple if you could jump attack them, but they can still hit you in the air. 

 

It can be "simple" to kill one roller, but we know rollers don't "roll" solo, they roll 3 or 4 deep, at least.

 

Some kind of re-work/tweak needs to be done, they at least need to be fixed so they can't hit you when you're jumping in the air above them, clearly out of reach. I would be fine with just that, so I could come down and get some aoe ground damage to take them out.

 

Also, diminishing returns.

 

Stunlock is bad.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Hemlox

[Aerensiniac]

Unless you can prove that diminishing returns will completely negate the stuns and make them a non issue entirely.

How is this not obvious?

 

Also, as another person said, removing stunlocking that players can do on bosses and ancients will actually make them more difficult.  From your point of view how is that a bad thing?

Then innate stun effects will be taken over by elemental stuns or knock downs.

Doesnt make much of a difference to be completely honest with you, albeit im all for it.

[RealityMachina]

How is this not obvious?

 

...because diminishing returns tend to imply that the effect in question diminishes as it's repeatedly used, thus implying that while initial stuns will work, repeated stuns on the same creature in X period of time will have less effectiveness and eventually not work at all until enough time passes?

[Tsukinoki]

@Aerensiniac
When I refer to the stun mechanics I mean all of them.

The first stun has full effects and the next has slightly less and it keeps on getting lower and lower, regardless of where the stun comes from, until you cant be stunned by anything for a short duration.  They could easily implement that feature on *all* stuns, meaning no more cheesing bosses with stuns, elemental or otherwise.  And it would mean that the player cant be infinitely stun locked either.

The player can still be stunned.  It doesn't negate it.  It just means that they player cant be stunned indefinitely.  A stun for a max of say 5 seconds from a roller is still a stun of 5 seconds of sitting there and being shot.  That's still dangerous and a situation you would want to avoid.

If an enemy has a longer stun/stagger time, such as a boss who has a 3 second stun period, they can stun you longer than a roller can, but eventually you'll be immune to that stun after a few times as well.  It would also keep stuns proportional to what is causing them.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Emotitron]

If they cater to this request they may as well make the ancients take less than all of your energy and shields, and make the chargers and splody head guys not stun you, and the riot shield guy not knock you down.

If you are getting stunlocked by roller balls then you let them get out of hand.  Don't let them get out of hand. If you let ANYTHING get all up on top of you in numbers you are going to have a bad day.

 

Frankly I don't actually care what they do with the rollerballs because as content they are all already below the abilities of my frames and weapons, I am only interested in what the future plans are for the game. My issue here and with posts like this is that it is asking devs to tinker with unimportant content in a beta that REALLY doesn't matter and is not really a good use of time when they have a game to build. I've seen requests to nerf the balls, nerf the disruptors, nerf the Rhino, boost a half dozen weapons and nerf a half dozen other weapons.... but why? Nothing being discussed is game breaking and all of it is going to dramatically change as the game evolves toward an actual end state.

 

Rebalancing stuff in a completely unfinished game is a terrible direction to be dragging devs. IMO.

[RealityMachina]

Rebalancing stuff in a completely unfinished game is a terrible direction to be dragging devs. IMO.

what do you think the purpose of a beta is

[Tsukinoki]

@Emotitron
So a beta isn't about balancing the content and making things work well?

But they can develop, fix bugs, and correct balance issues.  That is what beta is for.  In fact most games use the beta mostly for fixing bugs and balance issues.  This one is just also using it for expanding more, though IMO I think that that this game is one that will always read beta so taht they can have an easy excuse for things.  There are a few F2P games that never leave their beta stage after all.

[Emotitron]

Fine.

 

Nerf or remove roller balls.

Nerf Ancients.

Nerf Rhino.

Nerf Trinity.

Nerf the Gorgon.

Nerf whatever else I have forgotten seeing requested over the last couple days.

 

And when they are done with all of that let's see what is left of the game.

[Tsukinoki]

@Emotitron
And how is fixing a broken mechanic a nerf?

Players can abuse the stun mechanics on ancients and bosses by stunning them in the middle of their arena until they die.  I've been in missions where the boss just stood in the middle stunlocked and posing zero threats.  So please tell me how its a nerf?  How is it a nerf to fix a mechanic that allows players to do that to bosses and other tougher enemies?

At the same time ti would be preventing players from getting stunlocked themselves.  Again, how is that a nerf?