Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Thaumatos]

Ash is a melee frame, sort of.  Bladestorm is obviously melee-based.  Excalibur is clearly a melee frame by his very name.

 

Heavy means tank.  I posted a picture of a tank earlier, if you didn't see it.  It's a heavily armored vehicle with a big gun on a turret, meant for long ranged blowing things up.

 

Actually if you look at the wrecking rhino pack, his favored weapons are furax, boar, and lex.  Long range heavy pistol, short range autoshotgun, and gauntlet weapon.

 

So he's essentially meant to autoshotgun things in the face at close range, rather than melee them.  Rhino prime's favored weapon is the boltor prime, which is a short-medium range automatic projectile rifle.

 

So yeah... Rhino isn't intended as a melee frame, but as a heavy tank.

So yeah...I guess that means every last melee character that was ever called a "tank" in an RPG ever wasn't really a melee character.  They were referring to the massive gun they all held.

 

And I have to love your logic with "favored" weapons.  So he favors the shortest, closest, damn-near grappling weapon in the game...but he's not supposed to use it...  What?

 

Come on now.  Stop.  You look obnoxious.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thaumatos

[.Re-light.]

So long as iron skin is the absolute weakest damage mitigation power in the game... my point is already proven.  It needs a rework, or a buff, or just a return to iteration 2.  Rhino of all frames should not have the weakest damage mitigation power.

 

Face tanking?? 11 pages about face tanking? Do you see what is the direction this game is going? What is your point? What has been proven? If you happen to be left out of energy, you still got 1 of top 5 toughest frames in the game. Face tanking end game content? As in 100+ levels? Well, you got Valk, go on, kill / scratch them 1 enemy at the time.

 

    I just can't tell if you are just trolling. This reminds me too much about topic about key sharing where Op was whining that people didn't let him in on key sharing runs without a key. "But we are all Tenno, why don't they share, sharing is caring..." All the while talking how he himself find key farming too boring, or how he is not lucky getting keys.." The topic went on for pages too, logic didn't matter.

 

 Are you trolling?

 

[Azawarau]

Let me ask you a question

 

Whats the highest level enemy youve faced using iron skin and face tanking with rhino?

[Thaumatos]

Face tanking?? 11 pages about face tanking? Do you see what is the direction this game is going? What is your point? What has been proven? If you happen to be left out of energy, you still got 1 of top 5 toughest frames in the game. Face tanking end game content? As in 100+ levels? Well, you got Valk, go on, kill / scratch them 1 enemy at the time.

 

    I just can't tell if you are just trolling. This reminds me too much about topic about key sharing where Op was whining that people didn't let him in on key sharing runs without a key. "But we are all Tenno, why don't they share, sharing is caring..." All the while talking how he himself find key farming too boring, or how he is not lucky getting keys.." The topic went on for pages too, logic didn't matter.

 

 Are you trolling?

 

You know I never thought of that.

 

He might be trolling.

 

He did make this whole thing about "face tanking" but then proceeds to call Rhino a non-melee frame.  Hmm...

[geninrising]

Iron skin was designed for high level content... a year and a half ago.

 

The definition of high level content has changed a lot since then.

 

At the time, iron skin, overheat, snow globe, and blessing were the only damage mitigation skills in the game.  Overheat had a base 40% reduction and capped out at 52%, 

Okay so officially I cannot even pay attention to your words any longer. Overheats DR was 91% at cap with power strength lol. 

[SIDESTRE4M]

So long as iron skin is the absolute weakest damage mitigation power in the game... my point is already proven.  It needs a rework, or a buff, or just a return to iteration 2.  Rhino of all frames should not have the weakest damage mitigation power.

 

Except, it's not, because it's not a mitigation ability. It grants you a second shield that can't be bypassed and makes you invulnerable to all cc. That's not weak at all. Just saying.

[geninrising]

Let me ask you a question

 

Whats the highest level enemy youve faced using iron skin and face tanking with rhino?

Well with current Rhino facetanking extreme is approx lvl 25-28 no further. Now skilled tanking with an all around build is approximately 4-5 seconds at approx lvl 35-38, but that requires you to bob and weave, no face tanking allowed.

Edited January 14, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

I've said many times that the high level content deals a crapload more damage now than it did back when iron skin was revamped, but it falls on stone deaf ears, it seems.  Almost every sort of damage reduction or shield power has had some sort of scaling implemented into it in order to survive higher level content... such as the brief invulnerability of snow globe, and percentage-based reductions rather than artificial HP, or percentage-based shield reinforcement from Mag's new augment.  Every damage reduction power has been modified in some way within the past six months or so... except Iron Skin.

So you would prefer Rhino's IS get shoehorned into something along the same lines as theirs? Keep in mind that Rhino's IS is EHP and therefore is better than simple DR as it allows him to re apply all that EHP again before his HP even gets touched. In the right hands Rhino is far more dangerous to high level enemies than any other individual you named as well as just out tanking any shots that happen to hit him. I would love to see a mirage think she could go toe to toe with a Bombard and find out exactly how wrong she is. The same goes for a mesa for that matter.

 

Rhino has a fantastic kit atm as long as you do not build him in an asinine way. Get better with an all around kit and you will see exactly how much more useful and dangerous he is. Trust me as long as you use IS as your default always on button you will never truly understand what a beast he is.

Edited January 14, 2015 by geninrising

[Azawarau]

Well with current Rhino facetanking extreme is approx lvl 25-28 no further. Now skilled tanking with an all around build is approximately 4-5 seconds at approx lvl 35-38, but that requires you to bob and weave, no face tanking allowed.

I was actually asking MR facetnk over there

 

Are you taking into consideration Multipl casts or power STR?

 

I was just in a nightmare corpus alert and was face tanking lvl 37 corpus without issues

 

Every 5-6 groups of enemies id have to reload Iron skin but for 50 energy that wasnt really a worry

 

Especially with rage on. Need to rework the current build for QT as well somehow

 

So you would prefer Rhino's IS get shoehorned into something along the same lines as theirs? Keep in mind that Rhino's IS is EHP and therefore is better than simple DR as it allows him to re apply all that EHP again before his HP even gets touched. In the right hands Rhino is far more dangerous to high level enemies than any other individual you named as well as just out tanking any shots that happen to hit him. I would love to see a mirage think she could go toe to toe with a Bombard and find out exactly how wrong she is. The same goes for a mesa for that matter.

 

Rhino has a fantastic kit atm as long as you do not build him in an asinine way. Get better with an all around kit and you will see exactly how much more useful and dangerous he is. Trust me as long as you use IS as your default always on button you will never truly understand what a beast he is.

I want to agree here but between Life strike and armor saryn is darn hard to kill

 

Her miasma CC really keeps her going strong

 

Though to be fair i havnt given melee rhino a fair shot in the tanking department

 

I tried once with trinity and was sad at how much better she could tank than valkyr...

[Azawarau]

You know I never thought of that.

 

He might be trolling.

 

He did make this whole thing about "face tanking" but then proceeds to call Rhino a non-melee frame.  Hmm...

Hes been trolling for a while

 

Hell get bored eventually or the threadll be locked and hell stay quiet for a while

                                                       ^I made a word

[SIDESTRE4M]

Anyone who says iron skin is functional as a damage reduction power to current content is lying.

 

Because it is the absolute worst damage reduction power in the game.

 

It's as simple as that.  Lie all you want, it's still not functional for high level content.

 

Maybe because it doesn't reduce damage. It just create a godmode aura, that depletes.

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Azawarau]

Maybe because it doesn't reduce damage. It just create a godmode aura, that depletes.

I think OP doesnt understand how it works honestly

 

Valkyr has an EHP of.... was it 6 or 8k? Im thinking 8....Without warcry

 

Rhino has an EHP of .. 5 or 6k? I just remathed all of this a day ago and cant remember...

 

My point is hes not far off. OP seems to think that Armor scales directly with level. Idk how to explain that because it kinda does but not the way he seems to think it does

 

Now i do think his iron skin needs a buff because of functionality

 

It doesnt synergize as well with rage and QT as warcry does so Valkyr has an edge on staying alive

 

Even saryn with her lower EHP can put rhino to the test. Frost kinda can too but you have to be very um.... strange with that build

 

Id like to see Iron skin bumped up a bit either directly (As bad an idea as that is) or by making iron skin affected by certain mods

 

Not sure of an effective HP number yet

 

The other thing is without iron skin rhino is softer than saryn and frost (With Helm) so he could stand a bit more armor as well

Edited January 14, 2015 by Azawarau

[Holeypaladin]

Nah, it's everyone who says "Iron skin should suck" that's really trolling.  Why should it be the absolute worst damage reduction power in the game?  Simply because it's the oldest?  Oldest = worst now?  That's stupid logic.

 

And it's stupid to say it's not a damage reduction power.... anything that reduces the damage you take is a damage reduction power.  Iron skin reduces the damage you take by 1200.  Which is lower than every other damage reduction power in the game at high levels.

 

Why does everyone refuse to see what's right in front of them?  Why do people want iron skin to suck so much compared to every other damage reduction power in the game?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with balancing out the tank powers in the game and bringing Rhino back to the top.  It's where he was always intended to be.

[Holeypaladin]

Armor doesn't scale with level, I was pointing out the actual damage reduction rates of armor.  They're pretty low compared to the existing damage reduction powers that don't suck.

 

Multiple casts of a weak power just make it end up using way more energy than it should.  I've done the whole multiple cast thing, yep.  Burns through energy quickly, since you have to refresh it every couple seconds in T4 missions.

 

And then I played those same levels as Mirage and only had to refresh eclipse once in a blue moon (get it, eclipse, blue moon?).  And that's what let me know that iron skin is just pathetically weak in comparison with similar powers.  Look at what it does to her shields alone.  Assuming she has a simple redirection mod for base 592 shields, before she even starts taking damage, she has an EHP of 11840.  This is because she is only taking 5% as much damage as she normally would, multiplying her EHP by 20.  That's right, 20 times 592 to give her 11840 shields and 11840 health, essentially 100% of the time since it lasts so dang long and most maps have enough shadow that she can stay in it at all times.

 

Subtract the 5000 or so EHP that Rhino might have with a good iron skin up, and Mirage has him beat by roughly 19,000 EHP with eclipse.  For half the energy cost of Iron Skin.

 

Removing the power scaling on eclipse's damage reduction would lower her EHP multiplier to 4 instead of 20... but that's still a more powerful skill than iron skin, since it boosts the EHP of her shields alone to about 2400... a boost of around 1800 (1776 to be exact... Mirage is patriotic like that).  So in order for iron skin to compete with this nerfed version of eclipse, it would also need to be improved.  A return to iteration 2 iron skin would be making it provide 85% damage reduction.  Weaker than the current eclipse, but if power scaling is removed from damage reduction powers since it makes them OP, it would go back to being the best.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[SIDESTRE4M]

Maybe because people don't think Iron Skin sucks. Well, except you and a few others.

 

And that may be, because they don't share your premise how to play Rhino or in general.

 

Rhino has that noob-image because it allows people to play absolutely carefree for most of the starmap. Early Rhino-users don't learn to use cover because it's simply not needed. Dodging Scorpions, knockdowns, *@##$slaps? Pffff... I'm da mighty Rhino.

 

Sometimes I use Rhino for easy bossruns... "easy" bossruns. As long as don't stand like a tree before them and wait until my Iron Skin gets shot down it's absolutely impossible to snare me.

 

And the funny part is, it seems you want to do exactly that. Stand like a statue in the room like Chuck Norris and wave your Boltor Prime arround.

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Holeypaladin]

It's not that I want Rhino to be invulnerable... I just want him to be the best tank like his premise states him as.

 

When Mirage has nearly 60k EHP and Rhino is still around 6k, it's clear he's not anywhere near the best tank.

 

This is why my proposed balanced changes are necessary.  They don't make Rhino invincible... they just make iron skin as good as any other damage reduction power.

 

It should never have been allowed to get so weak to begin with.  1200 EHP for 50 energy, or 20000 EHP for 25 energy... the clear winner is an existing power that belongs to Mirage, not Rhino.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[SIDESTRE4M]

Please stop with Mirage. Unless she gets a sunblocker augment it's just not the same. When I used that ability I often entered places where I absolutely couldn't tell why it counts as dark or bright. In Void it seems to be the brightest place ever so even if you can seek cover with finding dark spots, it's still situative and has a higher skill cap to use.

 

And you can't just add some points together when her ability is percentage based. It just doesn't work. It depends on who shoots at her. Level 100 Heavy Gunner or what is your reference?

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Holeypaladin]

If you can't look at mirage and tell her whether she's in light mode or dark mode... it's  your fail.  It's pretty obvious as the visuals change drastically between sunlight and shadow.  If you can't use the terrain to your advantage... it's pretty epic fail, since that's what Mirage is all about.

 

Relevant content as far as I'm concerned is T4 missions up to the first rotation C or so.  By that point, everything is about level 45-50, and can blow through iron skin in one shot, while mirage can just stand in the shadows getting knocked down by bombards to the face and getting back up and laughing before killing them.  It's particularly funny that one time in a blue moon where they actually deplete her shields from like 5 bombard hits in a row just to have her sentinel refresh them back to full.

 

If Mirage were the glass cannon people seem to think she is... she'd still be one of the most powerful frames in the game.  As it stands, she's both the most powerful offensively and the most indestructible next to valkyr, depending how you use her.

[sanj66]

Terrify cant hit every enemy in an AOE unless you mod for strength.

Terrify also makes enemies harder to kill because they run away and dont stop running until they reach the edge of a map.

Terrify also has a cooldown.

Terrify also cannot be recast to hit more targets.

 

Shadows outright ignore threats at times.

Enemies outright ignore shadows at times.

Shadows also block teammates.

Shadows also block gunfire.

Shadows also require nearly 7 seconds to fully cast.

Shadows also do not aggressively provide CC to protect teammates or objectives.

 

Stomp is not expensive when you build for efficiency.

Stomp hits every enemy in an aoe, not just a few.

Stomp lasts 8 seconds which is more than enough time to kill heavy enemies that are stunned before they fall to the floor.

If you cannot kill a heavy enemy in 8 seconds of stun you are modding your guns or melee improperly.

Especially if Roar happens to be activated during the Stomp.

contradictions again, building for efficiency kills your duration, the same thing that applies to terrify applies to stomp, it has an innate cd, power in use, same as terrify, it cannot be recasted to hit  more targets, on hte other hand, terrify lessens your burden to kill, damage boost plus enemies running away=less to kill, if x amount runs away you wont have to kill x+y, where as with stomp x amount suspended, then y spawns you need to kill x+y, terrify is also not an ult yet comparable to one. shadows have their uses, just as you all say stomp has its uses so does that. so yes nekros does cc and on top of that he has his desecrate, he might not be outright tank and bulky as rhino but he is an all round better frame scaling, soul punch drops off at higher levels and its quite easy to mod nekros either way and yet have great yields off these 3 skills. you cant say that for rhino.

[sanj66]

Terrify has a target limit and shorter range

 

It also makes enemies run away annoyingly so theyre harder to hit

 

How is 8 seconds for 25 energy not reliable exactly? Keep in mind this is 8 seconds plus the standing animation

 

Youre not even addressing the fact that efficiency exists.

 

Youve been quite the troll this thread you know

yes but you all arent addressing the fact that if you build for efficiency you kill both his roar and charge, skills which you all boast you should build for, atleast roar, you all forget rhino is not one of those lucky frames you can make a corrupted build and have all his powers scale almost perfectly like others.

[SIDESTRE4M]

If you can't look at mirage and tell her whether she's in light mode or dark mode... it's  your fail.  It's pretty obvious as the visuals change drastically between sunlight and shadow.  If you can't use the terrain to your advantage... it's pretty epic fail, since that's what Mirage is all about.

 

Relevant content as far as I'm concerned is T4 missions up to the first rotation C or so.  By that point, everything is about level 45-50, and can blow through iron skin in one shot, while mirage can just stand in the shadows getting knocked down by bombards to the face and getting back up and laughing before killing them.  It's particularly funny that one time in a blue moon where they actually deplete her shields from like 5 bombard hits in a row just to have her sentinel refresh them back to full.

 

If Mirage were the glass cannon people seem to think she is... she'd still be one of the most powerful frames in the game.  As it stands, she's both the most powerful offensively and the most indestructible next to valkyr, depending how you use her.

 

You know... maybe it's too late when you see you're glowing like a lightbulb and next to you is a nasty high level heavy gunner.

 

It's just visual feedback so you know what's happening. And it just gives you feedback when you enter it, not where you should head.

 

And I'm still waiting for how you calculated those numbers.

Edited January 14, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[sanj66]

Yeah

 

Throw in Primed continuity and you get your base time back

 

 

Giving up already?

 

Just hit up a corpus survival and grineer nightmare capture without breaking a sweat on rhino

 

Wen to Kiste twice and had no issue face tanking

you cant factor in primed continuity, not everyone got it, and we never know if it will ever show back up, just like arcane helmets.

[Holeypaladin]

How I calculated the numbers for Mirage?  Simply.  Shields + health multiplied by 1-.95

 

Her shields and health with redirection and vitality are both 592... which looks like a glass cannon stat, until you realize that with a 95% damage reduction, they protect her as if they were 20 times 592... or 11840 each.  Her EHP is 23680 with eclipse up in shadow.

[Thaumatos]

It's not that I want Rhino to be invulnerable... I just want him to be the best tank like his premise states him as.

I already told you.  0 Stamina cost while blocking would fix Iron Skin (or how about you let him block period).  Limited invulnerability.  He's impenetrable from the front angle but only with the melee weapon up.  Build him for blocking, soaking damage, and turning enemies away from allies.  Like 99.99% of all tanks ever designed in RPGs.

 

Make Iron Skin a soft taunt where he has heightened threat to nearby enemies, and then make Roar a forced taunt.

 

Boom, he's the tank again.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Holeypaladin]

Spehse mehreens don't block.

 

Rhino is a spehse mehreen.

 

Warframe is a shooter, not an RPG.  Different tank premise.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin