Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Bobtm]

A lot of frames have "win" buttons.  All the "4 to win" frames have a win button (it's number 4, right there).  Rhino does not currently have a win button, but a "make me considerably more resilient to enemy damage" button would be nice.  It fits his theme.

 

A lot of people want to play tanky frames.  They get criticized because they like dying, or maybe because they like to play solo-viable frames and avoid having to work in a team of strangers if they don't want to.  Rhino used to be THE solo frame, but he's not so much anymore.

 

One of the fundamental issues of the game is that it's difficult to find teams to clear all the nodes on the star chart, so solo play is pretty much required just to open up the maps.  That's probably the main reason Rhino is popular at low levels.

 

And as a tradeoff for being the supposed tank... Rhino doesn't have any "kill the whole room" powers like a lot of other frames have.  I think that's a fair exchange already.

 

I... you really need to work on understanding what I'm saying here.  This constant misunderstanding is making this far more difficult than it needs to be.  I'll start with the last noted part;  "Rhino not having kill powers"  I specifically said that our killing potential, especially in high level content, is pretty much always locked directly into our guns.  This applies to all frames aside maybe three of them.  There's no fair exchange about it at all, there's no exchange there at all.

 

The issue is simply how DR works out differently than other types of abilities in a skill driven game like Warframe versus how things work in other games.  In games like this the player is expected to know and utilize proper positioning and dodging to mitigate damage for the most part.  Currently if you do that while playing as Rhino you're more than strong enough to survive fine in high level play.  Of course this doesn't directly speak to "tanking" which is why some folks are sticking around and trying to come up with potential reworks to IS to promote that playstyle.

 

Of course, like I said, DR isn't so easy as everything else.  It's literally tied directly to our survivability versus incoming attacks.  If said DR is all encompassing then this means it's a massive raw increase to a frame's inability to die.  If you increase this DR value to a level where "facetanking" is a thing then any player who's got enough mind to not stand still like a meathead will never die.

 

This is why such a thing falls apart, it creates a situation where the ability cannot exist in a balanced state.

 

To speak to the first part you mentioned... that's really not something to try and use as a supporting arguement.  I can pretty much assure you that those of us opposed to giving Rhino super high flat DR without drawbacks are the exact same players who are totally opposed to the existence of "press 4 to win" as an existent playstyle(or rather a lack of playstyle).  Everyone with a bit of foresight already knows the days of "press 4 to win" are numbered.  It's only a matter of time before this trend finally dies the death it so rightfully deserves.  And since it's a door hero, there's not gonna be anyone coming to its rescue.

 

Lastly I'll touch on why I personally feel Rhino is as popular as he is.  I of course respect that folks like Rhino, no denying that, but he is an incredibly simple frame.  It doesn't take literally any thought at all to play Rhino well during starchart missions, his kit speaks to a lack of creativity in playstyle in a big way.  A lot of players just love taking the path of least resistance.  This of course doesn't mean one cannot play Rhino in a creative or skilled way, it's just that he generally doesn't warrant it.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Bobtm

[Holeypaladin]

Not every warframe should be as complex and difficult to learn as Limbo.  But every warframe should be equally viable at endgame levels... they're not like weapons that have an obvious tier system of weak to strong.

 

If they want to have a tier system of weak to strong warframes, they should really say so, and announce outright that they don't want people to be using Rhino at high levels.  But as it currently stands, the general goal is to make every warframe viable.  And Rhino is simply mediocre, which means there is always a more preferable choice for any given game match over Rhino.  When there's someone more preferable to tanking damage than the tank frame... well, there's a serious problem with the tank frame.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Bobtm]

Not every warframe should be as complex and difficult to learn as Limbo.  But every warframe should be equally viable at endgame levels... they're not like weapons that have an obvious tier system of weak to strong.

 

If they want to have a tier system of weak to strong warframes, they should really say so, and announce outright that they don't want people to be using Rhino at high levels.  But as it currently stands, the general goal is to make every warframe viable.  And Rhino is simply mediocre, which means there is always a more preferable choice for any given game match over Rhino.  When there's someone more preferable to tanking damage than the tank frame... well, there's a serious problem with the tank frame.

 

I have never said anything of the sort!

 

Seriously, I'm not sure how much more directly I can spell this out for you.  I'll even quote myself to directly speak to this very issue;

 

  In games like this the player is expected to know and utilize proper positioning and dodging to mitigate damage for the most part.  Currently if you do that while playing as Rhino you're more than strong enough to survive fine in high level play.

 

Playing Rhino well means he works fine in endgame, his kit is not and hasn't ever been bad for endgame.  I've never once said anything of the sort and never will say anything of the sort.  I'm cool with Rhino being easy as well, I think that's a good thing and it's nice that folks who want such a frame have fairly early access to it.  I do like using harder to use frames, but I don't think every frame should be complex.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Bobtm

[lZerul]

Rhino Stomp is nowhere near close to the level of power of "win" button of other frames. It does less damage then almost all of them, much less CC then some others, and it can't be recast while enemies are still in stasis.

 

The only maps it clears are low level ones, which are hardly relevent as:

1) All AoE damage abilties on basically any frame clear maps at low levels.

2) this is about buffing Rhino's lategame durability.

 

Do I think Rhino should be able to "facetank" end-game content?

 

No, but I do believe he should be able to absorb more damage then any other frame in the same situation (barring Valkyr's 4).

 

As it stands, that isn't the case at all.

Edited January 18, 2015 by lZerul

[Renegade343]

Rhino Stomp is nowhere near close to the level of power of "win" button of other frames. It does less damage then almost all of them, much less CC then some others, and it can't be recast while enemies are still in stasis.

But you can simply mod for range with that skill with just Stretch (gives you 36.25m radius at max rank), and then Power Strength with Transient Fortitude + Intensify (+85% Power Strength), for killing off any cannon fodder (since it deals two instances of Blast Damage), and lifting up the surviving enemies for easy pickings. 

 

While it cannot be spammed as much, it can still be classified as 'Press 4 to win', because with one button press, you basically negated the whole room's ability to attack back to you and your team members for around 10 seconds (until new enemies come in), along with a very nice sum of damage as well (two instances of 1,480 Blast Damage [2,960 Blast Damage] is nothing to scoff at). 

[lZerul]

Yet this is still inferior to other more effecient and spammable "win" buttons. Cannon fodder is just that, cannon fodder. If you want to measure a win button based of its ability to annihilate non-end game enemies, then there are still far better tools for that.

 

It isn't a weak ability by any means, but calling it a win button is a gross exagerration. If you want a real "win" button look at Nova's 4 as a perfect example,  powerful CC, huge damage augment for allies, and a powerful long range explosion that does immense damage.

 

Rhino's 4 is more an "oh Sh!t!!" button for some hard CC for 10 seconds while you pick an ally off the ground, its damage is laughable at end game content. Nyx's 3 does a better job at that, and probably ends up causing more damage as well.

Edited January 18, 2015 by lZerul

[Renegade343]

Yet this is still inferior to other more effecient and spammable "win" buttons. Cannon fodder is just that, cannon fodder. If you want to measure a win button based of its ability to annihilate non-end game enemies, then there are still far better tools for that.

 

It isn't a weak ability by any means, but calling it a win button is a gross exagerration. If you want a real "win" button look at Nova's 4 as a perfect example,  powerful CC, huge damage augment for allies, and a powerful long range explosion that does immense damage.

 

Rhino's 4 is more an "oh Sh!t!!" button for some hard CC for 10 seconds while you pick an ally off the ground, its damage is laughable at end game content.

I did acknowledge that while it is not as solid as most 'Press 4 to win' abilities, it does fulfil the bare requirements of a 'Press 4 to win' button. Also very much perfect CC that is not affected by Duration altering mods whatsoever (so Fleeting Expertise would not incur any negative effects on Rhino Stomp, in which Molecular Prime is affected by that), rather alright damage (and can be pushed up higher if need be without much of a negative effect again), and long range for locking down a whole group of enemies for harvesting, using your points for Nova's Molecular Prime. 

 

In short, there are tiers of 'Press 4 to win' abilities: The top tier ones (Molecular Prime, Miasma, Blessing etc.), the 'just passed' ones (Rhino Stomp, Radial Javelin [although it is between top tier and 'just passed']), and the not 'Press 4 to win' abilities (Crush, Overload etc.), not just one 'Press 4 to win' ability tier, then the rest. That is the reason I stated that Rhino Stomp can be a 'Press 4 to win' ability. 

[lZerul]

So by your definition, Rhino's 4 is passable, so why on earth should his durability option be inferior to other frames?

 

If we consider his powers:

 

Rhino Charge is a fairly weak mobility skill with some questionable CC.

 

Iron Skin is one of the weakest defensive augements in late-game, with the HP shield being shredded in seconds, but its power in early/mid level areas is unquestioned.

 

Roar is solid, but outclassed by several other utility buffs, especially in a direct comparison to the augmented Eclipse.

 

Rhino Stomp is a passable ultimate skill that does good damage at low/mid level areas and has solid CC.

 

So tell me, in comparison to frame who are better off in the end-game of Warframe, what ability of Rhino's is so amazing that it justifies blocking improvement to his lackluster defensive abiity?

[geninrising]

If you want to get rid of "kill the whole room" buttons...

 

You'd have to nerf more than half the frames in the game.  Because most of them have it.  Radial javelin?  Nerf, it kills the whole room.  Overload?  The damage is crap but it still kills the whole room, so nerf.  M-prime?  Definitely nerf that, chain reaciton kills the whole room.

 

Trying to get rid of win buttons is a losing battle, which you have already lost.  Most frames have one.  And they aren't going anywhere.  Rhino has none... which makes him weaker in comparison.

 

And if you're worried about frames scaling infinitely... you should attack Loki instead of Rhino.

I am perfectly fine with a  change to the energy system that would require PROPER use of said abilities rather than nerfing their damages into the ground.

 

In fact with a  change to the energy system I'm all for abilities getting a complete face lift all the way around to make them even more OP. The problem comes when abilities are constantly on hand for EVERY occasion and are unlimited in said use. Additionally any power that can be exploited for a different use than intended are a problem, hence why completely disagree with a  Rhino having a huge aggro distance ability.

 

Highly exploitable..check, Highly spammable(using Iron Shrapnel)check= instant opposition. Even if they placed the aggro mechanic on his Roar instead same scenario as above, exploitable...check, spammable...check=instant opposition

 

Infinitely scaling IS with damage absorption and aggro mechanic....double check=instant opposition.

 

I HATE WIN OR EASY MODE BUTTONS AND THEY ARE UNHEALTHY FOR THE GAME.

[lZerul]

I am perfectly fine with a  change to the energy system that would require PROPER use of said abilities rather than nerfing their damages into the ground.

 

In fact with a  change to the energy system I'm all for abilities getting a complete face lift all the way around to make them even more OP. The problem comes when abilities are constantly on hand for EVERY occasion and are unlimited in said use. Additionally any power that can be exploited for a different use than intended are a problem, hence why completely disagree with a  Rhino having a huge aggro distance ability.

 

Highly exploitable..check, Highly spammable(using Iron Shrapnel)check= instant opposition. Even if they placed the aggro mechanic on his Roar instead same scenario as above, exploitable...check, spammable...check=instant opposition

 

Infinitely scaling IS with damage absorption and aggro mechanic....double check=instant opposition.

 

I HATE WIN OR EASY MODE BUTTONS AND THEY ARE UNHEALTHY FOR THE GAME.

 

I can only assume you must hate Loki then, considering almost everything good about it scales infinetly, and it doesn't even require power strength at all.

[Renegade343]

So by your definition, Rhino's 4 is passable, so why on earth should his durability option be inferior to other frames?

 

If we consider his powers:

 

Rhino Charge is a fairly weak mobility skill with some questionable CC.

Rhino Charge is like the Impact version (and slight upgrade) of Slash Dash, and you knock down enemies who are within 2m of you at max Rhino Charge. You also gain immunity to health damage while using it, so for Rhino, this is alright (for now). 

 

Iron Skin is one of the weakest defensive augements in late-game, with the HP shield being shredded in seconds, but its power in early/mid level areas is unquestioned.

Well, not really going to argue that, since I agree to some extent (just have him absorb enemy bullets for a very small bit, then take the damage absorbed as Iron Skin Health, then add it to his base Iron Skin Health). 

 

Roar is solid, but outclassed by several other utility buffs, especially in a direct comparison to the augmented Eclipse.

You kind of need to be very near to Mirage to gain that effect (and sometimes right on her too). While it is true that in theory, the augmented Eclipse would be better than Roar, in practice, that bonus would be rather difficult to use effectively, while Roar just simply allows you to press one button, and all allies within range get the buff (and a pretty nice range of 25m at max rank, so there is less need and worry to get quite close to Mirage to gain the Eclipse effect). 

 

And Roar does increase the damage output from all damage sources (not Power Strength though), so not just one player (like Mesa). 

 

In short, while Rhino does need a small tune-up here and there, for the most part, his abilities are quite solid in itself. 

[geninrising]

Rhino's 4 is more an "oh Sh!t!!" button for some hard CC for 10 seconds while you pick an ally off the ground, its damage is laughable at end game content. Nyx's 3 does a better job at that, and probably ends up causing more damage as well.

Rhino's 4 is a PERFECT example of what #4's should be, is without question balanced, fair, and NOT SPAMMABLE which makes it ineligible to be even discussed in the p42w class with the others. Moderate damage followed by moderate cc moderated further by the duration enemies are hoisted in the air and helpless.

Hydroid's #4 is a close second and almost a draw with Rhino. Fair damage, moderate cc,NOT SPAMMABLE.

 

See a trend here?

 

Frost's #4 is in a close 3rd but he is a separate press 3 category

 

With top tier being

1. Excal (equally effective versus all factions)

2. Saryn (effective versus all factions to varying degrees.)

3. Loki (effective versus 2 of 3 factions and void, utterly annihilating their ability to fight back)

4. Mag (mag is a different creature all together and rated below the others for this reason, her p#2w is #2 followed by 4 vs corpus)

5. Mesa (effective but requires good positioning and is vulnerable during her stationary channeled ult)

6. Nova (effective versus all factions as a BUFF and DEBUFF only)

7. Nyx (invlunerable and massive damage offset by increased energy costs)

8. Ash (only 17 targets but can be amplified via combo counter)

 

Volt is FAAAAAAAR down the list due to his stationary vulnerable state and ability to really only get good damage once out of each cast per area since he shorts out all electrical equipment.

Ember is horrible  for this due to her ult picking 3 targets at a time to hit for mediocre damage at best.

 

Once again NO ONE should have a win button they can access and abuse constantly and we have many frames that do just that.

[Dogoframe]

 

 

So what you have is a frame with a worthless first power (rhino charge sucks), weak second power (iron skin so much weaker than the above mentioned skills), mediocre third power (weaker than m-prime and sonar for group buffs, weaker than eclipse for solo buffs), and mediocre fourth power (low damage, fairly low range, worse at CC than both disarm and m-prime).

 

 

 

Have to comment on this before I read the rest of the thread (apologies if it has been addressed).

 

Rhino Charge is mobility + invincibility frames, hardly worthless. Iron Skin negates ALL CC and lets you recharge Shields with impunity under fire, hardly weak. Roar also makes Warframe abilities stronger and doesnt need accuracy as Sonar does. Now Rhino Stomp? Mediocre? Primed mobs still shoot you (albeit slowly) and disarmed mobs give you the bad cop treatment (and anyone who plays Loki or with Loki will tell you that after some levels everyone should fear the Kung Fu MOAs). With Rhino Stomp they are completely useless for its duration. You can easily reposition yourself and send a whole group of baddies to hell with a calmly aimed Paris Prime/Dread arrow or a shot-from-safe-distance Ogris rocket.

 

I am not arguing against your OP per se, but that is hyperbole, and doesnt help your case.

 

And I could provide video proof of myself facetanking lvl 60 mobs with my main Loki. Anyone can do it actually, you just need decent positioning and a maxed Reflex Guard. Of course I cant deal damage or run or forget about the mobs completely while doing it, but ya know, trade offs...

[geninrising]

I can only assume you must hate Loki then, considering almost everything good about it scales infinetly, and it doesn't even require power strength at all.

I hate all win buttons due to players being able to abuse the energy loophole. Without people having constant access to plenty of energy to cast constantly, ultimates were great as an oh sh|t button. Now they are ruining the game and causing a higher and higher skill discrepancy from one player to the next.

 

With the additional enemies that DE has introduced to combat spamming it has made it even harder on new people than it was before.

If the trend continues DE will get a horrible reputation for not balancing it's game properly all thanks to the people that abuse this loophole.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[Renegade343]

Rhino's 4 is a PERFECT example of what #4's should be, is without question balanced, fair, and NOT SPAMMABLE which makes it ineligible to be even discussed in the p42w class with the others. Moderate damage followed by moderate cc moderated further by the duration enemies are hoisted in the air and helpless.

Hydroid's #4 is a close second and almost a draw with Rhino. Fair damage, moderate cc,NOT SPAMMABLE.

 

See a trend here?

 

Frost's #4 is in a close 3rd but he is a separate press 3 category

 

With top tier being

1. Excal (equally effective versus all factions)

2. Saryn (effective versus all factions to varying degrees.)

3. Loki (effective versus 2 of 3 factions and void, utterly annihilating their ability to fight back)

4. Mag (mag is a different creature all together and rated below the others for this reason, her p#2w is #2 followed by 4 vs corpus)

5. Mesa (effective but requires good positioning and is vulnerable during her stationary channeled ult)

6. Nova (effective versus all factions as a BUFF and DEBUFF only)

7. Nyx (invlunerable and massive damage offset by increased energy costs)

8. Ash (only 17 targets but can be amplified via combo counter)

 

Volt is FAAAAAAAR down the list due to his stationary vulnerable state and ability to really only get good damage once out of each cast per area since he shorts out all electrical equipment.

Ember is horrible  for this due to her ult picking 3 targets at a time to hit for mediocre damage at best.

 

Once again NO ONE should have a win button they can access and abuse constantly and we have many frames that do just that.

Could I state one (actually, three) things about your list? 

 

Loki should be around #2 or #1, because he is also effective against Infested now, with Mutalist MOAs and Mutalist Ospreys losing their abilities when hit with Radial Disarm (and knocking down the rest of the Infested). 

 

And as for Rhino, he has a rather wide range at max rank, and even wider with just a Stretch, so while it is not that spammable, it is quite powerful in itself. Hydroid's 4 is rather weird at times. 

 

And Mag is not really that much 'Press 4 to win', since she needs to be stationary for the duration of the Crush, and that enemies that walk into the radius when Mag is doing Crush would not be affected, and can shoot at Mag (and then, enemies that have been damaged by Crush can instantly stand up and start shooting at Mag). 

[lZerul]

Rhino Charge is a lot shorter range then Slash Dash, and has a pretty terrible hit-box. If they improved its base range and made the hitbox not suck, I'd call it good then. Not to mention its distance traveled is reliant on power duration, which makes it a near useless skill if the Rhino specs for Power Strength.

 

Iron Skin really just needs to make it so it uses Rhino's armor instead of having its own, then give the Rhino a decent armor buff. Then the Rhino can at least choose to utilize Steel Fiber to imrpove his durability further.

 

As I said, Roar is solid, I don't think its bad. I don't even think it needs to be buffed, but I can't say its so good that we can afford to see Rhino get buffs elsewhere. If Roar has one downside, it is how reliant it is on warframe power modules, much like Ember's 4, it requires Strength, Range, Effeciency and Duration for its potential to be fully realized.

 

But seriously, I just want Iron Skin to get the buffed I proposed. I just want him to be durable in end game like he should be. It has been ages since I have felt like Rhino's durability was anything special.

[geninrising]

Could I state one (actually, three) things about your list? 

 

Loki should be around #2 or #1, because he is also effective against Infested now, with Mutalist MOAs and Mutalist Ospreys losing their abilities when hit with Radial Disarm (and knocking down the rest of the Infested). 

 

And as for Rhino, he has a rather wide range at max rank, and even wider with just a Stretch, so while it is not that spammable, it is quite powerful in itself. Hydroid's 4 is rather weird at times. 

 

And Mag is not really that much 'Press 4 to win', since she needs to be stationary for the duration of the Crush, and that enemies that walk into the radius when Mag is doing Crush would not be affected, and can shoot at Mag (and then, enemies that have been damaged by Crush can instantly stand up and start shooting at Mag). 

The reason loki did not make 2 is because his effectiveness VS infested is completely limited to spitters while Saryn can still damage all but the elusive Toxic ancient. Spitters are more common and therefore Loki loses much of his effectiveness versus infested while Saryn loses just a  little

 

Mag is include where she is due to limitations cited and the fact that she utterly annihilates corpus no matter their level and thus reaches above others on said list her 4 is just for stragglers that survive the 2. She is also above Mesa simply due to the LoS thing.

 

Rhino may have a wide range but again his only button you can press to negate difficulty or kill is not spammable.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[Renegade343]

As I said, Roar is solid, I don't think its bad. I don't even think it needs to be buffed, but I can't say its so good that we can afford to see Rhino get buffs elsewhere. If Roar has one downside, it is how reliant it is on warframe power modules, much like Ember's 4, it requires Strength, Range, Effeciency and Duration for its potential to be fully realized.

You could skip on Range for more Duration (since 25m radius is quite a large one). Efficiency is going to be modded for almost all Warframes, and Strength is optional. 

 

The reason loki did not make 2 is because his effectiveness VS infested is completely limited to spitters while Saryn can still damage all but the elusive Toxic ancient. Spitters are more common and therefore Loki loses much of his effectiveness versus infested whole saryn loses just a  little

Actually, to support your point a bit more, Saryn's Miasma deals Corrosive damage, which Toxic Ancients have no resistance to that. 

 

And did you just contradict your reasoning with the second sentence, as in: 

 

Loki's Radial Disarm is limited to Spitters.

Spitters are more common with the Infested. 

Loki's Radial Disarm is therefore less effective. 

 

Mag is include where she is due to limitations cited and the fact that she utterly annihilates corpus no matter their level and thus reaches above others on said list her 4 is just for stragglers that survive the 2. She is also above Mesa simply due to the LoS thing.

Or keep on pressing 2, I guess. 

[geninrising]

 Actually, to support your point a bit more, Saryn's Miasma deals Corrosive damage, which Toxic Ancients have no resistance to that. 

 

And did you just contradict your reasoning with the second sentence, as in: 

 

Loki's Radial Disarm is limited to Spitters.

Spitters are more common with the Infested. 

Loki's Radial Disarm is therefore less effective. 

 

Or keep on pressing 2, I guess. 

as for 1 meh maybe I'm confused as to which unit is immune but I know periodically I hit 0s and I thought it was Toxics.

 

2. My reasoning for that was that loki only effectively shuts down two enemies whereas Saryn pretty much rapes them all.

Spitters being more common means that while he is effective versus them Saryn has more overall use because her enemy that she struggles against is far less common. ie:spitters are more common therefore Saryn has less trouble dealing damage and being useful whereas loki is only of limited use WHEN those units appear.

 

Sorry for the confusing way I ordered the thought.

 

As for the mag thing #2 only damages enemies when it drains shields and enemies are near each other to receive damage from the discharge. So pressing 2 continuously is not very productive when you already broke their shields.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[Renegade343]

as for 1 meh maybe I'm confused as to which unit is immune but I know periodically I hit )s and I thought it was Toxics.

My reasoning for that was that loki only effectively shuts down two enemies whereas Saryn pretty much rapes them all.

Spitters being more common means that while he is effective versus them Saryn has more overall use because her enemy that she struggles against is far less common. ie:spitters are more common therefore saryn has less trouble dealing damage and being useful whereas loki is only of limited use when those units appear.

EDIT: Wait, if Spitters are more common, then Loki does have some use in Infested missions then (yes, I do understand that overall, he has less use than Saryn, but with Spitters being more common, then Loki could be argued to be a bit more even with Saryn.). 

Edited January 18, 2015 by Renegade343

[Holeypaladin]

No one is asking Rhino to be invincible.

 

We just want to see him be more durable than the non-tank frames.

[geninrising]

You mean Spitters as in Ancients?

 

If so, I see. I thought you were referring to Tar Mutalist MOAs. 

lol spitters is what I call Tar and Mutalist moas. Did I further the confusion some how?

No one is asking Rhino to be invincible.

 

We just want to see him be more durable than the non-tank frames.

Ok so DR on top of current IS is acceptable? that would be more durable without a god mode button under any circumstance.

[Renegade343]

lol spitters is what I call Tar and Mutalist moas. Did I further the confusion some how?

I edited it, since it was a bit of reading problems on my part. 

[geninrising]

EDIT: Wait, if Spitters are more common, then Loki does have some use in Infested missions then (yes, I do understand that overall, he has less use than Saryn, but with Spitters being more common, then Loki could be argued to be a bit more even with Saryn.). 

Nope, because while he lessens the dangers from the spitters, Saryn outright removes them completely=higher tier.

[Renegade343]

Nope, because while he lessens the dangers from the spitters, Saryn outright removes them completely=higher tier.

I did state that it makes him a bit more even with Saryn, not fully equal or overtaking her.