Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[MoonicusMaximus]

First: I find enemies tend to NOT stay still unless they're behind cover or en masse - the sole exception being Shockwave Moa charging for their stomp.  Otherwise, they're constantly shifting position, seeking a clear firelane, or running for cover.  Grineer tend to fall back and seek cover, whether it be a Shield Lancer or actual terrain.  That may be a perceptual difference; confirmation bias is an ever-present risk in a subjective situation, which this is. 

 

Although Grineer do the things as you say, they are notoriously slow at it. Hiding behind cover and popping up to attack you, exposing themselves and standing in a single place while doing so... it's just too simple to shoot them. Rollers provide the challenge of a fast-moving target which, in comparison to the standard Grineer units, is a much-needed diversification. They also provide incentive to actually shoot them, through their ability to disrupt you.

 

 

And yes, I do agree we have differing definitions of fun - I don't play games to "receive punishment until I get better".  I play them to have a good time with my friends blowing pixels into blood smears, helping each other achieve goals, and occasionally screwing up hilariously.  You, however, seem to view it as a profession - something you're being judged harshly on, with penalties for screwing up.  Work, in other words.  Given that particular worldview, perhaps you'd be happier playing something on the pro tours instead of "just for fun"; either way, it's quite clear we'll never meet eye-to-eye on the definition, so I'll agree to disagree and move on.

 

Work? Hardly. Any game can potentially be fun, but for me, fun is largely derived from challenge. If I am not challenged, I do not feel as though the time I spent doing something was worth the effort, regardless of the reward. The difference I am seeing is that you seem to prefer walking down an empty hall, and I prefer to fight my way down a hall full of enemies. If I am not challenged, things may be fun for a short time, but without challenge the novelties wear off much, much more quickly and things start to become a bore. And I would hate to become bored of Warframe so quickly, as I find the mechanics and the fundamentals enjoyable, and the controls and gunplay are crisp. There are many reasons to like the game, but if I can remain challenged as I play, it will extend my time spent playing the game, which is what any good developer should be looking to accomplish; longevity through challenge presented to the player.

 

If anything, a game without challenge becomes worse than work, it becomes a chore.

 

WRT the rollers: You say their attack is the jumping-blade phase - I say their "attack" is anytime you get stumbled and damaged by them regardless of animation.  And the oft-mentioned "only let them stumble you when they are actually jumping, blades out" would be a very good median point - because it's not the animated attack that makes them hair-tearingly frustrating.  It's the "zipped by you two inches away and sent you into a drunken lurch" that does it - fix that, and Rollers go from the reason I'm bald to what you currently view them as: a spice to the Grineer, something to change-up the scenario.

 

You stepping on them while they roll right past you to attack another Tenno is not them attacking you. It's you stepping on a rolling ball.

 

But I wouldn't be against removing the stagger effect from touch rather than actual attack. It is not touching them that staggers me, it is when they reach me after I fail to dispatch them.

 

As for the Infested: The problem with them is that stumble is ALL THEY DO.  You either bring a heavy weapon(Gram, Scindo) or Dual Ethers capped and potato'd and expect to melee-slog through it taking a ton of time while being bored to tears, or you plan on running past just about everything so you DON'T get stunlocked.  And God help you if you've got a Glaive on your arm and the Corpus or Grineer mission you picked turns into Infested - at that point, it's run or abort, because the Glaive is useless as a melee weapon, and they WILL get to melee unless you book it.  Give them some variety beyond "ten different ways to stagger like you've just had a cask of Jack".  Runners are fine.  Leapers are fine.  Knock stun off Chargers, give them something else.  And Disruptors need a serious balance check - shields OR energy, not both.  If both, then NOT all of either.  And no more "ten in a pack as you come around the corner" - limit their numbers in the same way Grineer elites are limited.

 

Your assessment of how you should deal with Infested levels (melee or run away) is very flawed. You have a plentiful amount of guns and a wide variety of mobility options to utilize your ranged and speed advantages, while infested units have no way to attack you from any distance outside of stones throw. You are meant to utilize your advantages when dealing with Infested, same as you utilize advantages against any faction. Meleeing through Infested isn't the ideal situation, but it isn't so terrible that it is impossible; you are just willingly putting yourself into Infested units' optimal range of attack, and if you do that, you should expect the possibility of them putting the hurt on you as a possible reality.

 

And Infested stunlock that actually lasts for longer than 2-3 seconds is incredibly rare. Runners are forced to suicide to attack you, removing them completely while only imparting a very short stagger animation. Leapers have an extremely long telegraphed attack animation before they leap at you, and while the leap will knock you flat, their normal attacks will only stun you if you are charging a melee weapon. Chargers only stagger you on their leaping attack, not their claw swipe unless you are, again, charging a melee weapon. Chargers will not leap attack you frequently when you are at close range, meaning that if you are surrounded by a group of Chargers, which is a bad situation, you will often be given many chances to escape the staggerlock as they perform simple swipes at close range. It is advisable to use your regained mobility to escape, rather than charge an attack only for it to be swiped and stunned for attempting something that silly. Ancients will knock you flat if you let them get to you. They are notably more dangerous than other infested units, and that is the way it is supposed to be, because they are the Infested's special units; strong but infrequent. To counterbalance their strengths, Ancients are easily identifiable amongst crowds of infested, due to their unique coloration and taller, broader profiles. They also have a small circle of actual engagement without players acting first.

 

If Infested did not have the ability to sponge your damage and prevent your movement for a short time if they actually reach you, their ability to actually present a challenge to you becomes next to nil. Their attack animations do not allow them to keep up the chase as they attack; they have to pause, for quite a while, to actually engage you, compared to how Tenno need not lose any speed or mobility at all to effectively engage them. If all Infested units did was damage you, even if that damage was severe you would still have enough agency to make their efforts of attacking you trivial and meaningless, as you can quite literally walk your way through them otherwise. And I do not think increasing their damage over staggers and stuns is a good idea; I would much rather be staggered and allowed to move and try again after the period of punishment, rather than be one-shot to death in seconds.

Edited May 5, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[MoonicusMaximus]

'Cause you know what? Even ignoring the fact that rollers are terrible no matter your skill level and the only reason to defend them is rationalization and pretending that being more able to tolerate a bad design makes you somehow a more worthy person... A game ought to be fun even if you aren't good at it. When it destroys you, it ought to be in a way that feels fair and makes you want to get better. When Batman gets his &#! beaten in an Arkham game, it's always because you screwed up; you always have all of the tools you need to overcome a situation and you just didn't apply them correctly. Every attack in Bayonetta or Devil May Cry has a signal to alert you it's coming and the warning is proportional to how much the attack will harm you, and when you get killed, it was because you didn't react fast enough, not because the game didn't warn you or wasn't set up in such a way as to let you react instantaneously.

Getting stunlocked by anything and watching yourself get shot to death while your character kind of derps there, when you mash the buttons to move but your character won't respond, is not fun. It never has been fun and it never will be fun. Stunlock is not an acceptable mechanic. Period.

 

I do not understand your line of thought here.

 

You have every opportunity to kill Rollers before they put you into their optimal ranges. You can see them easily, from their easy-to-identify silhouette, bright orange lights and brightly-colored sparks. You can hear the unmistakable, distinguishable sound effect from a fair distance. You have the movement options that allow you to remain out of their lines of attack. You have gunplay options to deal with their grotesquely low HP before they bring you into optimal range. You have frame-specific abilities that can help you in several ways. You have (or should have, as this is meant to be a co-op game and solo play is currently not balanced for solo play in regards to enemies spawns and numbers) 1 to 3 other players who, for all intents and purposes, should want to kill the Rollers as much as you do. And their staggers are not even that big of a detriment, as you are often able to regain your control immediately after being struck.

 

Stuns are also not a bad mechanic in the confines of Warframes, they are just a larger detriment because Tenno are allowed multiple mobility options, and stuns are a direct counter to said options. StunLOCK isn't fun, I agree; but players are actually, legitimately stunlocked for more than a few seconds very, very rarely. Being stunned and being stunlocked are two very different mechanics, and I do not believe actual stunlock happens enough to be a real issue, not nearly enough to actually remove units ability to stun you from the game completely.

 

You have numerous options for dealing with Rollers, always presented and available to you. The deciding factor is your own ability to use them correctly and effectively; player skill, which can always improve.

[Madotsuki]

Moonicus, can you explain exactly why you are so desperate to defend Rollers? Regardless whether they can be dealt with, which i admit they can in most situations, they are still not FUN. It is a rolling ball that staggers you on touch even if it is moving at a snail's pace and gently nudges against the big toe of your high tech space armor that can take a rocket to the face. If Rollers could only damage/stagger players when in an actual charging attack animation, then i would have a lot less problems with it, even if 3+ Rollers can still screw up your day by taking turns to charge, but you can't compromise even that.

 

Wanna know what a good enemy is like? The Fusion Moa. It never staggers or knocks you down, its attack is not unavoidable, it is not a bullet sponge, but it punishes you for being caught off guard with a really high dps laser and a decently powerful support drone. And when there are multiple ones at once, charging at you amidst an incoming ocean of Crewmen and regular Moas, they are a nightmare, and yet they are a FUN nightmare, because you can actually fight them without having your movement constantly interrupted every other second. It feels intense, it feels exciting, it feels FUN.

 

Rollers are nothing like that. You are not allowed to leave them for later, you are forced to either kill them now or be stagger-spammed. When there are multiple ones at once they constantly take away your control and break the flow of the game. It is intense to sprint and slide past a web of fusion heat lasers, blast a few crewmen in the face, jump over a shockwave and then U-turn back for a ground slam counter. It is NOT intense to watch your character stumble around like a drunk by being nudged by little bowling balls while trying to run away like a pansy so you can isolate them while being showered by lead by a wave of Lancers who are just standing there bored to tears.

 

New enemies, better overall AI, there are hundreds of ways to make the Grineer a competent and challenging faction that is exciting to play against. Why do you insist that Rollers are the only option, and that they must never ever be changed for they are more perfect than God?

[MoonicusMaximus]

Moonicus, can you explain exactly why you are so desperate to defend Rollers? Regardless whether they can be dealt with, which i admit they can in most situations, they are still not FUN. It is a rolling ball that staggers you on touch even if it is moving at a snail's pace and gently nudges against the big toe of your high tech space armor that can take a rocket to the face. If Rollers could only damage/stagger players when in an actual charging attack animation, then i would have a lot less problems with it, even if 3+ Rollers can still screw up your day by taking turns to charge, but you can't compromise even that.

 

Because I think they are fun, and fine the way they are. I love to hate them, while you just hate them. I wouldn't say I am desperate about anything, I am just stating what I see as something that is fun, and fine the way it is. I'm not against changes and fixes, but not when something isn't broken to begin with. A large amount of what I see in regards to the dislike of Rollers is a direct inability to properly deal with them, which is just player skill. If anything, I'm desperate for people to find ways to better themselves at the game, rather than having the game fundamentally change just because its difficult, despite arbitrary reasons. I don't want people who read this argument to think that Rollers are bad just because people say so. They should hear both sides and make a decision on that.

 

 

Wanna know what a good enemy is like? The Fusion Moa. It never staggers or knocks you down, its attack is not unavoidable, it is not a bullet sponge, but it punishes you for being caught off guard with a really high dps laser and a decently powerful support drone. And when there are multiple ones at once, charging at you amidst an incoming ocean of Crewmen and regular Moas, they are a nightmare, and yet they are a FUN nightmare, because you can actually fight them without having your movement constantly interrupted every other second. It feels intense, it feels exciting, it feels FUN.

 

I like Fusion Moas. Although they are not nearly as deadly as you say they are. The are a bit slower than regular moa, larger and more discernible in crowds, and has noticeably more armor and health, making it more of a bullet sponge. I enjoy the fact that if I do not attack them because they are bullet sponges, they will release turret ospreys. But when you get down to it, they are dealt with in the same manner and fashion as regular moas. They have no difference in weak points, resistances or lack thereof. There is no change in how you kill them, just what they do if you don't. It adds variety of enemy, but not of gameplay.

 

But your dislike of having "movement constantly interrupted" stems from an inability to deal with Rollers in an efficient manner. I do not mind having my movement interrupted in this manner; although I dislike it on the surface level because of what it does (exposes me), I am capable of stopping it and am given ample opportunity to do so every time. Removal of the stagger removes any punishment Rollers would impart upon you that act in a significant manner towards assisting Grineer at being a challenge to you, removing variety of gameplay. I am against this.

 

Rollers are nothing like that. You are not allowed to leave them for later, you are forced to either kill them now or be stagger-spammed. When there are multiple ones at once they constantly take away your control and break the flow of the game. It is intense to sprint and slide past a web of fusion heat lasers, blast a few crewmen in the face, jump over a shockwave and then U-turn back for a ground slam counter. It is NOT intense to watch your character stumble around like a drunk by being nudged by little bowling balls while trying to run away like a pansy so you can isolate them while being showered by lead by a wave of Lancers who are just standing there bored to tears.

 

Why are you describing gameplay against Corpus in which the player is performing well, but then go directly to describing gameplay against Grineer in which the player is performing poorly? It's unjust to do so, it shows heavy bias and is frankly very difficult for me to read and take seriously.

 

"It is intense to sprint and slide past a web of Lancer Grakata crossfire, blast a few Troopers in the face, jump over a Roller and then U-turn back for a quick kill as it spins to return back at me. It is NOT intense to watch your character stumble around like a drunk by being nudged by expanding orange circles on the floor while trying to jump away like a pansy so you can kill them while being showered by lasers by a wave of Crewmen who are just standing there bored to tears."

 

My example is just as valid as yours.

 

Killing Rollers before other Grineer enemy types is a good strategy, but it is by no means forced upon anybody. I have, on several occasions, forgone killing Rollers in a group of Grineer in favor of offing Lancers and Troopers, as the situation called. Did I get nudged? Sometimes, but most of the time I was able to keep my wits about me and keep the Roller in my field of view so that I could continue to avoid its attacks while at the same time dispatching other units. You may not believe it so, but to me and others, fighting Rollers present challenge with reward for success and punishment for failure, which directly translates to fun. Removing valid punishment for failure unbalances the challenge with no risk for reward. I am rewarded for success by not having my agency removed and a troublesome enemy type dispatched, I am punished for failure by being jostled around, but still given another chance to succeed.

 

Do you kill Shield Osprey before killing Corpus Units? Of course you do, because shield Osprey lend defensive options to Corpus that they normally do not have. You are by no means forced to; you can weather the increased shields if the Osprey is out of your line of sight and cannot be dealt with quickly, but you expend more ammunition and expose yourself longer.

 

Do you kill Rollers before killing Grineer units? Of course you do, because Rollers lend offensive options to Grineer that they normally do not have. You are by no means forced to; you can weather the harassment if the Roller is outside of you ability to kill, but you risk losing your mobility and potentially expose yourself longer.

 

New enemies, better overall AI, there are hundreds of ways to make the Grineer a competent and challenging faction that is exciting to play against. Why do you insist that Rollers are the only option, and that they must never ever be changed for they are more perfect than God?

 

I have never, not once, said that Rollers should be the only option for Grineer to be a challenge. I very often speak of improving the current roster of Grineer special units to be larger threats than they are, because fighting Heavy Gunners, Bombardiers and Flamers is currently uneventful, risk-less and boring. I haven't even stated that I think Rollers are perfect. I am not against better overall AI, I am not against new units, I am not against any of the things you describe.

 

I am against the gutting of what I perceive as a fun, challenging enemy in a game where that is a luxury, and is far too seldom seen. All of these suggestions being made only make the Roller easier or less substantial. That is NOT what I believe should be happening.

Edited May 5, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[CrazyCanadian24]

I say just scrap the damn things and get it over with.

 

They don't even match the styling of the Grineer very well.

 

 

I have never, not once, said that Rollers should be the only option for Grineer to be a challenge. I very often speak of improving the current roster of Grineer special units to be larger threats than they are, because fighting Heavy Gunners, Bombardiers and Flamers is currently uneventful, risk-less and boring. I haven't even stated that I think Rollers are perfect. I am not against better overall AI, I am not against new units, I am not against any of the things you describe.

 

I am against the gutting of what I perceive as a fun, challenging enemy in a game where that is a luxury, and is far too seldom seen. All of these suggestions being made only make the Roller easier or less substantial. That is NOT what I believe should be happening.

 

If you want to spice up the Grineer troop roster, FrostWolf came up with something interesting in the Fan Zone: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/20042-this-is-sol-system-network-news-with-an-urgent-update/page-4

 

I know its only fannon, but the Dragoon concept is what interests me here most (though the rest of the material is good for reading, too). Think about it: a Grineer enemy that very nearly matches the Tenno in brute stregnth? That would definantly spcie things up without being quite so annoying as the rollers. Think the Stalker, but a bit less subtle and not as focused. Actually, a lot less subtle.

Edited May 5, 2013 by CrazyCanadian24

[MrTetsuo]

Apparently the thread is meant for people that agree with the op, if you don't, expect to be downvoted (one reason I hate up/down vote forum mechanics). Given the only challenge in the game is in the late Pluto missions (and the occasional encounter with a high level Stalker) I don't see the problem with the rollers right now. They are far from impossible to kill and actually require some aiming (or other tricks like slide attacks, etc).

[AndryB94]

Apparently the thread is meant for people that agree with the op, if you don't, expect to be downvoted (one reason I hate up/down vote forum mechanics). Given the only challenge in the game is in the late Pluto missions (and the occasional encounter with a high level Stalker) I don't see the problem with the rollers right now. They are far from impossible to kill and actually require some aiming (or other tricks like slide attacks, etc).

Ehm... I'm the OP here, and I hate downvotes myself.

I will not downvote people that have a different opinion. In fact, I WANT people to have opinions, no matter how similar or different - it helps understanding what people think of the rollers and they give rise to discussions and suggestions.

I do agree there's a large downvoting spree for anybody that says "but I like rollers!" and I don't really agree on it. I'd rather have people speak their mind (properly) instead of just downvoting.

[Belpharon]

Only issue I have with them is their radius of attack is larger than their hitbox so when you jump over them it hits you, other than that I'm ok with them stunning me and such.

 

 

Yeah I agree.  They really aren't dangerous by themselves but you get two or three of them rolling around when your trying to deal with an entire Assault team bearing down of you....then they become an issue.  However that it the whole point.  Personally I think they are genius.

 

However, your right about the their attack radius, it needs to be the exact size of the ball so that a skilled player can actively jump and dodge them better.

[Sniktch]

Moonicus: Again, there's a perception disconnect - it's NOT "difficulty" or "challenge" to me.  It's frustration and annoyance.  There is a perception of unfairness, because stun/stagger removes player agency.  It makes the gamer feel helpless.  You may enjoy that.  I do not.

 

And before anyone else brings up that tired "you must just suck, stop trying to get stuff nerfed" argument: I play Roguelikes when I'm not playing this.  FTL(normal difficulty).  DoomRL(Ultra-Violence, because the infinite respawns on Nightmare! are annoying).  Dungeons Of Dredmor(Going Rogue).  DoD is the LEAST challenging of those three - and it still will take you upwards of 100 tries to get your first win starting from no knowledge.  I also played Dragon Warrior 2 once, back in the day.  It was also brutally hard - but the difference is, unlike the previous 3?  It did not feel FAIR.  Gold Baboon casts Sacrifice, welcome to instant full-party wipe, no evasion, no counterspell, no save, no block.  I beat it - but I did not enjoy it, and I've never touched the game again.  Over-plentiful stun/stagger in Warframe feels to me like Dragon Warrior 2.

[AndryB94]

Moonicus: Again, there's a perception disconnect - it's NOT "difficulty" or "challenge" to me.  It's frustration and annoyance.  There is a perception of unfairness, because stun/stagger removes player agency.  It makes the gamer feel helpless.  You may enjoy that.  I do not.

 

And before anyone else brings up that tired "you must just suck, stop trying to get stuff nerfed" argument: I play Roguelikes when I'm not playing this.  FTL(normal difficulty).  DoomRL(Ultra-Violence, because the infinite respawns on Nightmare! are annoying).  Dungeons Of Dredmor(Going Rogue).  DoD is the LEAST challenging of those three - and it still will take you upwards of 100 tries to get your first win starting from no knowledge.  I also played Dragon Warrior 2 once, back in the day.  It was also brutally hard - but the difference is, unlike the previous 3?  It did not feel FAIR.  Gold Baboon casts Sacrifice, welcome to instant full-party wipe, no evasion, no counterspell, no save, no block.  I beat it - but I did not enjoy it, and I've never touched the game again.  Over-plentiful stun/stagger in Warframe feels to me like Dragon Warrior 2.

Okay... Not to be rude, but I don't know how your apparent expertise in videogames is of any relevance, especially if they're of other genres?

[Sniktch]

Andry: The intent is to explain that no, I'm not averse to challenge or difficulty - as long as it is a FAIR challenge or difficulty.  DoomRL is fair.  I Wanna Be The Guy is not.  Spelunky is fair.  Dragon Warrior 2 is not.  Certain concepts and feelings carry across genres quite cleanly - removing player agency AKA rendering the player helpless never feels fair to the player.  Thus the reference to Dragon Warrior 2's Sacrifice spell - a non-counterable, non-evadable, 100% guaranteed party-wipe spell, castable by an AI.  It feels remarkably unfair, as it is something that realistically you can do nothing about except hit them with everything and HOPE it kills them before they cast it; in theory, you CAN cast Stopspell on them, but they have 75% resistance to Stopspell, so it's a long shot at best.  Rollers are like that - they remove all agency, leaving you with one "bad" option, one "ugly" option, and one "oh S#&$, not again" option.

[CrazyCanadian24]

I say just scrap the damn things and get it over with.

 

They don't even match the styling of the Grineer very well.

 

 

 

If you want to spice up the Grineer troop roster, FrostWolf came up with something interesting in the Fan Zone: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/20042-this-is-sol-system-network-news-with-an-urgent-update/page-4

 

I know its only fannon, but the Dragoon concept is what interests me here most (though the rest of the material is good for reading, too). Think about it: a Grineer enemy that very nearly matches the Tenno in brute stregnth? That would definantly spcie things up without being quite so annoying as the rollers. Think the Stalker, but a bit less subtle and not as focused. Actually, a lot less subtle.

 

Wow, that post went right over your heads! Look at it go! It's already over the border! And it's still going! Will it ever stop?

[Nedwin]

Okay... Not to be rude, but I don't know how your apparent expertise in videogames is of any relevance, especially if they're of other genres?

You know why I hate Counter-Strike? Because it takes too much time to be good at it. You really have to know everything about weapons, maps, recoil. You need to have perfect aim to make a headshot in that 1 pixel. I hate it because no other game takes so much time to learn how to play it.

Warframe is a third-person shooter, and you know, after playing Counter-Strike at least for 2 hours, aiming at roller is the easiest thing ever.

Every game, both real-life or video game demands some practice.

For example: what if you are noob at chess and lose every match? Would you say that "Its a bad game", or "Chess sucks"? Will somebody change the rules of this game so you would play it better? Dont think so.

The choice is yours: to play better, or to whine on forums. First thing will help you, second - not.

[Patrick-Swayze]

Wow this topic reaks of call of duty babies.

 

The Roller IS frustrating but why shouldn't the game challenge us?

 

Less QQ, more Pew Pew.

[CrazyCanadian24]

Wow this topic reaks of call of duty babies.

 

The Roller IS frustrating but why shouldn't the game challenge us?

 

Less QQ, more Pew Pew.

 

Hard to Pew Pew when you're GETTING STUNLOCKED BY AN ENEMY WITH A HITBOX A THIRD THE SIZE OF ITS ATTACK RADIUS.

[Nedwin]

Hard to Pew Pew when you're GETTING STUNLOCKED BY AN ENEMY WITH A HITBOX A THIRD THE SIZE OF ITS ATTACK RADIUS.

omg delete game

[CrazyCanadian24]

omg delete game

 

omg stop being jackass

[MoonicusMaximus]

Andry: The intent is to explain that no, I'm not averse to challenge or difficulty - as long as it is a FAIR challenge or difficulty.  DoomRL is fair.  I Wanna Be The Guy is not.  Spelunky is fair.  Dragon Warrior 2 is not.  Certain concepts and feelings carry across genres quite cleanly - removing player agency AKA rendering the player helpless never feels fair to the player.  Thus the reference to Dragon Warrior 2's Sacrifice spell - a non-counterable, non-evadable, 100% guaranteed party-wipe spell, castable by an AI.  It feels remarkably unfair, as it is something that realistically you can do nothing about except hit them with everything and HOPE it kills them before they cast it; in theory, you CAN cast Stopspell on them, but they have 75% resistance to Stopspell, so it's a long shot at best.  Rollers are like that - they remove all agency, leaving you with one "bad" option, one "ugly" option, and one "oh S#&$, not again" option.

 

Moonicus: Again, there's a perception disconnect - it's NOT "difficulty" or "challenge" to me.  It's frustration and annoyance.  There is a perception of unfairness, because stun/stagger removes player agency.  It makes the gamer feel helpless.  You may enjoy that.  I do not.

 

And before anyone else brings up that tired "you must just suck, stop trying to get stuff nerfed" argument: I play Roguelikes when I'm not playing this.  FTL(normal difficulty).  DoomRL(Ultra-Violence, because the infinite respawns on Nightmare! are annoying).  Dungeons Of Dredmor(Going Rogue).  DoD is the LEAST challenging of those three - and it still will take you upwards of 100 tries to get your first win starting from no knowledge.  I also played Dragon Warrior 2 once, back in the day.  It was also brutally hard - but the difference is, unlike the previous 3?  It did not feel FAIR.  Gold Baboon casts Sacrifice, welcome to instant full-party wipe, no evasion, no counterspell, no save, no block.  I beat it - but I did not enjoy it, and I've never touched the game again.  Over-plentiful stun/stagger in Warframe feels to me like Dragon Warrior 2.

 

Your comparison is very uneven.

 

This Sacrifice skill is an instant kill, with no warning or way of prevention aside from killing the unit before it eventually casts it. I do not condone instant-kill mechanics unless there are heavy penalties or ways to avoid it.

 

Rollers are not like this, at all. Not even close. You have several ways of killing them before they can become a nuisance to you and bump you around, and even when they do hit you, the damage is negligible and the stagger effect lasts all but a single second.

 

What's more, you are talking about a roleplaying game, not an action game where player skill can actually determine your ability to win or lose. The comparisons are not similar in any fashion, so I cannot really see how you can make a distinction between these two as "feeling unfair", when you are given the tools to kill Rollers from the very beginning and are encouraged to use them.

[Emotitron]

DO NOT NERF DIFFICULT CONTENT.

What are people thinking asking for this stuff? The game is already too easy mode, and you want it easier?

[MJ12]

DO NOT NERF DIFFICULT CONTENT.

What are people thinking asking for this stuff? The game is already too easy mode, and you want it easier?

 

"difficult"? You'd have a point if there was anything 'difficult' about surviving Grinders. No, it's just "don't make a mistake as long as they're around or enjoy your unfun staggerfest." FYI: Not making mistakes is not the only definition of player skill. Relatively unskilled players can make no mistakes, while skilled players can make mistakes. Not only that but difficulty isn't an end in and of itself, it's a method for making the game interesting and fun. If 'difficulty' comes from unfun mechanics, removing it and adding nothing else to compensate is still a good idea. I mean it'd be better if they added in something fun to replace Grinders but at this point I'd be happy with them being set on fire forever.

 

Not because they're hard, I can complete missions with them all the time.

 

Because they're annoying enemies that add nothing but fake difficulty and frustration.

[Madotsuki]

The quoting system goofed up again, so i'll just say here i'm replying to Moonicus. Concerning Fusion Moas, yes, maybe they aren't so different from other Moas. But maybe that's because it is a MOA TOO? It's not a completely new enemy type, of course it has similar behaviour. However, their heat beam needs to be dodged differently, and you need to damage them differently otherwise you risk letting them release the Drone before you kill them. And it actually makes perfect sense to give them higher health and shields than other Moas, but it was a reasonable amount of increase instead of making them Grineer Heavy level of bullet soaking, hence why i don't think of them as Bullet Sponges. It doesn't spice up the faction as much as a completely new species would, but it does add challenge and variety without being obnoxious.

 

And back to Rollers. Another big reason why Rollers are not fun to fight is the sheer lack of things you can do with them. You cannot stagger them with a melee hit. You cannot knock them down with ground slams. You can not stun/panic them with shock/fire damage. Hell it's practically impossible to melee them at all. They don't react with the environment (aside from occasionally getting stuck due to bad pathing), they don't take cover, they have no secondary attack, they barely have any attack pattern other than constantly taking the shortest route back towards you, they do absolutely nothing but roll around randomly trying to nudge you. You can't even JUMP over the tiny balls, they still stagger you in mid-air! Not to mention Grineer bullets in general are hitscan, unlike Corpus bullets which are projectiles, so once you're out in the open you can't even dodge bullets practically. There is zero actual strategy to Rollers other than twitch aiming. And if you can't twitch aim, the only thing you can do is either jump on a box and let 10000 bullets smack you in the face, or run away to a different area where the Roller's AI might bug out and stop moving or stupidly move in a straight line, hence my example of player "interaction" with Rollers in my previous reply. Even assuming that the player has leet skills against Rollers, the description would still simply be "point cursor at incoming bowling balls and click", because there is absolutely nothing else you can do with them.

 

If this many people are complaining about Rollers, then there is clearly something wrong with them. Warframe is not some kind of niche game dedicated to the hardcore and elite. It's a f2p action game that depends on support from its playerbase. If a significantly large portion of the playerbase thinks a certain mechanic or enemy is done wrong, then it is in their best interest to look into it. You might disagree and think this game needs to be 10 times harder, but it would not benefit DE to comply with you because the current trend of gamers is not "i want to get my &#! kicked and have my control taken away constantly". If you like "challenge" so much, ask DE for a "uber ultra extreme" difficulty mode where you can't use mods, there are Rollers/Ancients everywhere, everything is level 100 etc., and with the rewards to match if you do complete it. You can play your ultra difficulty mode, we can play our normal mode where we don't get screwed over by rolly balls. Everyone's happy, no?

 

Maybe our definition of fun is just different. You like being punished around every corner for the tiniest of mistakes, to be whipped repeatedly until you get better. I like having a casual time doing things that i can't in real life and looking like a badass, even if i have to learn how to be one. And FYI, I am not averse to challenge. I played super meat boy from start to finish. I play DmC on Dante Must Die. And when I play Warframe, exclusively solo, I never jump on crates to cheese the AI, even on high-level Infested missions, and I never use ults/invulns unless i'm close to death. Hell i used to just outright not use ults/invulns and just die if that's how it is, until DE screwed that up and made me risk wasting 10+ minutes of my time if i do so. We probably will disagree with each other forever, but I will thank you for actually being civilised throughout all of your discussions. Unlike a bunch of other people whose sole arguments are "lrn2ply or del game" and "lol, COD babies".

[MoonicusMaximus]

The quoting system goofed up again, so i'll just say here i'm replying to Moonicus. Concerning Fusion Moas, yes, maybe they aren't so different from other Moas. But maybe that's because it is a MOA TOO? It's not a completely new enemy type, of course it has similar behaviour. However, their heat beam needs to be dodged differently, and you need to damage them differently otherwise you risk letting them release the Drone before you kill them. And it actually makes perfect sense to give them higher health and shields than other Moas, but it was a reasonable amount of increase instead of making them Grineer Heavy level of bullet soaking, hence why i don't think of them as Bullet Sponges. It doesn't spice up the faction as much as a completely new species would, but it does add challenge and variety without being obnoxious.

 

I never said they weren't Moas. I just stated that Fusion Moas don't actually change my gameplay in any substantial way, and in that fashion, they really don't afford me any different set of challenges beyond target differentiation and priority. They are a special Moas and are infrequent, which is a good reason for them to have more health.

 

Rollers do this. They are a completely different unit in the Grineer arsenal and change my gameplay when they appear.

 

 

And back to Rollers. Another big reason why Rollers are not fun to fight is the sheer lack of things you can do with them. You cannot stagger them with a melee hit. You cannot knock them down with ground slams. You can not stun/panic them with shock/fire damage. Hell it's practically impossible to melee them at all. They don't react with the environment (aside from occasionally getting stuck due to bad pathing), they don't take cover, they have no secondary attack, they barely have any attack pattern other than constantly taking the shortest route back towards you, they do absolutely nothing but roll around randomly trying to nudge you. You can't even JUMP over the tiny balls, they still stagger you in mid-air! Not to mention Grineer bullets in general are hitscan, unlike Corpus bullets which are projectiles, so once you're out in the open you can't even dodge bullets practically.

 

You don't have to stagger them with a melee hit, they usually die in one hit anyway.

 

You don't need to knock them over with ground slams, as if it connects, they usually die.

 

You don't need to stun/panic them with damage elements, because they usually die to the damage. Also, mechanical units are not affected by either shock or fire. This is across the board and Rollers shouldn't suddenly be a difference.

 

It is difficult to melee Rollers. But why in the world would you want to? You have guns. They don't.

 

They don't react to the environment? In what way? Cover?

 

They don't use cover... good gosh, are you really complaining about a machine enemy not caring for its life? Moas don't use cover. Osprey don't use cover. It's part of their fundamental gameplay to attack you without regard for its own safety. That's actually a fairly accurate use of disposable machinery.

 

They don't have a secondary attack, no. Maybe you should suggest one.

 

They don't have a discernible attack pattern because they are meant to move erratically. That's intentional and makes sense given their high-speed-low-health mechanic.

 

They do only roll around and nudge you. Just like Grineer only run around and shoot you. Just like Moas only run up to you and shoot you. Just like Chargers only run up to you and claw you. Just like Ancients only run up to you and jiggly-arm you. That is their purpose, and that's how they attack you.

 

You can't jump over them, yet you can sidestep them easily.

 

There is zero actual strategy to Rollers other than twitch aiming. And if you can't twitch aim, the only thing you can do is either jump on a box and let 10000 bullets smack you in the face, or run away to a different area where the Roller's AI might bug out and stop moving or stupidly move in a straight line, hence my example of player "interaction" with Rollers in my previous reply. Even assuming that the player has leet skills against Rollers, the description would still simply be "point cursor at incoming bowling balls and click", because there is absolutely nothing else you can do with them.

 

By this logic, there is zero actual strategy for every unit in the game. Because all you need to do to win is shoot them. And seeing as you need a moderate amount of movement to properly fight Rollers, by your logic, every other unit in the game can be fought while standing still.

 

When in reality, there is plenty of thinking and action involved in dealing with Rollers. You need to be aware of your surroundings to look for advantages or disadvantages to consider when you know or can hear Rollers coming. You need to be situationally aware of the amount and types of enemies comprising the group you are facing to decide the best way to combat them and the Rollers included within. And yes, you have to aim well. It's a 3rd Person Shooter... it is recommended that you have some measure of ability to aim.

 

However

And if you can't twitch aim, the only thing you can do is either jump on a box and let 10000 bullets smack you in the face, or run away to a different area where the Roller's AI might bug out and stop moving or stupidly move in a straight line,

Or, you could just actually play the game without throwing a hissy fit, which in turn is practicing your twitch aiming and prediction aiming to a point where eventually you can combat Rollers effectively. There is no "the only thing you can do is this" scenario here. You have countless ways to fight Rollers, but one of the best ways is to just play the game and get better. Seriously, when did getting better at a game suddenly not become something desirable? I must have missed this memo.

 

If this many people are complaining about Rollers, then there is clearly something wrong with them. Warframe is not some kind of niche game dedicated to the hardcore and elite. It's a f2p action game that depends on support from its playerbase. If a significantly large portion of the playerbase thinks a certain mechanic or enemy is done wrong, then it is in their best interest to look into it. You might disagree and think this game needs to be 10 times harder, but it would not benefit DE to comply with you because the current trend of gamers is not "i want to get my &#! kicked and have my control taken away constantly". If you like "challenge" so much, ask DE for a "uber ultra extreme" difficulty mode where you can't use mods, there are Rollers/Ancients everywhere, everything is level 100 etc., and with the rewards to match if you do complete it. You can play your ultra difficulty mode, we can play our normal mode where we don't get screwed over by rolly balls. Everyone's happy, no?

 

"This many"? "Significantly large portion?" I see roughly 10 people in this thread who don't like Rollers. Some for very weak reasons, that frequently stem from lack of skill. That is hardly a significant portion of the playerbase. You and I both actually have zero idea just how the majority of Warframe players feel about Rollers. You just have the opinions of those who were interested in this single topic on the forum, which in being anti-Roller in position, surprisingly attracts of majority of people who dislike Rollers rather than a majority of people who like Rollers as they are.

 

Warframe doesn't need to be 10 times harder, but it certainly doesn't need to be 10 times easier. DE has already stated that they believe the game should be more difficult and impart more challenge to players than it currently does. I quite honestly, I would like to play the game the way DE has envisioned it, rather than artificially making it more difficult for myself by taking off all my mods or only using melee weapons. I want to play the game that DE has made, and that includes Rollers, as they are and have been. And if they actually make some sort of hard mode, I might give it a go. But I certainly don't need to suggest anything other than for DE to take the complaints about Rollers with a grain of salt and consider the other side of the argument. They already want the game to be harder and more challenging as a lot of people have been expressing, and I'm glad they listen to their players in this regard.

 

Maybe our definition of fun is just different. You like being punished around every corner for the tiniest of mistakes, to be whipped repeatedly until you get better. I like having a casual time doing things that i can't in real life and looking like a badass, even if i have to learn how to be one. And FYI, I am not averse to challenge. I played super meat boy from start to finish. I play DmC on Dante Must Die. And when I play Warframe, exclusively solo, I never jump on crates to cheese the AI, even on high-level Infested missions, and I never use ults/invulns unless i'm close to death. Hell i used to just outright not use ults/invulns and just die if that's how it is, until DE screwed that up and made me risk wasting 10+ minutes of my time if i do so. We probably will disagree with each other forever, but I will thank you for actually being civilised throughout all of your discussions. Unlike a bunch of other people whose sole arguments are "lrn2ply or del game" and "lol, COD babies".

 

Being punished for mistakes and whipped until you get better was how video games were done when I was growing up. When I lost all my lives, I started the whole game over, and I continued to do so until I got better. When I faced a difficult boss, I would die until I learned how to beat him the right way. If I wanted to beat the game, I was encouraged to be better through progression and failure. Back then, you couldn't mail your complaints to Nintendo and have them send you and updated cartridge with a troublesome enemy removed. You learned to deal with it or you didn't get past it. I didn't beat this copy of Battletoads:Battlemaniacs sitting in my closet until I was 21 and replayed it on a whim, because the jetbike level was actually pretty unforgiving. It didn't stop me from attempting to beat it endlessly when I was little, because while it was frustrating, it was ultimately fun to progressively get better at something and to see your progress by reaching the next level. I grew up learning that in order to get better at something, you need to apply yourself.

 

Anyone can deal with the challenges Rollers represent, you just have to apply yourself to get there.

[Madotsuki]

How do i know a significant portion of the playerbase doesn't like Rollers? Simple, the sheer amount of anti-roller threads that has been popping up over time ever since they were introduced to the game. Oh and there's also the 30 thumbs ups on the OP of this thread i guess. But if you REALLY want some data, since there's also a significant portion of players that don't read the forums, I can go on the wiki and start a poll about Rollers. I'm in charge of the enemies section of the wiki anyway. That should get some results.

 

And yes, games in the past were rediculously difficult. Contra for example. Why? Because the majority of these games were arcade games that were meant to be rediculously difficult so they can suck the money out of your wallets as you pay for continues. Times have changed, and so should games. Again, Warframe was not meant to be a niche game designed specially for the elite gamers. The game is in beta, which means most things can still be subjected to change, so we don't have to stfu and just take it if we don't like something. Your example of "Back then, you couldn't mail your complaints to Nintendo and have them send you and updated cartridge with a troublesome enemy removed" doesn't even remotely apply to the current situation. How old are you? Because you sound like some old guy reminicising about the "good old days" when games were there to kick your &#! repeatedly and modern gamers are too entitled to being able to have fun without being hardcore or something.

 

And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if YOU can "deal" with Rollers. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, how many Rollers and Ancients you can mow down with one hand tied behind your back, because the fact remains that not everyone is as elite as you. And not everyone SHOULD. If DE wants to make Warframe accessible to as many people as possible, and they need to be because they are a free2play game that relies on as large a playerbase as possible, then certain enemies need to be changed. Y'know, because most people nowadays don't enjoy having their control taken away every other second. I got interested in this game after watching TotalBiscuit's WTF is video of it, and thought that a third person shooter with good melee mechanics would be interesting. The official trailer for the game showed badass space ninjas gunning and slicing down countless Grineers, and then working together with their unique abilities to take down a boss, with a distinct lack of stumbling/stagger/knocked downs. With the presence of Rollers, it almost seems like false advertising.

 

Again, if you want "challenge", ask for a hardcore mode. Ask for improved AI, ask for new enemy types. Difficulty levels were invented for a reason. Enemies don't have to rely on stagger mechanics to make a faction challenging neither. DmC for example did not have a single unfair enemy IMO, and yet managed to be perfectly challenging. Witches, Dreamrunners, Rages, there were always multiple ways to counter one, all of which were exciting. Warframe, being also an action game, could easily go that route, instead of making every enemy remove player control.

 

I'm gonna go get that poll started now.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Madotsuki

[MoonicusMaximus]

And yes, games in the past were rediculously difficult. Contra for example. Why? Because the majority of these games were arcade games that were meant to be rediculously difficult so they can suck the money out of your wallets as you pay for continues. Times have changed, and so should games. Again, Warframe was not meant to be a niche game designed specially for the elite gamers. The game is in beta, which means most things can still be subjected to change, so we don't have to stfu and just take it if we don't like something. Your example of "Back then, you couldn't mail your complaints to Nintendo and have them send you and updated cartridge with a troublesome enemy removed" doesn't even remotely apply to the current situation. How old are you? Because you sound like some old guy reminicising about the "good old days" when games were there to kick your &#! repeatedly and modern gamers are too entitled to being able to have fun without being hardcore or something.

 

I wasn't talking about arcade games.

 

I don't mind working towards completing a game that is difficult. I am pretty against people who complain endlessly about something that is visibly fine and working as intended, and would rather have the game change completely around them rather than themselves changing to get better at the game. It's selfish and spoiled, and in your words, quite entitled. That is what is happening here, to me; people are finding something that is meant to be difficult, are seeing that it is actually difficult, and instead of trying to get better, which takes time and effort, they would much rather just whine about it in hopes that the developer will get nervous enough to cave in to their demands. I've seen far too many games sputter and fall to the noisy, loud minority on their forums giving terrible advice and feedback. When games and developers start caving in to the loudest part of their playerbase, they inevitably fail. Warframe doesn't have to be that way, but all it takes is a single step for everything to start rolling.

 

And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if YOU can "deal" with Rollers. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, how many Rollers and Ancients you can mow down with one hand tied behind your back, because the fact remains that not everyone is as elite as you. And not everyone SHOULD. If DE wants to make Warframe accessible to as many people as possible, and they need to be because they are a free2play game that relies on as large a playerbase as possible, then certain enemies need to be changed. Y'know, because most people nowadays don't enjoy having their control taken away every other second. I got interested in this game after watching TotalBiscuit's WTF is video of it, and thought that a third person shooter with good melee mechanics would be interesting. The official trailer for the game showed badass space ninjas gunning and slicing down countless Grineers, and then working together with their unique abilities to take down a boss, with a distinct lack of stumbling/stagger/knocked downs. With the presence of Rollers, it almost seems like false advertising.

 

I don't consider myself elite in any way, shape or form. I am starting to think that I am, at the moment, better at certain aspects of this game than some people, made apparent by how my viewpoint on Rollers isn't being screwed by my inability to combat them, but this doesn't make me inherently better. Anyone can do what I do.

 

Yes, DE should be trying to make Warframe appeal to a wide audience. But who is to say your audience is what DE should be appealing to? There are plenty of people out there who want to be challenged while they have their fun, myself included. Who is to say my playerbase isn't larger than yours?

 

Your arguments about why 'Roller stagger is bad' is tired at this point as well. I've already explained why they do it, what purpose it serves and why it's better to leave it as it is rather than change it unless some radical changes occur throughout the entirety of the game itself. Rather, you and several others seem to be focused on removing stuns and staggers, despite the purpose they serve as a counter to Tenno movement, simply because "I don't like being not being rewarded for my poor performance". You are still quite able to do all of those "badass space ninja moves", you just have to have the actual skill to accomplish it, rather than running the broad side of your face across your keyboard and watching Grineer burst like blood balloons. The very idea that people want to turn this game from something DE intended to present difficulty and challenge into a candid romp through the meadows of effortlessness doesn't sit right with me. If you want to be a space ninja, start playing like one. If you don't like not being able to do things without effort, in a game in which DE has already stated they would like to take effort to perform well in, then perhaps this isn't the game you thought it would be.

 

Again, if you want "challenge", ask for a hardcore mode. Ask for improved AI, ask for new enemy types. Difficulty levels were invented for a reason. Enemies don't have to rely on stagger mechanics to make a faction challenging neither. DmC for example did not have a single unfair enemy IMO, and yet managed to be perfectly challenging. Witches, Dreamrunners, Rages, there were always multiple ways to counter one, all of which were exciting. Warframe, being also an action game, could easily go that route, instead of making every enemy remove player control.

 

And if you want stuns removed, ask for a softcore mode. I don't have to ask for anything at this point, as I'm in the position of which I like the game as it is currently. Changes to Rollers do not fit into what is currently DE's direction, and while this is subject to change, to this moment it has not, despite "massive public outcry". Don't change the way the game currently is without a reason beyond your distaste for how it is. Give something more substantial than "I don't care much for it". Then I might be more inclined to agree, because right now, there really is little more than that being given.

 

And DmC and Warframe are two completely different games. Not even close to similar. The way things work in DmC does not translate into Warframe on any level.

Edited May 6, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[MJ12]

What the hell? People are giving legitimate arguments, such as the fact that Grinders have no real counter besides bugging them out, hiding on boxes, or aiming at a tiny rapidly moving target, all of which are either bug exploitation, AI exploitation, or a skill level beyond what is expected for the vast majority of the game that stays constant the moment they're introduced, the fact that Grinders provide absolutely nothing and do not interact in any interesting way, shape or form with the environment, the player, or anything else, the fact that Grinders are an absolutely simple 8-bit enemy type which is basically a zero-effort enemy designed to create zero-effort difficulty by removing player agency, the fact that there are plenty of easy ways, such as grenades, to do exactly what the Grinders are supposed to do without the same frustration, and did I mention taking away player agency is a last resort?

 

I'm fairly sure what I'm seeing Madotsuki argue for is the game to retain the difficulty Rollers provide without the frustration they engender, which is significantly different from your deliberate misinterpretation of his statement as "Rollers are hard get rid of them."

 

And you boil that down to "I don't care much for it". That's a joke. Your argument is only "I WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO SUFFER AND TO LAUGH AT THEM", if we boil down your argument to such a hilarious strawman.

 

Take a look at Vanquish if you insist DmC can't be analogized to this game because it's not exactly the same genre or design. It's a third person fast-paced shooter just like Warframe. You will notice the existence of exactly zero possibilities of stunlock (you do occasionally stagger if you take very heavy fire, but you recover very quickly and cannot repeatedly get staggered). You will notice the game still manages to have a difficulty ranging from 'challenging' (on Normal) to 'absolutely vicious' (on the hardest difficulty). Their equivalents to the Grinder are many. You have guided attack bits which float high up and deal damage/keep you from using your slow-motion, enemies which can burrow through the ground and instant kill you if that slow-moving burrow attack hits, plenty of enemies with grenades, tall enemies who can see over your cover, and flying enemies who can bypass your cover.

 

A multitude of ways to deal with you hiding behind cover and camping for headshots. None of which rely on stunlock. And before you go "but this can't translate into Warframe because things die fast" guess what? Non-boss non-miniboss enemies die really fast in Vanquish too! The shotgun in that game may be even more overpowered than the Hek!

Edited May 6, 2013 by MJ12