For All The People About To Argue On The Alerts.

[Damonvile]

Of course you disagree.. If you agreed you wouldn't be posting the same things over...and over...and over again. Beating a dead horse into dust isn't providing valuable feedback when it turns other conversations into the same tired thread they've already acknowledged. Getting threads locked because the mods are sick of seeing the same posters arguing the same points isn't constructive criticism of the game. It's just people who need more going on in their life than this game.

 

It's why it's called ranting.

[Blatantfool]

I think maybe, at some point, you lost track of what the point of a Beta forum is.

[Damonvile]

I had no problems with the previous alert system that went to my email.

RSS/twitter is broken at the core - the delay on it is sometimes 20 minutes when the alert is only 30 minutes long!  While some of you say "the third party app/program someone made" works.  I shouldn't have to rely on NON-DE stuff to have functioning alerts.

I just missed out on a catalyst because the alert only appeared in my RSS feed 15 minutes after the fact.  By the time I had logged in - it was over by a whopping 1 minute. :|

The most basic and simple solution would to just make all ? alerts last more than 30 minutes.  

It's just too frustrating =.= Making them last 2x as long would not be breaking anyones bones.   But it gives breathing room for the errors in the current official systems.

I don't know how they manage the items in the alerts or if it's just random but it does become somewhat frustrating to see the same artifacts come up over and over during the times you play and then see the stuff you're looking for only seem to show up while you're at work or sleeping ( or whatever)

 

A better rotation or longer alerts would be nice.

[Blatantfool]

Yeah, that'd be a decent short term fix for Alerts. Make them less of a hassle.

[Damonvile]

I think maybe, at some point, you lost track of what the point of a Beta forum is.

a beta forum is for ranting about the same thing over and over.. I never knew that. Anyway, I've broken the golden rule about arguing on a forum, you clearly are the one with the experience here.

[Blatantfool]

a beta forum is for ranting about the same thing over and over.. I never knew that. Anyway, I've broken the golden rule about arguing on a forum, you clearly are the one with the experience here.

 

 You need to cool your jets. 

[Lifeshield]

I feel like waiting for the right Alerts to pop up is the very essence of stale, as you know for sure playing more will do nothing to get you closer to those items you need.

 

But you don't need the Glaive. You, and others, want it without having to pay for it in the market or wait for the Alert to pop up, and there's a massive difference there.

 

I'm still of the opinion that Stalker should be buffed and then have a random chance to drop it, but then people would probably still complain about that. People will probably complain until the end of the earth unless it's made available as a Blueprint in the market, buyable with Credits, so they can instant craft it with all the materials and credits they've amassed over weeks of playing.

 

If you don't have the patience to wait for it, buy it. If you don't have the money to buy it, wait for it. Your time will eventually come. What is there to really get worked up about? It's not like it's a Platinum exclusive item only.

 

I really just do not get all the fuss over an in-game item that's available to anyone with a bit of patience.

[dEEkAy2k9]

Tell me how farming a BP for a Warframe is different from doing an Alert when you take into account that you have a drop chance for a BP but can do runs every 5 minutes VERY EASY instead of a guaranteed drop every couple of hours and even less when you have alot of items already from the Alert droplist.

 

I think your definition of "work for something" is very different to mine and it would be interesting to hear yours.

it's something YOU can control. you either go farm that boss for it'S BPs or you don't. You decide if you want to try your luck or not. If it does not drop the first 10 times, you can do 10 more.

 

the alerts just happen randomly, random times, random rewards. i went to a friend yesterday to wach football/soccer, whatever word suits you and right as i arrived there, a friend whatsapped me that he missed the glaive alert, no chance for me to get it either. cool...

[GhostlightX]

Look at the facts:

 

a) New desirable weapon has to be hard to get, or else DE would never sell it for platinum. Everyone (I hope) accepts this.

 

b) Word-of-mouth when an alert starts that drops it spreads so efficiently now that everyone who can physically get to their PC and play the game will do so and get the Glaive.

 

c) Again due to that same efficient word-of-mouth, everyone who could not make it is now very pissed. And their anger is aimed squarely at the game and its developer (not good for a game in Beta. In fact incredibly bad).

 

SO this is the worst case scenario with the following knock-on effects:

 

From (a): DE probably made little money from their new weapon because so many people actually got it due to (b)

From (b): Once word of mouth spreads, getting the new weapon is 100% guaranteed as long as you can log in. This means it isn't special any more.

From ©: People will quit (or worse still never start in the first place) because of this.

 

A much better plan is to make it a rare random drop from a random boss, perhaps increasing the drop chance slightly for harder bosses on outer systems. Now look what happens:

 

 

From (a): New weapon is now genuinely rare so more people will crack and buy it = more profit for DE

From (b): The weapon is now special again as there is no guaranteed way for a huge mass of players to get it at the same time

From ©: People will rage against the RNG god instead of the game, so fewer will quit.

[GhostlightX]

You may feel like the current system doesn't let you "earn" your random rewards, but you sure as hell act like you are entitled to it.

 

This is precisely the problem. Because being there to run the correct Alert (which, let's face it you are NOT going to fail) is not earning anything by any stretch of the imagination. It is being given it. Hence this causes the entitlement feeling in everyone who wasn't lucky enough to be there at the right time.

[GhostlightX]

If you don't have the patience to wait for it, buy it. If you don't have the money to buy it, wait for it. Your time will eventually come. What is there to really get worked up about? 

 

Because people want option 3....if you do not have the money to buy it, then go EARN it. Far more satisfying than "waiting"

[Quetzhal]

a beta forum is for ranting about the same thing over and over.. I never knew that. Anyway, I've broken the golden rule about arguing on a forum, you clearly are the one with the experience here.

The same points are being made against the alert system because the same points are being made for it. There's no real fault to be placed anywhere; someone makes a point, and that point is refuted using arguments that also happened to be used in another thread (because that same point was also made in the other thread). It's certainly better than linking that thread and telling them to read through 48 pages of debate, haha.

 

But you don't need the Glaive. You, and others, want it without having to pay for it in the market or wait for the Alert to pop up, and there's a massive difference there.

That really isn't true - not for most of the people arguing for it and certainly not Cali, whose argument has been about the flaws of the alert system from the start. Plus, I believe he already has the Glaive.

There are three ways games can reward you: They can reward you for skill, which is effectively presenting a player with a challenge and rewarding them for completing it. They can reward you for dedication, which is basically what grinding is - repeating something over and over until RNG favours you. Finally, they can reward you for sheer luck. That's what alerts are - they reward people who happen to be in the right place and at the right time.

The last way is the least effective way to engage players. You want players in the game, not waiting around. The first way - challenge - is ideal, but will alienate the more casual portion of the playerbase, who wouldn't be able to get a hold of it. The second is the middle ground: Not quite ideal, but satisfactory, and people wouldn't really get angry over it.

But that's just alerts in general. Alerts are effectively a random event system. Random event systems are cool, and perfect for cosmetic items or items that don't really influence gameplay (the Heat Dagger does not influence gameplay). It doesn't work for the Glaive because the Glaive offers a new mechanic - it allows you to hit enemies while remaining in cover, and is a ranged weapon that can be reused ad infinitum. Since it's a mechanical rather than aesthetic difference, players should be able to work towards it rather than win it with no effort of any kind.

What it boils down to is simply whether or not you believe the mechanic is important enough that free players should be able to access it on their own terms. I do. It's important to give free players the feeling of control, even if that feeling of control is effectively an illusion. As in grinding. Because that way, you prevent outcries on the forums while securing customer loyalty. I'm speaking from a strictly business point of view, there, not a personal one. Personally speaking, grinding and overcoming challenge are ways to actually earn something, and is superior to simply lucking out.

On that note: That's the reason the argument that DE needs to profit doesn't hold enough weight, in my opinion. Yes, a weapon like the Glaive being only immediately obtainable by alert and platinum will quickly bring in many purchases - at the cost of the community fracturing, and players losing faith in the developers. Short term profit, yes. I'm not sure it's very sustainable in the long term. Again, not speaking from my personal point of view - I still think DE is awesome. I'm merely observing that there are players who will take the situation the wrong way.

That point is a bit moot, though, as DE is already dealing with the situation. I doubt that they'll repeat this, and hopefully they'll also bring in some fixes to the alert system so that all of this stops.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Quetzhal

[Loswaith]

 I feel like the Alert system isn't actually the problem - it is just that Warframe players are able to chew through the weapon selection that IS available in the market quite fast. We always need more badly. There is never going to be enough at the rate we get this stuff.

 

 We could really do with DE expanding the way we have to earn weapons. Actually making us work for it. Adding a serious reason for you to set a goal and either play your arse off or chip away at it.

 

 This goes hand in hand with how I mentioned that players would really appreciate things that are goals. More weapons will come over time and that is part of the cure - but what will do a lot to help is changing the way we EARN some things. 

 

 

 Why not add a weapon that has a set chance to be the reward for reaching Wave 25 in Defense? How about another weapon that requires 50?

 

 How about a weapon BP awarded to the player after successful driving away the Stalker a significant number of times?

 

 

 Gotta expand upon this eventually anyway.

 

I dont think it's about the time it takes to earn weapons moreso about how fast you can rank them up to 30, and move on to the next one (taking longer to rank them).

 

A possible solution to that is have the orokin catalysts not actually double the mod points but open them to going to rank 60.  Given the base stats of weapons never change based on the rank of the weapon (that I've noticed), this would mean allot more time spent before the weapons become 'maxed out', likely around the 3-4 times mark given the ever increasing affinity per rank.

 

@Quetzhal:  Actually the fire blast on a heat dagger/heat swords goes through cover so you can hit stuff hiding behind it, not sure if a molten impact mod does this though.

 

I think challenge is the best way to do that, not challenge by inherant difficulity but challenge through multiple obsticals (eg. clearing a planetary system as a warframe example).  This gives both casual and hardcore players something to strive for.  Most casual players also get that it may take them longer but with a difinitve goal dont mind as much as they can see their progress having an effect.

 

Grinding is typically more advantageous to hardcore players because they tend to play in longer chunks, can play harder difficulities, or are often faster at getting through the same content as a casual player does, thus get more itterations of potential rewards.  Grinding is also easier for developers as they dont need arching quest/task lines or overarching goals, just one mission/boss/dungeon/whatever.

 

The alert system is fair to both casuals and hardcore, as the missions can show up at any time thus either side can equally miss out due to simply not being available to play at that timeframe, the frequency and length of alerts in Warframe's case is more the issue as it tends to be more miss prone than hit prone.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Loswaith

[Quetzhal]

Also a possibility: I believe Venarge had a thread where he was talking about splitting up the Glaive blueprint into multiple parts, and someone else was talking about applying this to all weapons. Now, I don't think that's really very practical given the time that would take (for the dev team), though that's personal opinion.

There is, however, the option of giving us customisable weapons. In other words, model a few variations of a blade, a few variations of a hilt, etcetera. Make them somewhat difficult to get. Make them have different effects. A lot of effort, yes - but then suddenly you have people farming for months to make their perfect blade, then trying another one, and another one... etcetera. Plenty of time to use this as a buffer to make more weapons! Also, I like the idea of Tenno having unique and individual blades.

[Quetzhal]

@Quetzhal:  Actually the fire blast on a heat dagger/heat swords goes through cover so you can hit stuff hiding behind it, not sure if a molten impact mod does this though.

 

I think challenge is the best way to do that, not challenge by inherant difficulity but challenge through multiple obsticals (eg. clearing a planetary system as a warframe example).  This gives both casual and hardcore players something to strive for.  Most casual players also get that it may take them longer but with a difinitve goal dont mind as much as they can see their progress having an effect.

 

Grinding is typically more advantageous to hardcore players because they tend to play in longer chunks, can play harder difficulities, or are often faster at getting through the same content as a casual player does, thus get more itterations of potential rewards.  Grinding is also easier for developers as they dont need arching quest/task lines or overarching goals, just one mission/boss/dungeon/whatever.

 

The alert system is fair to both casuals and hardcore, as the missions can show up at any time thus either side can equally miss out due to simply not being available to play at that timeframe, the frequency and length of alerts in Warframe's case is more the issue as it tends to be more miss prone than hit prone.

As far as I know, any charged attack and jump hits through cover (and also we have the heat swords, which I think can do the same thing?). Not sure if molten impact does either. What the Glaive does is let you hit enemies around cover, though - not quite the same thing.

As to your other points: Grinding and challenge, fair enough! Good points. That and I pretty much agree. Challenge through multiple obstacles is an interesting way to go about it, though a combination of the two could be fun. Skilled? Take the harder route through the planetary system, and do less missions to get to the boss. Not so skilled? Take the easier route, but you'll have to do a few more missions before you reach the end.

As to the alert system, I'd more argue that it's equally unfair (no effort involved) - I'd rather a game encourage you to play it as opposed to encourage you to wait to play it. I do see your point, though, but if a game is to be equally unfair, it should be with cosmetics. :D /opinion

Edited May 2, 2013 by Quetzhal

[Loswaith]

Fair or Unfair I was avoiding which is why I went for balanced, as I can see both the fair and unfair rationales for the system.  I dont think the system is perfect however and there are many things that can move it closer to the fair side and further away from the unfair side.

 

Oh I agree encouraging playing is better than not, the carrot approach is always a better option than the stick approach.

 

There can also be unfair but thats better left for pure cosmetics, rather than pseudo cosmetics which allot of the alert weapons/helmets fall into because they still change aspects and ways you can play the game (same as vastly different mechanics), rather than just a specific look.

[Quetzhal]

Fair or Unfair I was avoiding which is why I went for balanced, as I can see both the fair and unfair rationales for the system.  I dont think the system is perfect however and there are many things that can move it closer to the fair side and further away from the unfair side.

 

Oh I agree encouraging playing is better than not, the carrot approach is always a better option than the stick approach.

 

There can also be unfair but thats better left for pure cosmetics, rather than pseudo cosmetics which allot of the alert weapons/helmets fall into because they still change aspects and ways you can play the game (same as vastly different mechanics), rather than just a specific look.

Fair enough! No pun intended, haha.