Energy Overhaul - Introducing A New System

[Zarvok]

You have my support.

[lautalocos]

I think you struck gold with this idea, you just don't know it yet.

 

Your Shields are now the energy pool. Enjoy.

 

You can either have shields, or spam your abilities.

Congratulations, we just solved the energy problem.

if we do that, the devs will augment the max shields, and people will stop using powets to get a massive amount of shields

Edited May 3, 2013 by lautalocos

[Story4]

if we do that, the devs will augment the max shields, and people will stop using powets to get a massive amount of shields

 

Not really, you can have the same amount of shields, just tweak every skill's power requirement according to their level. For example a starting Loki with only 75 shield should be able to use decoy for just 10 shield cost or something just as small. When he is level 30 and has 375 shields, if he maxes decoy then decoy will cost 50 energy to use.

 

Pretty simple really.

[Istroleth]

Love the idea, the only problem i see is with Trinity. Not sure if she will be way to weak or way too overpowered with this new system, Mostly because of Energy Vampire.

 

Well of Life i think will be fine with this new system.

 

Link I can see being like Iron Skin but maybe with a higher SD or mSP. She is after all a support frame not a tank like Rhino.

 

Blessing if it has too high of a SD or SPc people might not use it much or if they are too low they might use it over the Well of Life like now.

 

I can see Energy Vampire change too now giving solor power, but maybe being a aura, and not a debuff. It would need either a high SPc or SD to off set the new changes. The problem with this is the range, right now has a debuff the range is fine, but has a aura the range would suck for those who aren't in range. It could stay has a debuff, but just wouldn't feel right if it last for more then a few sec if it gives mSP or SD. Right now i just can't think of this skill being good with this new system and might just need to be replace with a skill. It just feels like no matter way with a Trinity in the group you could go on spamming your skill with this skill, or it just wont get used much because of high SPc or SD

Edited May 3, 2013 by Gaige

[Story4]

@Gaige, maybe Energy vampire could be changed to solar rejuvenation? The ability could either make your solar power regenerate faster, or it could diminish/cancel the need to wait for the solar power to regenerate.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Story4

[Thypari2013]

Love the idea, the only problem i see is with Trinity. Not sure if she will be way to weak or way too overpowered with this new system, Mostly because of Energy Vampire.

 

Well of Life i think will be fine with this new system.

 

Link I can see being like Iron Skin but maybe with a higher SD or mSP. She is after all a support frame not a tank like Rhino.

 

Blessing if it has too high of a SD or SPc people might not use it much or if they are too low they might use it over the Well of Life like now.

 

I can see Energy Vampire change too now giving solor power, but maybe being a aura, and not a debuff. It would need either a high SPc or SD to off set the new changes. The problem with this is the range, right now has a debuff the range is fine, but has a aura the range would suck for those who aren't in range. It could stay has a debuff, but just wouldn't feel right if it last for more then a few sec if it gives mSP or SD. Right now i just can't think of this skill being good with this new system and might just need to be replace with a skill. It just feels like no matter way with a Trinity in the group you could go on spamming your skill with this skill, or it just wont get used much because of high SPc or SD

 

Haven't thought about Trinity at all. And I don't have her xD I will look into her Kit and add it as an example.

From the feedback Energy Vampire gives Energy right now? Also to herself?

 

Changing it to give a higher SR (which will still be 0 when you have SD) and giving the ability a high SD could be just enough. But that is just pure guessing.

 

@Story4: Had the same thought with the Solar-Regen :>

Edited May 3, 2013 by Thypari2013

[Istroleth]

Haven't thought about Trinity at all. And I don't have her xD I will look into her Kit and add it as an example.

From the feedback Energy Vampire gives Energy right now? Also to herself?

 

Changing it to give a higher SR (which will still be 0 when you have SD) and giving the ability a high SD could be just enough. But that is just pure guessing.

 

@Story4: Had the same thought with the Solar-Regen :>

what is does right now is a debuff on a mob, when shot it will give energy back even to her, just have to shot the mob before it dies or energy vampire runs out.

[Feam]

Fantastic innovation. I would like to present my own timetable

 

0s  = Shown a thread that claims to have a new concept for the Energy system.

10s = I was made aware that there are many words and tables and large demonstrations to read. it is late at night and I figure I would just read a little bit.

30s = I realize this is semi-cooldown related and semi-regeneration related system, both of which have already failed in Warframe appearntly, and think this is going to be pretty bad as well.

40s = Hey... that Solar-Downtime thing reminds me of "Terraria" 's cool Mana regeneration system...

60s = Damn, these tables are pretty fun to read through, though. So refined!

900s = holy crap is it over already? I want to read more! This sounds so god damn AMAZING!

 

Great job sir, thank you for all the hard work put into this. A refreshing perspective and concept.

[Feam]

EDIT ADDITION:

I would like to note out that there are, of course, many flaws pointed out here. This system can't just be shoved into the game and "Poof", everything works, but I believe it is something the devs should look at and at least THINK about. (Not think about putting it in the game, not think about making it, just look, and THINK about what this means and how they can improve / change what they have according to this, or according to whatever they've thought about before)

 

One of my main concerns with this system is possibly what Carcharias said... "this would never run dry." and that means the game's core mechanics of every single ability need to be looked at THOROUGHLY before making such a system.

 

Basically, this Solar-System fits in perfectly with many situations in the game, but completely destroys others.

 

After writing this entire edit, I figured that maybe this system can work more properly in the game if we don't just SWITCH it with what we have, but instead integrate it into what we have.

So I wrote it as a new post instead, filled with this BAD IDEA that stops your GOOD IDEA from being TOO FOREIGN for this game.

 

What if you Solar Recharge had a "capacity" of its own, that is filled by Energy Orbs and drained by using a lot of powers?

This is a very RAW, ROUGH, and UNREFINED idea, but unless this Solar-System involves changing A LOT of the abilities in the game, this might be one of the few ways to make it "work".

 

As an example;

You SR starts with 20 orbs (orbs dropped from containers are worth 2 orbs). While you have 10 orbs, your SR is maxed, at 10SP/s (or 5SP/s if you are under 50% max SP)

when you use an ability, you lose 1 orb. when you drop below 15 orbs, your SR starts weakening.

When you have used up 20 abilities without killing a single enemy or getting a single orb, you can't recharge your SP anymore.

 

this is really just a quick-thought concept, and if we really want to eliminate Energy Orbs there are ways to make this orb system work otherwise (based on kills, based on level progression, who knows)

But what I'm saying is that some situations in this game, Boss Battles for example, can't allow you to use the current set of abilities that many Warframes have indefinitely after a short wait. Just imagine Ultimates with the way your system currently works!

Not even just Ultimates! Invisibility, Smoke Bomb, Link, Iron Skin, Snow Globe, etc

Can we allow them to be unlimited in a boss fight?

 

The current version of Warframe needs a situational-LIMITED system.

 

I'm sure there are better alternatives, but they all involve that one line. Maybe something way simpler like, and I am well aware that what I am about to write is very stupid, but it is written just to show a point: You could only use an ultimate x times per room.

That would never be a good idea, but it is at least a bit restrictive.

 

So yeah... Unless we change the abilities and the entire combat of this game, we can't just slap Energy away and put Solar in instead.

(I still loved the concept!)

[KuroLuffy]

+1 purely on effort alone.

[Story4]

@ Fleam i didn't look over your example thoroughly, i just skimmed it,but i looked over everything else and i have to say that i disagree.

I don't think that there is any situation in which this system isn't better than the current system.

For example in boss battles, warframes don't have a finite energy, because they will either A have 4 energy siphons, making 2 energy regen every second or B have a trinity and make all their energy problems go to Phorid.

So not having energy siphon or trinity's unlimited energy supply, players have to think how they will use their abilities even in boss fights. Trinity can make players have a little more lee-way over how much they can spam, but that's it.

Also the energy system when you are vs mobs is pretty much unlimited anyway. Why? Because you either gain orbs from enemies ro you get them from containers. While i am using rhino for example with rhino i can pretty much use iron skin non-stop if i use it after my shield are depleted, more-so if i go melee and get orbs directly from enemies.

With the solar-power system, if with Rhino you use Iron skin too fast then you will remain out of energy to use it more and if you use it properly you will still have to go without it for a while, but over time you will still be able to use it enough, just not spam it.

Also in the current system it's pretty much stupid to use anything else than the OP abilities (like Chaos, Iron skin etc.) because the others aren't cost effective. Since solar-power also uses solar-downtime, if you use your OP abilities then you won't be able to use them for some time, but if you use your lesser abilities you will regenerate fast enough to be able to spam them. It is my opinion that this will promote using simple abilities on regular foes and more powerful ones only when the situation warrants it.

 

Just so that you understand, I'm not bashing you, I'm just trying to show you that this system would be better. Also, the devs don't really need to work extra on balancing abilities because, as i have said, they already aren't balanced. I don't think there would be a problem to add it even if the abilities will be unbalanced at the beginning because you will be able to balance them over time and the SP doesn't restrict you THAT much anyway. This is also PvE so i don't think that balancing has to be like in a PvP game,so if they run the numbers a little I'm sure that since they are experienced they can achieve a pretty good SP cost and SD cost for every ability and tweak it after each week's patch according to the player feed-back.

[Effusion-]

I like the system in-combat.  Out of combat though it still potentially has the same problem that other regen/cooldown systems have: downtime.  Looking at example 1a, if the player kills their enemies in 10s they're left with 29s of waiting before reaching full power again (and they might actually want to do this because if they let iron skin drop while they're in the middle of a crowd of infested they're likely to get stun locked and die).  If you go in and and bottom out on power (eg you use your ult and wipe out a group), you're left with 15s+SD to wait around for full power again.  If in example 1b the fight ends at 13s you then have 18s of downtime, but you've have 77% uptime on iron skin in combat.

Although the system works quite well if you keep your SP over 50%, if you have to act in a suboptimal way it can potentially slow down gameplay even more than the current system.

 

I also don't see the system encouraging the use of a variety of powers.  Since the optimal way to play is by not letting your SP dip below 50% there's no particular reason the rhino would want to use anything aside from iron skin.  If they used charge above 75% they would have to wait an additional 5.5s to use iron skin again, longer if it caused them to dip below 50%.  After using radial blast they would have to wait at least 13s to use iron skin optimally.  18s for rhino stomp.

 

Finally, if SD is based off power duration then the Continuity mod is going to be detrimental in some cases (either by increasing out-of-combat downtime, or discouraging you from using abilities with durations that aren't your "best" power because they'll increase the time between activations of your "best" power even more.).  This one is obviously a simple fix though if duration is changed to base duration.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I do think this is a good first iteration.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Effusion-

[Story4]

I like the system in-combat.  Out of combat though it still potentially has the same problem that other regen/cooldown systems have: downtime.  Looking at example 1a, if the player kills their enemies in 10s they're left with 29s of waiting before reaching full power again (and they might actually want to do this because if they let iron skin drop while they're in the middle of a crowd of infested they're likely to get stun locked and die).  If you go in and and bottom out on power (eg you use your ult and wipe out a group), you're left with 15s+SD to wait around for full power again.  If in example 1b the fight ends at 13s you then have 18s of downtime, but you've have 77% uptime on iron skin in combat.

Although the system works quite well if you keep your SP over 50%, if you have to act in a suboptimal way it can potentially slow down gameplay even more than the current system.

 

I also don't see the system encouraging the use of a variety of powers.  Since the optimal way to play is by not letting your SP dip below 50% there's no particular reason the rhino would want to use anything aside from iron skin.  If they used charge above 75% they would have to wait an additional 5.5s to use iron skin again, longer if it caused them to dip below 50%.  After using radial blast they would have to wait at least 13s to use iron skin optimally.  18s for rhino stomp.

 

Finally, if SD is based off power duration then the Continuity mod is going to be detrimental in some cases (either by increasing out-of-combat downtime, or discouraging you from using abilities with durations that aren't your "best" power because they'll increase the time between activations of your "best" power even more.).  This one is obviously a simple fix though if duration is changed to base duration.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I do think this is a good first iteration.

 

Actually it would make you use other abilities more, especially ones like Rhino charge with Rhino becase they have lower SR cost and a lower SD duration, so you'll have to wait maybe 5 seconds until you can cast it again (if you keep SR above 50% so have 10 SR per sec) considering SR+SD time. So if you want to cast iron skin then you have to wait a lot more until you can cast it again, and if you spam it it will be sub-optimal and take even more time to use it, but if you use iron skin only when it's necessary and use other abilities most of the time you'll have constant solar power over 50% and a lot lower SD.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Story4

[Fatetaker]

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o9hqnbx1fphi0zh/Warframe%20-%20Energy%20Overhaul%20v0_2013_05_02.pdf

 

So I tried to design a new system that replaces the current energy system, because it has many flaws. Well, this is the outcome.

 

Warning! A lot of text.

 

 

I am very open to feedback, constructive criticism and suggestions from hardcore players, elitists, new players, and DE.

 

 

As much as I agree with the reasoning behind this, the proposal is not much different from the problem presented.

 

Placing a 20-30 second delay on energy/ability use is only delaying the speed and tempo of the game. Instead of having players dropping back and refilling thier energy you will have players waiting before engaging the the next room.

 

A better modified proposal would be to have a portion of the energy bar being a rapid regen to say half and then reducing energy orb drops to say, half. This would reduce the need to return to previous rooms to refill and keep the tempo forward.

 

As for using support abilities, the balance of cost would have to be reduced to say something trivial or no cost. As players will always prefer thier primary finisher over some weak support.

 

I suggest a Street Fighter inspired system. Support abilities and low cost abilities have thier costs reduced to zero and the powerful high cost abilities use a power bar. This power bar refils as you take and do damage. Problem solved, no more energy orbs, keeps action going and encourages one to push engagements.

[TinyLesbianRobot]

I was skeptical at first, but after reading the report, I love this.  In the past I haven't been fond of suggestions people have made for revamping the energy system, but this hits the nail right on the head.  I would love to see this implemented - great work.

[BETAOPTICS]

+1 support for this system!

[lautalocos]

Not really, you can have the same amount of shields, just tweak every skill's power requirement according to their level. For example a starting Loki with only 75 shield should be able to use decoy for just 10 shield cost or something just as small. When he is level 30 and has 375 shields, if he maxes decoy then decoy will cost 50 energy to use.

 

Pretty simple really.

the problem is that if the enemies take your shields, they take away your powers too.

[Effusion-]

Actually it would make you use other abilities more, especially ones like Rhino charge with Rhino becase they have lower SR cost and a lower SD duration, so you'll have to wait maybe 5 seconds until you can cast it again (if you keep SR above 50% so have 10 SR per sec) considering SR+SD time. So if you want to cast iron skin then you have to wait a lot more until you can cast it again, and if you spam it it will be sub-optimal and take even more time to use it, but if you use iron skin only when it's necessary and use other abilities most of the time you'll have constant solar power over 50% and a lot lower SD.

Under the current system you can use your cheaper abilities more frequently as well, but people tend to use all their energy for their "best" ability because using anything else takes away from how often they can use that best ability (and the best ability is often not the most expensive as with rhino, ash, excaliber, loki, nyx, etc).  This is unchanged in the proposed system.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Effusion-

[Story4]

Under the current system you can use your cheaper abilities more frequently as well, but people tend to use all their energy for their "best" ability because using anything else takes away from how often they can use that best ability (and the best ability is often no the most expensive as with rhino, ash, excaliber, loki, nyx, etc).  This is unchanged in the proposed system.

 

Not really, because with SP you can only use your best abilities once or twice before waiting for the SD and the SP to regenerate, but spammable,weaker abilities have a much lower SD and regenerate SP faster because they consume less.

In the current system, if you have 300 energy after flow and the mod which helps you save power, you can use your most powerful ability (like Nyx Chaos or Ember Fire blast) 4 or 5 times before needing to go look for loot and if you use any of your other powers like fireball you will be less effective and deal less damage overall because you can't use your most powerful ability.

So in the current system it actually penalizes you for trying to use other abilities that aren't as effective as your best ability by making you less effective, but with Solar Power you are encouraged to spam your weaker abilities because they don't cost that much, have low SD and you have to think more of the time when it is best to use your best ability.

Well at least that's how i see it. Also in the current system you can just spam your best ability like fire blast instead of fireball as much as you want if you have a trinity, 4 players with energy siphon or both.

[Notso]

You, sir, are a closet genius. Take my +1s! All of them!

Edited May 4, 2013 by Notso

[Effusion-]

Not really, because with SP you can only use your best abilities once or twice before waiting for the SD and the SP to regenerate, but spammable,weaker abilities have a much lower SD and regenerate SP faster because they consume less.

In the current system, if you have 300 energy after flow and the mod which helps you save power, you can use your most powerful ability (like Nyx Chaos or Ember Fire blast) 4 or 5 times before needing to go look for loot and if you use any of your other powers like fireball you will be less effective and deal less damage overall because you can't use your most powerful ability.

So in the current system it actually penalizes you for trying to use other abilities that aren't as effective as your best ability by making you less effective, but with Solar Power you are encouraged to spam your weaker abilities because they don't cost that much, have low SD and you have to think more of the time when it is best to use your best ability.

Well at least that's how i see it.

As I said, your best ability is not your most expensive ability on many frames.

Take a look at example 1c.  By using only iron skin in an optimal way you would have it up 38% of the time (48% is a typo), indefinitely.  If you used rhino charge once for every use of iron skin, you would have it up 27% of the time (29% less).  19% if you used radial blast (50% less).

Also in the current system you can just spam your best ability like fire blast instead of fireball as much as you want if you have a trinity, 4 players with energy siphon or both.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the current system either.  I'm pointing out where this proposed system could use some improvement.

 

I'm sure everyone has their own pet idea for how energy could or should work, so here's mine.  The only reason I'm bringing it up is because it is focused on addressing the two issues I think this proposed system doesn't solve, so maybe it will give the op some ideas for tweaking their own system.

Energy is gained from attacking enemies (different damage sources could have different coefficients.  Killing an enemy with your ult would yield less energy than cutting them up in melee), and each power has its own energy pool instead of a collective one.  For some abilities, eg fireball, the cost of activating the power would be less than the size of its pool so that you could use it a few time in a row.  This system would eliminate downtime completely as you gain no energy outside of combat, and using one ability would have no impact on how often you could use a different one.  The amount of energy it takes to refill an ability will determine how often you want to use it (eg you won't want to use your ult in every fight as it may take several fights to refill).

Edited May 5, 2013 by Effusion-

[BenHoliday]

Under the current system you can use your cheaper abilities more frequently as well, but people tend to use all their energy for their "best" ability because using anything else takes away from how often they can use that best ability (and the best ability is often no the most expensive as with rhino, ash, excaliber, loki, nyx, etc).  This is unchanged in the proposed system.

 

I agree. It would be nice to see a change from the current energy system, but I'm not sure this is the way to go as it doesn't do enough to encourage using multiple abilities. In the Rhino example, people would still use only the Iron Skin, because if they do it right they're invincible for the hottest parts of the fight, and that's far more important than anything else he can do with energy. If he used different skills as well, it would significantly reduce the number of times he could use Iron Skin.

 

I'd actually propose a system that combines cooldown and energy in a different way, such that each ability has its own cooldown, and only consumes energy while on cooldown. Combine this with a significant reduction in energy orb drops (or a switch to some other much slower way of recovering energy,) and it would encourage using multiple skills because if you don't use them more often than their cooldown they don't cost any energy, but you'd still have an energy reserve to utilize skills repeatedly if necessary. Even in your system, people can spam cheap attacks with low cooldowns, and as long as they stay above 50% of their max energy it recovers incredibly fast.

[timster7]

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o9hqnbx1fphi0zh/Warframe%20-%20Energy%20Overhaul%20v0_2013_05_02.pdf

 

So I tried to design a new system that replaces the current energy system, because it has many flaws. Well, this is the outcome.

 

Warning! A lot of text.

 

 

I am very open to feedback, constructive criticism and suggestions from hardcore players, elitists, new players, and DE.

 

seriously your thinking of putting a cooldown. I know the trend of gameplay thinks cooldown or global cooldown is the way to go but seriously we have enough energy to use our abilities the most is 9 time or 12 with streamline. 

 

Maybe on the forth ability which i considered the ultimate should have a cool down of 30s but the rest shouldn't have to have a cool down the reason why is it takes the fun out of speed for example Ash is the reason why there shouldn't be a cool down because I want to spam the heck out of teleport just because Ninjas are built that way. Second I would like to spam the heck out of sheriken because ninjas are built that way.

 

And Next this isn't WoW so its a bad idea in playing a fast pace game like a grandpa.

 

Anyways I would like to say Give us more energy and a faster regen ability so we can be like ninjas and mass kill til our fingers are swore. 

[JamnikPucek]

Overdone (if not worded nicely), plus introduces both global and local cool-down, even though it tries to hide it as much as it can. Seems overcomplicated for something that ultimately controls something relatively simple. Automatic regen again is a veiled cooldown.

 

In essence seems like a drastic departure to how the game works right now and not in a good way imho. 

[Effusion-]

I agree. It would be nice to see a change from the current energy system, but I'm not sure this is the way to go as it doesn't do enough to encourage using multiple abilities. In the Rhino example, people would still use only the Iron Skin, because if they do it right they're invincible for the hottest parts of the fight, and that's far more important than anything else he can do with energy. If he used different skills as well, it would significantly reduce the number of times he could use Iron Skin.

 

I'd actually propose a system that combines cooldown and energy in a different way, such that each ability has its own cooldown, and only consumes energy while on cooldown. Combine this with a significant reduction in energy orb drops (or a switch to some other much slower way of recovering energy,) and it would encourage using multiple skills because if you don't use them more often than their cooldown they don't cost any energy, but you'd still have an energy reserve to utilize skills repeatedly if necessary. Even in your system, people can spam cheap attacks with low cooldowns, and as long as they stay above 50% of their max energy it recovers incredibly fast.

I really like that idea.