Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Ronyn]

Well, the two things are linked - the reason the aggro draw aspect got chucked was due to the fact that we (rightly) pointed out way back when that an Iron Skin that didn't scale simply no longer had the "oomph" to make drawing a bullseye on your face for every gun in range anything other than a liability for high-level play, which is when you'd most need that sort of utility.

 

So it's kinda been in an awkward spot since. The old duration-based IS was in a better position, mechanics/gameplay-wise; even if flat invincibility was too much, the skill was typically used in the role it was meant to be used in - e.g. friendly down? Pop IS and eat the bullets so you can go rez him/her and get 'em back in the fight.

Yep.

 

 

As-is, at higher levels, it's simply not viable to use it in that sort of role anymore since it lasts for less time than the cast animation.

I've found that I can make it last a decent amount of time at pretty good levels as long as I stack various power strength mods.

Of course, as you can probably tell from my earlier post I am not pleased with how that plays out.

[Rakosta_Kai]

With no disrespect to the OP...

 

These are bad ideas.

 

IS doesn't need a buff.

Rhino isn't a tank, he is tanky... As in "tank-like". He has higher armor, shields, and health... That's it.  It used to be different and he used to be an actual tank, but those days are over.

Make him any more tanky and Stomp's status effect will get neutered. I like Stomp the way it is.

 

On a side note: While this may sound slightly misogynistic... Why are there so many more female tank frames than there are male? One would expect an even number between the two. I had never actually given that notion thought until right now...

 

Back on topic:

Primed Warframes shouldn't have such a large distinction from their regular counterparts as what you have suggested... The ones they have are enough and shouldn't be increased.

It takes the notion of Primes from player preference to endgame requirement. Which is a problem we frequently have with weapons now.

[Holeypaladin]

Primes kind of are the endgame equipment, these days.  Rhino's base stats really don't make him tanky enough... at high levels, abilities are the main contributor to how tanky you are, not your shields/health/armor.

 

The primed iron skin idea listed here is pretty similar to second iteration iron skin (which was changed because players at the time didn't understand how much better it was).

[Kruglov]

Primes kind of are the endgame equipment, these days.  Rhino's base stats really don't make him tanky enough... at high levels, abilities are the main contributor to how tanky you are, not your shields/health/armor.

 

The primed iron skin idea listed here is pretty similar to second iteration iron skin (which was changed because players at the time didn't understand how much better it was).

 

 

No it was changed because it was overpowered and Rhino was literally invincible and there was no reason to choose any other frame besides Rhino.

 

 

It's cute that you are trying to bump all your awful spam threads but please don't lie outright. Nobody here will fall for it.

[Holeypaladin]

I was referring to second iteration, not first.  Please read the full context of the post before sounding like an idiot.  Thanks.

[Azawarau]

They will what exactly? I know they are supposed to be looking at balance in general but has there been any word on them looking at what stats effect powers?

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. Consider this: DE has made several changes, some stick, some revert, some make sense at the time then not later...

etc. they have said that themselves. So getting rid of rhinos ability to effectively draw aggro may not be something that is right for the frame in the current meta. Besides, are we supposed to not ask for certain ability tweaks we think are best for the game just because DE may or may not feel differently? 

 

I don't think that "cliche" is really fair to call that.

When DE called rhino the "heaviest frame" in the flavor text they obviously want to evoke some kind of combat related imagery and not just "this guys weighs a lot". Thinking they were speaking in military terms is the most reasonable way to take that kind of stuff.

I was too lazy to add the trademark symbol to that soon

 

Im not really getting at what hes supposed to be so much as attracting aggro is purely a support theme more than tanking (in the sense of taking alot of damage)

 

I say Cliche because one of the things DE has gone against at times are norms in gaming

 

Having a female be the tankiest is relatively unusual

 

Having two that stand out as tanks without abilities even moreso

 

The female gunslinger seems to be one as well. People kept saying she should have been male for some reason

 

And if were going to go off flavor text Valkyr has plenty of reason to beat rhino unlike other frames who can tank for reasons unknown

 

I bring valkyr into this because OPs previous thread that really should be merged with this one suggested flipping valkyr and rhinos armor because valkyr shouldnt be a tank just because.

 

Rhino should be a top tier tank without a doubt

 

But because of the way valkyr functions shell have to be tougher or be obsoleted unless changed entirely

[Rakosta_Kai]

Primes kind of are the endgame equipment, these days. 

 

Primes Warframes aren't.

Primed Weapons shouldn't be.

 

 

 Rhino's base stats really don't make him tanky enough... at high levels, abilities are the main contributor to how tanky you are, not your shields/health/armor.

 

 

That's because he isn't a tank...

His mechanics don't support the notion of him being a tank. Back when IS was a tank skill, Stomp made him OP.

To compare Rhino to any classical archetypes would be to compare him to a Barbarian or Warrior. He has some defense, control, mitigation, and can pump his damage up.  If we were actually talking about buffs that fit his current role, we'd be talking about buffs to Roar as opposed to Iron Skin or adding some measure of reflect to IS.

 

 

The primed iron skin idea listed here is pretty similar to second iteration iron skin (which was changed because players at the time didn't understand how much better it was).

 

The primed Iron Skin idea is a number of things:

Blatantly Discriminatory to the regular variant which removes choice

Over Powered when applied to Rhino's current ability set.

Against the current Meta

Outside the boundaries of balance as it's only a plea for IS to be buffed for endless content

 

 

My personal outlook is that your base idea for IS changes has merit only if Stomp gets is effect dramatically reduced.

 

[Holeypaladin]

Second iteration iron skin was 85%.  The 75% is actually a nerf from it.  Besides, 75% is what Mirage has, so it's not ridiculous considering it already exists.

 

Valkyr is a berserker, not a tank.  But she's still the tankiest warframe in the game, which is pretty silly.  Besides, she's still the only warframe with complete invulnerability for 77 seconds... there's no invalidating that.

[Holeypaladin]

When you think about it... primed iron skin wouldn't make rhino prime any more powerful than Loki.

 

Loki has invisibility, making it impossible to target him.

 

Loki has radial disarm, the absolute best CC in the game, especially when irradiating.

 

I don't see anyone crying out for nerfs to Loki, so why are people against the idea of Rhino Prime approaching Loki's power level but in a different way... tanking damage rather than avoiding it entirely with invisibility?

 

It's quite clear from all of the lore that Rhino Prime is supposed to be the tankiest warframe in the game, since heaviest = tankiest.  When he's not, it means some things aren't lining up correctly.

 

He can't invalidate Valkyr, since Valkyr has the berserker feel rather than the tank feel.  All it would do is make people who want to play Rhino Prime as a tank, play Rhino Prime as a tank.  Rather than playing other frames as a tank since Rhino Prime isn't good enough to tank.

[Azawarau]

Second iteration iron skin was 85%.  The 75% is actually a nerf from it.  Besides, 75% is what Mirage has, so it's not ridiculous considering it already exists.

 

Valkyr is a berserker, not a tank.  But she's still the tankiest warframe in the game, which is pretty silly.  Besides, she's still the only warframe with complete invulnerability for 77 seconds... there's no invalidating that.

Youre forgetting that mirage has extremely situational DR that doesnt come with CC immunity

 

She doesnt have a panic CC stun

 

She doesnt have rhinos HP, shields, or armor

 

If youre going to keep making these ridiculous comparisons youre not going to prove a thing

 

Youre saying valkyr is supposed to be a berserker the same way you say rhino isnt a tank

 

You just say it with nothing to back it up but "because i say so"

 

Hysteria is broken and you already know thats my view on it so bringing it up at this point is pointless

[Azawarau]

When you think about it... primed iron skin wouldn't make rhino prime any more powerful than Loki.

 

Loki has invisibility, making it impossible to target him.

 

Loki has radial disarm, the absolute best CC in the game, especially when irradiating.

 

I don't see anyone crying out for nerfs to Loki, so why are people against the idea of Rhino Prime approaching Loki's power level but in a different way... tanking damage rather than avoiding it entirely with invisibility?

 

It's quite clear from all of the lore that Rhino Prime is supposed to be the tankiest warframe in the game, since heaviest = tankiest.  When he's not, it means some things aren't lining up correctly.

 

He can't invalidate Valkyr, since Valkyr has the berserker feel rather than the tank feel.  All it would do is make people who want to play Rhino Prime as a tank, play Rhino Prime as a tank.  Rather than playing other frames as a tank since Rhino Prime isn't good enough to tank.

Lokis invisibility scales evenly on every level because it has to to function correctly

 

It was changed enough that he isnt in a forever god mode anymore because people called for it

 

Again , you make ridiculous arguments with no point at all

 

Heaviest =/= tankiest by defualt

 

Its very clear from the lore and design that Valkyr was designed to be the face tank while rhino was designed to be a supportive tank who can still face tank in his own right

 

Dont forget her name is Valkyr, as in Valkyrie

 

If rhino prime can outtank valkyr then the only thing valkyr has on him is status stacking VS rhinos damage boost and better damage mitigation

 

Hed face tank better outright and thats kind of what valkyr does right now

[Holeypaladin]

Because DE says so.

 

Mirage was never intended to be a tank, and yet she is tankier than the tank.  There's no reason THE tank shouldn't be as tanky in the light as Mirage is in shadows.

 

Valkyr has 81% damage absorb from her armor alone.  And a buff to increase her armor.  And lifesteal.  So while she does take a small amount of damage on her health, she can heal it pretty easily by going into lifesteal mode or just using life strike.  And she does have a panic CC stun called Paralysis.  Most everyone has some kind of panic CC stun, actually.

 

People who want to use a berserker will still use Valkyr, but people who want to use Rhino as a tank will return to using Rhino as a  tank, rather than being forced to use him as a damage support guy instead.  He should have the option to be both, depending how you mod and spend your energy.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Azawarau]

Because DE says so.

 

Mirage was never intended to be a tank, and yet she is tankier than the tank.  There's no reason THE tank shouldn't be as tanky in the light as Mirage is in shadows.

 

Valkyr has 81% damage absorb from her armor alone.  And a buff to increase her armor.  And lifesteal.  So while she does take a small amount of damage on her health, she can heal it pretty easily by going into lifesteal mode or just using life strike.  And she does have a panic CC stun called Paralysis.  Most everyone has some kind of panic CC stun, actually.

 

People who want to use a berserker will still use Valkyr, but people who want to use Rhino as a tank will return to using Rhino as a  tank, rather than being forced to use him as a damage support guy instead.  He should have the option to be both, depending how you mod and spend your energy.

The problem is you jump right to mirage

 

First off she cant tank reliably

 

Second if her tanking were the issue the solution wouldnt be to buff iron skin

 

Why not bring down Eclipse? What is your issue with actually fixing the issue?

 

Valkyrs armor doesnt account for shields or shield regen

 

Rhino would have Health and armor with Dr on top of that and on top of regening shields. Not to mention pet regen.

 

And this is entirely ignoring that he has a wide area CC

 

You have not thought this through at all

Edited January 13, 2015 by Azawarau

[The_Real_007]

Seriously forget Rhino now, check this $hit out.

 

 

95% damage reduction.

 

Imagine a Paris Prime doing 15,000 damage. To a Mirage with eclipse (in shadows, of course)? 

 

750 damage. 

 

What. The. F***.

[Heidrek]

Hysteria's invulnerability was probably a way to make a melee based ulti without getting killed. Think about it. You run into an enemy and claw him up a bit and then get shot by ranged enemies. As for making rhino's iron skin percentage based... that's sorta stealing Trinity's thunder. Trinity's link is based off percentage, which is superior to Rhino's Health based Iron Skin at high levels. So even though Rhino is not an eligible facetank he could stun enemies by Stomping. When I say Trinity is a better tank, it's probably used to make her more survivable, as her skills are entirely support with no CC at all. 

Edited January 13, 2015 by Heidrek

[Azawarau]

Seriously forget Rhino now, check this $hit out.

 

 

95% damage reduction.

 

Imagine a Paris Prime doing 15,000 damage. To a Mirage with eclipse (in shadows, of course)? 

 

750 damage. 

 

What. The. F***.

Thats incredibly misleading

 

You should be ashamed

 

Hysteria's invulnerability was probably a way to make a melee based ulti without getting killed. Think about it. You run into an enemy and claw him up a bit and then get shot by ranged enemies. As for making rhino's iron skin percentage based... that's sorta stealing Trinity's thunder. Trinity's link is based off percentage, which is superior to Rhino's Health based Iron Skin at high levels. So even though Rhino is not an eligible facetank he could stun enemies by Stomping. When I say Trinity is a better tank, it's probably used to make her more survivable, as her skills are entirely support with no CC at all. 

Hysterias invulnerability wasnt needed after life strike was released

 

It fixed Valkyrs prblem

 

Hysteria itself was more a band aid than anything

[Heidrek]

P.S We have 22 FRAMES. Of course skills are going to be similar and clash with each other. and IMO I rather DE pause making frames and weapons (200), and either set the weapons and warframes into a mastery rank system, or at least tweak them until they each have their own DIFFERENT playstyle. The reason I emphasize different is because multiple warframes are similar or inferior in some aspects. Example Ash's Smoke Screen and Loki's Smokescreen, Trinity's link and Blessing (pardoned), Valkyr's Hysteria(pardoned), and Rhino's Iron Skin. There should be no invisibility for any frame.
Rhino's Iron Skin definitely falls off at higher levels, even though it helps to not get oneshotted, by status or even the stupid bombard, but its just that other skill's like Loki's invisibility, nekros's terror and ulti, and trinity's link do a better job than face tanking to help a teammate. So something has to be done about Iron Skin's falloff at higher levels because the enemy's damage scale endlessly and THAT will obliterate a health based Iron Skin in seconds. 

[Azawarau]

You just called Terrify and SOTD better than Iron skin for face tanking

 

Credibility = 0

[Heidrek]

Thats incredibly misleading

 

You should be ashamed

 

Hysterias invulnerability wasnt needed after life strike was released

 

It fixed Valkyrs prblem

 

Hysteria itself was more a band aid than anything

I know, but who's going to want to lose invisibility mode? no one. It's feels awesome to with stand the attacks of level 100 gunners in the void. So DE made another clever addition, the nullifiers. Get rid of relying on invisibility ability. You don't need those crutches  +100 for DE.  

You just called Terrify and SOTD better than Iron skin for face tanking

 

Credibility = 0

Not face tanking, evading. Id rather have my enemies not shoot at me at all rather than shoot at me. Also I said these skills do a better job than face tanking. NOT A BETTER JOB THAN FACETANKING

Edited January 13, 2015 by Heidrek

[Heidrek]

You just called Terrify and SOTD better than Iron skin for face tanking

 

Credibility = 0

CAUTIOUSNESS AND LITERACY = 0

[Thaumatos]

I would just make blocking cost 0 stamina while Iron Skin is active.

 

Problem solved.

[Holeypaladin]

The fact that iron skin is even weaker than Mag's ability in the void... means that it has fallen well behind where it should be.

 

Anyway, I don't ever ask for nerfs.  Let Mirage keep her shadow invulnerability, just give Rhino a similar power that works in the light.  And bring back snow globe invulnerability... the bombards already turn the inside of that globe into a death trap, so it might as well last the full duration.

 

Blocking only works when you're in melee-only mode.  Rhino is not a melee frame, that's Valkyr.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Holeypaladin]

Heavy DOES equal tanky.  Ask anyone who knows what the military definition of tanky is.

 

Valkyr is a melee berserker frame.  That's her premise.  People who want to play a melee berserker will play Valkyr.  People who want to play a tank should have the option of playing Rhino Prime as a tank.  It takes an outright lie to yourself to ever say that Rhino is not meant to be a tank, as it's clearly obvious based on all his lore and original abilities.  His intended role has ALWAYS been the tank... along with Frost, who is more of a stationary tank by design.

 

And Rhino was an amazing tank back when iron skin's third iteration was first released, because that was before the major buff to enemy weapon damage.  That amount of health lasted longer than a duration-based iron skin typically would.  But that's not the case anymore... iron skin has fallen behind for high-level content, so the primed version is the only way for Rhino Prime to resume his role as a tank.

 

I find it quite insulting that Rhino Prime's role has been reduced to that of a roar-stomp bot with no viable tanking abilities to speak of.

[Thaumatos]

The fact that iron skin is even weaker than Mag's ability in the void... means that it has fallen well behind where it should be.

 

Anyway, I don't ever ask for nerfs.  Let Mirage keep her shadow invulnerability, just give Rhino a similar power that works in the light.  And bring back snow globe invulnerability... the bombards already turn the inside of that globe into a death trap, so it might as well last the full duration.

 

Blocking only works when you're in melee-only mode.  Rhino is not a melee frame, that's Valkyr.

 

Rhino isn't a melee frame?  The DE-described, "heaviest frame in the game" isn't a melee frame?  The frame that has an AoE immobilize, a self-buff for defense, an AoE buff for offense, and a melee-range rush+knockdown attack isn't a melee frame?

 

...

 

What is with you people?  Is Valkyr the only melee frame because she has claws as her ultimate?

[Holeypaladin]

Ash is a melee frame, sort of.  Bladestorm is obviously melee-based.  Excalibur is clearly a melee frame by his very name.

 

Heavy means tank.  I posted a picture of a tank earlier, if you didn't see it.  It's a heavily armored vehicle with a big gun on a turret, meant for long ranged blowing things up.

 

Actually if you look at the wrecking rhino pack, his favored weapons are furax, boar, and lex.  Long range heavy pistol, short range autoshotgun, and gauntlet weapon.

 

So he's essentially meant to autoshotgun things in the face at close range, rather than melee them.  Rhino prime's favored weapon is the boltor prime, which is a short-medium range automatic projectile rifle.

 

So yeah... Rhino isn't intended as a melee frame, but as a heavy tank.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin