Suggestion: Ability Cooldowns

[Lord.Finster]

Lots of people seem to have problems with the energy system in the game and some simply dislike it altogether.

Personally, I don't hate it but I find myself and other players exploiting the system where possible.

Now, I don't want to discuss whether or not this behaviour spoils my own fun or the fun of others (because I think it does) but rather propose an alternative:

 

An ability system based on cooldowns.

 

First I want to adress some of these problems then I want to state my reasons why a cooldown system might help:

 

1) Internal balance of the energy costs of warframe abilites:

Some powers aren't efficient enough for their energy cost. They lack power, utility or team synergy. Some are highly situational and put you in a place where you aren't any help for the team or where the team becomes in fact a nuisance that hinders your effectivity.

 

A cooldown system would remedy that simply by the fact that abilities don't cost energy. Instead players want to use the ability whenever it comes off cooldown. That still doesn't mean that they will be used regularly but you can bet that they will be used whenever the opportunity presents itself. Finally Ash players will teleport and Excaliburs super-jump on a regular basis. Players might even look more actively for opportunities to use those skills instead of saving their energy for the more efficient powers. Which brings me to the second point.

 

2) Ability spamming:

My typical bossfight goes like this (with Rhino). I run to the boss, use iron skin and empty all my ammo into him ignoring all his/her/its abilites and damge. With 150 energy i can do this 3 times in a row, which, with continuity mod, allows me a full minute of free and mindless firing in close proximity. Hardly any boss survives this, especially if I have backup. While this is extremely efficient it is also very boring. Similar effects can be caused by Trinity and Frost.

When I play Excalibur I spam slashdash instead of using Radial Javelin or vs. bosses I tend to blind them. Others only use radial javelin and do not even equip slashdash. What a shame!

The effect is the same. I determine the most efficient ability and spam it to maximise my damage output.

Some people only equip one ability of their choice. A clear sign that the system is broken in some way.

 

Cooldowns would remedy this because, well, after use the ability goes on cooldown and can't be used again for a certain period of time. That means players will have to adapt strategies that involve juggling and chaining their abilities in a meaningful way, allowing a more varied, interesting gameplay.

 

3) Energy hoarding:

Sometimes you get a warframe with a very good ultimate power (or very expensive non-ult). Players of said warframes find themselves hoarding energy for those powers, especially if they expect a bossfight or a real horde of enemies, meanwhile abstaining from the use of any other power so they have enough when they finally let loose. While some call it foresight and careful resource management i call it boring and tedious.

 

In a cooldown-based system keeping your expensive skill off cooldown does not impede your gameplay. You will still be able to use your other skills without impeding the use of your ulitmate, because no precious energy will be drained from you.

 

 

But how can we realize a change in such a fundamental dynamic?

Surprisingly simple!

 

1)Mods:

Continuity, Focus and Reach work as per usual.

Streamline reduces overall cooldowns of abilities on a percentage basis.

Flow affects the collection of the blue orbs (see below) or reduces cooldowns on a flat number basis.

 

2)Orbs:

The blue power orbs reduce cooldown time by a certain amount when picked up. If only one skill is on cooldown all the power goes into that skill, if several are on cooldown the reduction time will be evenly spread among those. Flow might increase the efficiency of the blue orbs by a certain percentage.

 

3)Greying out the skills:

Right now skills turn grey if you don't have enough energy to use it. They'd turn grey in my system when they are on cooldown. A timed indicator like in DOTA would be optional though, as it requires extra programming. It can be added at a later stage if necessary.

 

4)Abilities:

Instead of an energy cost, every ability comes with a specific cooldown time, that has to be balanced around the metagame. Learning and getting a feel for these would up the skill ceiling for this game and make it more interesting to play and watch.

 

 

Your thoughts ladies and gents?

[crow-k]

In the first paragraph I think i hated you. The more i read the more I felt that it sounds like a wonderful idea if it is done right. 

[Tsukinoki]

The main issue I see with this is two fold:

1) Everyone waiting outside of a door for their cds to refresh, like what happened in CBT when DE used a CD system.  And that really breaks gameplay flow and slows down missions.  Having orbs reduce CD would help mitigate the issues a little bit, BUT most people would stop because there would not zero reason to not go in when you can park outside for 20 to 30 seconds and have your abilities refreshed.

2) Balance with CD and mods.  You would have to drastically lower the effects of streamline and flow in your system.  Otherwise say that an ult takes a 60 second CD.  With a 30% streamline that would lower it down to 42 seconds.  If flow also lowered the CDs even further directly you would have people able to drop essentially a nuke ever 30 seconds or so.  Also some abilities are currently balanced around a bit of spam, such as slash dash or ashes shuriken.

[Rakuall]

"allowing a more varied, interesting gameplay."
 

No. What this does is remove it. There is nothing stopping you from varying your abilities, using at them at non-critical times, etc. What you propose completely eliminates the 1-2 ability spam playstyle. You may not enjoy it, but some do. Also, every game and it's grandmother these days uses cooldown for its abilities, I like the alternative DE has implemented.

[Tsukinoki]

"allowing a more varied, interesting gameplay."

 

No. What this does is remove it. There is nothing stopping you from varying your abilities, using at them at non-critical times, etc. What you propose completely eliminates the 1-2 ability spam playstyle. You may not enjoy it, but some do. Also, every game and it's grandmother these days uses cooldown for its abilities, I like the alternative DE has implemented.

All that CDs really do is FORCE you to use abilities you otherwise wouldn't while the abilities you like are on CD and unusable.  That's not 'allowing' more of anything.  That's just forcing you to play in a way you dont like.

[Creavyer]

now i didnt read all of it but my general thought on the cooldown system is no, just no like all the other topics about this system

i like it as it is right now, i dont want the game based on using cooldowns and the problem isnt that you can spam the abilitys.

Its proberly more that some abilitys are to effectful due their energy cost but we are still in the beta and sure these things will be balanced better at some point but no prio imo.

Since the bosses are just as easy with or without ironskin tbh.

[MetalGerbil]

the current system gives you a choice. how much energy do you have? whats the current situation? what will you be facing? how was the fight up to this point? what can you expect to see later?

 

these all make you think strategically. cooldowns remove that completely. you blow them every chance you get and they inherently encourage you to do so as popping them early lets them refresh faster.

 

you go from option priority (guns/melee first then skills) to mindless skill spam. choosing to blow 100 energy has impact and can affect you later. there is no need for thought or planning with cooldowns as any consequence is negated the second your cooldown refreshes again. 

 

you go from "what should i do in this situation" to "run in an spam your skills".

 

so its either "pick one" or "just do everything". one requires you to think and the other doesnt.

 

 

 

PS: i was very set in the "horde" mentality until i started noticing just how many blue orbs droped from kills. once people start moving away from their comfert zones and make efficient use of energy you never really run out. 

 

if you balance kill ratio versus energy intake you usually end up with a surplus that can then be used on costly/utility skills.

 

this is made far easier since they boosted your total energy significantly. and its is absolute cakewalk if you have energy related mods.

 

the system, as it is currently implemented in the game, can easily allow for more skill spam than what would surely be ridiculous cooldowns for the harder hitting skills. (granted with a bit of luck)

Edited May 3, 2013 by MetalGerbil

[Mietz]

Oh god not another one of those.

[Lord.Finster]

The main issue I see with this is two fold:

1) Everyone waiting outside of a door for their cds to refresh, like what happened in CBT when DE used a CD system.  And that really breaks gameplay flow and slows down missions.  Having orbs reduce CD would help mitigate the issues a little bit, BUT most people would stop because there would not zero reason to not go in when you can park outside for 20 to 30 seconds and have your abilities refreshed.

2) Balance with CD and mods.  You would have to drastically lower the effects of streamline and flow in your system.  Otherwise say that an ult takes a 60 second CD.  With a 30% streamline that would lower it down to 42 seconds.  If flow also lowered the CDs even further directly you would have people able to drop essentially a nuke ever 30 seconds or so.  Also some abilities are currently balanced around a bit of spam, such as slash dash or ashes shuriken.

1) I can see that happen before a bossfight and guess what, with spammability removed some bosses might even need a solid strategy to kill. Time to talk a bit with your cell how you want to take it down. Another way to counter that might be a meditation function. Press a button and your character kneels down like outside of combat and speeds up the cooldown.

In normal gameplay most enemies aren't enough of a challenge to trigger such cowardly behaviour. Most people tend to rush their missions guns blazing as quick as possible. Speedruns might award the players with credit and/or XP bonusses.

2)Balancing is always an issue, energy or not. But my opinion is that abilities should be designed in a way that makes spamming unnecessary. Abilities have room for amping up their power if you have to use them carefully. If you use slashdash in a stupid way and end up staring into 10 enemy gunbarrels, slashdashing out of the danger zone again should not be possible. Where is the fun in that? But maybe, just maybe a super jump would help in that situation...

[TehJumpingJawa]

I agree with OP; having ability cooldowns would give the devs better control over how frames utilize their abilities and would encourage greater diversity in their use. (rather than just using all your energy to spam the 'best' ability)

 

I'm sure there are several other threads on this topic that the moderators could merge into one...

[Tsukinoki]

1) I can see that happen before a bossfight and guess what, with spammability removed some bosses might even need a solid strategy to kill. Time to talk a bit with your cell how you want to take it down. Another way to counter that might be a meditation function. Press a button and your character kneels down like outside of combat and speeds up the cooldown.

In normal gameplay most enemies aren't enough of a challenge to trigger such cowardly behaviour. Most people tend to rush their missions guns blazing as quick as possible. Speedruns might award the players with credit and/or XP bonusses.

2)Balancing is always an issue, energy or not. But my opinion is that abilities should be designed in a way that makes spamming unnecessary. Abilities have room for amping up their power if you have to use them carefully. If you use slashdash in a stupid way and end up staring into 10 enemy gunbarrels, slashdashing out of the danger zone again should not be possible. Where is the fun in that? But maybe, just maybe a super jump would help in that situation...

I dont see it adding to strategy at all.

Afterall, with a static CD system what would beat: Pop in, deal ability damage and then kite around the room until it recharges!

Right now against all bosses but the Jackal *most* frames have to measure their ability usages.  Which takes a lot more thinking and strategy then "Kite the boss for 30 seconds hit it for 20 seconds then repeat until boss is dead".

Also if you make Trinities Energy Vamp affect CDs you would see her usage against bosses jump far more than it already is...and she can already face roll bosses with link.

She casts energy vamp and everyone pops damaging abilities...massively lowering all of their CDs they just acrued while she makes back a lot of energy vamps CD herself...

And DE already tried it and decided that a CD system slowed down the gameplay too much which is why we have an energy system now.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[TehJumpingJawa]

I dont see it adding to strategy at all.

Afterall, with a static CD system what would beat: Pop in, deal ability damage and then kite around the room until it recharges!

Right now against all bosses but the Jackal *most* frames have to measure their ability usages.  Which takes a lot more thinking and strategy then "Kite the boss for 30 seconds hit it for 20 seconds then repeat until boss is dead".

 

Anti-kiting boss abilities?

 

As the bosses all need a total overhaul anyway, I don't see a problem with factoring player ability cooldowns into the design of boss encounters.

[Lord.Finster]

the current system gives you a choice. how much energy do you have? whats the current situation? what will you be facing? how was the fight up to this point? what can you expect to see later?

 

these all make you think strategically. cooldowns remove that completely. you blow them every chance you get and they inherently encourage you to do so as popping them early lets them refresh faster.

 

you go from option priority (guns/melee first then skills) to mindless skill spam. choosing to blow 100 energy has impact and can affect you later. there is no need for thought or planning with cooldowns as any consequence is negated the second your cooldown refreshes again. 

 

you go from "what should i do in this situation" to "run in an spam your skills".

 

so its either "pick one" or "just do everything". one requires you to think and the other doesnt.

 

 

 

PS: i was very set in the "horde" mentality until i started noticing just how many blue orbs droped from kills. once people start moving away from their comfert zones and make efficient use of energy you never really run out. 

 

if you balance kill ratio versus energy intake you usually end up with a surplus that can then be used on costly/utility skills.

 

this is made far easier since they boosted your total energy significantly. and its is absolute cakewalk if you have energy related mods.

 

the system, as it is currently implemented in the game, can easily allow for more skill spam than what would surely be ridiculous cooldowns for the harder hitting skills. (granted with a bit of luck)

My proposition does not remove freedom in a meaningless way. The choices offered are simply different ones.

Can I afford a slashdash when i have no other means of escape equipped? Can I afford to blow my ultimate just before we reach the bosses location? What do I do once my iron skin/invisibility runs out?

 

The only force aplied is that players must think one more step ahead to make the best out of their abilites and they have to better coordinate with their fellow players.

 

As for using them all at once. Well, if you can coordinate that, why not? All your skills will be on cooldown for a time so other players get a chance to shine as well, while you have to rely on gunplay or melee to contribute to the fight. Real Spamming is only possible with the same skill or maybe two. Coordinating 4 different skills for maximum results is not what i call spamming.

[Venarge]

Already has been suggested and rejected many times before. I think that will not change with any other cooldown suggestion....

[TehJumpingJawa]

Just throwing ideas out there.... but how about cooldowns based on something other than time?

 

Kills?

Damage?

Something else? (based upon the power type)

[Tsukinoki]

TehJumpingJawa, on 03 May 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Just throwing ideas out there.... but how about cooldowns based on something other than time?

Kills?

Damage?

Something else? (based upon the power type)

Problem with basing it off of kills or damage is think of what happens if you start to fall behind in that department. Once you fall behind you try to catch up but your allies can use abilities and kill things before you have a chance meaning that you stay behind.

[TehJumpingJawa]

Problem with basing it off of kills or damage is think of what happens if you start to fall behind in that department. Once you fall behind you try to catch up but your allies can use abilities and kill things before you have a chance meaning that you stay behind.

 

I don't necessarily mean kills & damage caused by abilities.

If you used kills/damage from guns & melee as the recharge trigger (sort of a blood lust/rage mechanic), you'd earn the usage of your abilities by going crazy killing shiz.

 

It'd eliminate both the 'waiting for cooldowns' problem, and the 'kiting for cooldowns' problem and thus keep the pace of the game up.

 

Don't know what you'd call it though; "Rage-o-meter"; "Bloodlust" ; "Combat focus"; "Soul pool".

Depends what kind of lore you want to concoct for justifying it.

Edited May 3, 2013 by TehJumpingJawa

[Tsukinoki]

I don't necessarily mean kills & damage caused by abilities; the majority of damage comes from guns & melee.

Problem still exists:

you go to kill something i clear the room with an aoe and rush ahead, getting more energy and killing more enemies along the way.

How are you going to use abilities?  And what if I was using a weapon that hit a lot harder/faster?  Say you prefer using the paris while Im using my boltors and Im killing/damaging things faster than you are.  You're going to fall behind and be unable to use abilities while i can use all the abilities I want.

Please dont take it that I am just trying to bash your ideas or anything.  Im just asking honest questions that should be brought up to consider your point and consider how to balance them.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Ryanshow]

Even if I agreed with your cooldown argument which I don't its still a moot point.

 

Why would I waste mod capacity on useless skills?

[Tsukinoki]

Even if I agreed with your cooldown argument which I don't its still a moot point.

 

Why would I waste mod capacity on useless skills?

This is another good point.

There are abilities people equip and use.  If they dont use them they dont equip them and use the mod points for other, more useful, mods.  So this wouldn't make them equip the mods.  And IF they make every single ability powerful enough to use and make you want to use them often....you'll slow down gameplay because if they are that powerful/useful why go into a room if you are unable to use them?

Edited May 3, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[TehJumpingJawa]

Problem still exists:

you go to kill something i clear the room with an aoe and rush ahead, getting more energy and killing more enemies along the way.

How are you going to use abilities?  And what if I was using a weapon that hit a lot harder/faster?  Say you prefer using the paris while Im using my boltors and Im killing/damaging things faster than you are.  You're going to fall behind and be unable to use abilities while i can use all the abilities I want.

Please dont take it that I am just trying to bash your ideas or anything.  Im just asking honest questions that should be brought up to consider your point and consider how to balance them.

 

Resolve it based on the group's performance, rather than individuals and take into account proximity to the action (like XP is handled at the moment).

 

This would encourage teamplay and synergistic team compositions, without punishing the less DPS-focussed members of the group.

 

Obviously lone wolf players that run off and leave the group will be at a cooldown recharge disadvantage (as well as the already present XP earning disadvantage)

Edited May 3, 2013 by TehJumpingJawa

[TehJumpingJawa]

Even if I agreed with your cooldown argument which I don't its still a moot point.

 

Why would I waste mod capacity on useless skills?

 

More powerful/useful abilities -> longer cooldown

 

At the moment all abilities are fed from a single energy pool; this discourages the use of less useful abilities as they sap your capacity to use the more powerful abilities.

 

If you had cooldowns (regardless of how the cooldown is implemented), every equipped ability would recharge independently, thus your weak abilities would not lessen your capacity to use your more powerful abilities.

 

As the weaker abilities would have shorter cooldowns, you'd have something to use inbetween your 'ultimates' - just the way DOTA style games work (not that I play them myself.... but I do see the value to their mechanics).

Edited May 3, 2013 by TehJumpingJawa

[TehJumpingJawa]

You could also weight the cooldown boost on a per weapon basis.

 

Thus you could make certain weapons more attractive to 'caster builds'; while these weapons might output less raw damage they'd instead grant larger cooldown reductions per kill/damage. (akin to a Mage's staff/wand in a fantasy setting)

Edited May 3, 2013 by TehJumpingJawa

[Tsukinoki]

You could also weight the cooldown boost on a per weapon basis.

 

Thus you could make certain weapons more attractive to 'caster builds'; while these weapons might output less raw damage they'd instead grant larger cooldown reductions per kill/damage. (akin to a Mage's staff/wand in a fantasy setting)

Now we are getting somewhere.

While I may not agree with a whole-sale replacing of the current energy system, I do like discussing other options because there might be something that changes my mind.  I just want to see those ideas fleshed out before I begin to heavily discuss/consider them.

[Mietz]

Just throwing ideas out there.... but how about cooldowns based on something other than time?

 

Kills?

Damage?

Something else? (based upon the power type)

 

Cooldowns based on kills and damage is best illustrated by Strike Suite Zero.

 

What happens is this:

 

You shoot your "normal" guns, to gain meter, then you unleash your "supers"

 

At this point there are two design philosophies:

 

a. the damage from supers doesn't generate meter

b. the damage from supers does generate meter

 

With a. you have an unreliable super that you have to build like in a fighting game, unleash it once and then need to build it again.

 

With b. you fire missiles, to fire more missiles, to fire more missiles, to fire more missiles....