Mods, The Backbone Of Warframe, Are Boring #2

[Playford]

This is my second thread on the topic, I'm not satisfied with how the first one turned out and want to start over because I think it's relevant to the "focus on quality" discussion from Devstream #44. Link to the first thread for the curious.

 

Let me seperate mods into two categories; fun and boring.

Just to be clear, fun is not good by default, boring is not bad by default, we have fun mods that are bad, and boring mods that are good. This seperation is based on their effects on gameplay.

What do I mean by that? Simple, fun mods are about mechanics, boring mods are about statistics.

 

Small note:

Some may object to using words such as fun/boring, if you prefer you can think of them as mechanical/statistical. I'm using fun/boring because those words best describe my feelings about them and their effect on gameplay.

 

Examples of fun mods are Rage, Heavy Impact, Retribution, Melee Channel, etc... all of these have a mechanic and provide a benefit if the proper conditions are met.

These give players new tools to play with and create new playstyles.

 

Examples of boring mods are Vitality, Ammo Drum, Pressure Point, Tactical Pump, etc... all of these provide a statistical benefit, they make numbers bigger (or smaller in a few cases). It's functional but boring.

So far they allow two things; keep doing what you are already doing, just with bigger numbers, or specialise in one or two skills on your warframe to create a one-trick pony. There is very little variety.

 

"So just use fun mods then :D" some would say.

 

There are two problems with this:

1. There are nowhere near enough fun mods.

2. They are mostly overshadowed by the boring ones.

 

Problem #1 is solved easily enough, just add more fun mods, just for fun I'll make some suggestions at the bottom (feel free to suggest your own).

The only downside to this is further dilution of the mod pool, there is no best solution, but here are a few suggestions:

- Simplest solution is replacing mods that are boring and bad (elemental resistance mods such as Antitoxin, Insulation, Warm Coat).

- Make them alert and invasion rewards, or even rewards for missions that currently don't have one (stuff like spy, capture, sabotage, exterminate, another thing discussed in the devstream).

- Rewards for completeing daily quests for Darvo or that upcoming Cephalon obsessed with scanning also mentioned in the devstream.

 

 

Problem #2 on the other hand is a bit more complicated.

Fun mods that are commonly used are Rage on warframes that have a reliable way of regenerating HP, Heavy Impact sees less use, mostly on Zephyr where it acts like a single-ability power strength mod, Quick Thinking is also used (though less since the change to its mechanics). Very rarely do I hear other ones being used (I would really like to know how many people use Retribution, Shield Flux, Provoked, Shock Absorbers, Handspring... I guess some of these being rare use unicorn eggs doesn't help either).

Unless we are talking about specific builds on specific 'frames, most fun mods have no place in the current meta of "stats above all else". Rank 10 and elemental damage mods are probably the biggest offenders. They are vital on just about any build (weapon and warframe) simply because of the insane enemy damage output/health at higher levels, it's very difficult to justify not putting them into your equipment leaving no room for anything else.

 

I can think of two three solutions.

 

First is very simple, introduce extra slots specifically for these types of mods. While I think two of these should be fine, I personally would prefer four.

The downside is that it would make Forma even more important in order to fully slot your equipment with max rank mods. More grind, yay?

 

Second solution is shrinking the numbers on damage/health mods along with the statistics of our enemies.

And now people are screaming "You wanna nerf everything!!! D:"

Not so, it's about making the numbers smaller, including those of our enemies, with the current balance remaining the same(ish).

 

Quick note:

I'm only talking about the warframe health and weapon damage mods, meaning Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Point Blank (+their corrupted counterparts), all elemental damage mods (+ the damage on event dual stat mods, the status chance is fine).

 

Mods that affect abilities like Inensify, Streamline, Continuity etc. already use fairly restrained numbers and don't need changing.

 

This one is kinda difficult to explain and I won't be surpised if it's controversial, but here goes:

 

Suppose we have an Excalibur with maxed HP/Shields, meaning maxed Vitality, Redirection and Vigor for 860/860. It takes 10 hits for an enemy of level [x] to take down that Excalibur. What if the scaling was changed so it takes that same enemy of the same level [x] needs 10 hits to kill Excalibur when he has no HP/Shield mods (so he's 300/300), but the mods themselves were "nerfed" to give relatively minor bonuses so that with them Excalibur has 470/470, They would give a decent amount of survivability but nowhere near as much as before.

Those types of mods would remain good and viable, this change is more about making other stuff just as viable.

For new players that don't have a huge collection of mods and those that don't care for gimmicks practically nothing should change except the numbers in the UI.

 

But now we have two very different problems; first being the complete overhaul of balance which at this point is a massive undertaking.

Second is that people like big numbers, and I do too, seeing 80k+ crits is really amusing, seeing 1k+ shields is empowering. However balancing around big numbers is difficult because it's done by humans who kinda have to make educated guesses how it's all going to work, and because of the way mods scale, differences that are minor at low level become exacerbated at higer levels. Some might say that's fine, and it is within reason, but we have abanoned reason long ago.

 

[EDIT]

After giving it some extra thought I have come up with a third solution, and that is making some specific mods global.

To clarify, some specific mods are always in effect as your weapon/warframe ranks up, without having them equipped.

So for example; you have a R10 Serration, as you level up a weapon to R4 the base serration kicks in, and as the weapon levels up further, each level a Serration of corresponding rank kicks in.

 

The only downside I can think of is that it would mess with some Rage oriented builds because you would have extra shields you don't want. This can be solved by allowing users to set up exceptions in the customization menu.

[/EDIT]

 

My point is, numbers are inflated just to be inflated, and it's hurting the variety of builds.

 

I'm not a big fan of either any of the three solutions, but prefer the rebalance one because it seems the most viable long-term.

 

Before my list of suggestions for fun mods, here are two videos by the Extra Credits team that I consider very relevant to the topic at hand.

Choice in mechanics - www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg8fVtKyYxY

Power creep and balance - www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

 

 

Warframes:

- Desperation: power strength increases the less hp you have.

- Battle Trance: casting abilites gives a (temporary) stacking buff that increases casting speed.

- Juggernaut: while sprinting, inflict an impact proc and ragdoll enemies you bump into, each impact drains stamina.

- Ablative Shell: after you taking enough health damage, purge all status effects, and gain temporary immunity to them (damage from bleed and toxin counts).

- None Left Behind: if someone on team is bleeding out, bonus armor and movement speed.

- United We Stand: chance to resist knockdown when near other Tenno, shared with teammates.

- Bloodrage: while bleeding, bonus damage for weapons and abilities.

- Doppelganger: after using an ability (after the animation ends), create a temporary holographic decoy that roams around distracting enemies. Decoy has no hitbox and doesn't deal damage (basically a Hall of Mirrors clone, just independant and doesn't do damage).

 

Melee weapons:

- Phantasm: attacks have a chance of creating autonomus holographic decoys that distract enemies (see above).

- Repeated Strikes: gain bonus damage when attacking the same enemy repeatedly, attacking a new enemy removes the bonus.

- Crippling Weakness: deal bonus damage the less % hp your enemy has.

- Crippling Fear: critical hits that kill causes nearby enemies to become terrified.

- Nothing Wasted: overkill damage is stored and used on the next attack. Kinda hard to put this one into words, but here's an example, enemy has 5 hp, you kill it with an attack that deals 20 damage, that extra 15 damage is stored and used on the next attack.

- Pickpocket: melee finishers that kill generate extra loot (basically a single target Desecrate).

- Essence Theft: after killing an Eximus temporarily gain its aura.

- Great Riposte: when resisting a knockdown attack (either by blocking or by knockdown resistance mods) perform a melee strike that hits all enemies in range and does bonus damage.

 

Ranged weapons:

- Rigged Magazine: after reloading, drop the used magazine which acts as a stun grenade, dealing little damage but stunning in an area that increases in size the more rounds were in the magazine at the time of reload (unused ammo is lost).

- Shock and Awe: while shooting, enemies in a small radius around the shooter are staggered, enemies in a larger radius have their accuracy reduced (not compatible with noise reduction mods, not usable on weapons that are silent by default, such as bows).

- Focus Fire: if you fire a long enough burst, reload faster (only usable on fully automatic weapons).

- Headhunter: headshots give a (temporary) stacking buff to damage, bodyshots deal the extra damage but reset stacks to 0.

- Shrapnel: physical damage procs affects all enemies in a radius around the primary target.

 

I realise some of these may be unbalanced, too gimmicky, or have overlap with some warframe abilities, consider them just a demonstration of the "if -> then" mechanics such mods should have.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Playford

[Frost.Umbra]

I like a lot of your ideas. Please keep posting them.

[Kestral9999]

Not to nitpick but the word you're looking for is utility/utilitarian not mechanic/mechanical.

 

*still reading*

[legendarysidekicksteve]

First, I think for the sake of discussion, you should replace the subjective terms "fun mods" and "boring mods" to something along the lines of "mechanics based" vs "statisics based" mods. Not everyone thinks the "fun mods" are fun, or the "boring mods" are boring.

 

Second, your second suggestion to artificially lower the stat boosts given by mods like Redirection etc, doesn't really change anything or encourage players to use "mechanics based" mods. Most players will still choose a boost in max sheilds, no matter how small, over something like Shock Absorbers. As long as those situational mods have to compete with the same space for stat mods that give immediate boosts and universal application, those situational mods will always lose out. The core probelm with mods is that players will always choose the most optimal build, and mechanics based mods simply aren't optimal, unless they bring an amazing amount of utility like the Rage mod. Remember, this is a player choice, and that at any time, a player can choose to use the less optimal situational mods, so that if they really wanted to, they could have a build of only "fun" mods. 

 

This is why I think the first suggestion is the better alternative of the two, as it creates a sitiatuion in which the two types of mods do not compete with each other. Of course, this still won't completely solve the probelm, as some sitiuational mods are going to be better than others, and the less optimal ones will fall wayside again.

[Artemis_Frame]

I like your suggestions and agree on the red balancing for the very reason that you kind of have to be godlike if you want to solo the most of the time due to crappy bug frigin EVERYWHERE causing host migrations, crashes, etc . but for that re balancing of enemies are needed as well. But also they could just as well replace major mods like serration(and the others) with more diverse mods like head shot damage mods or more elemental combos, but then again enemies would either have to be respec't in order for those mods to work. DE has kind thrown this one into a really, REALLY deep pit without any contingencies! So yeah its kind of hard.

But all in all, what is needed to give a solution to your dilemma is for DE to add and change content in such a way that your "fun" or better said situational mods are more appealing. For instance the shock absorber mod that increases resistance to knockdown which means that there will be required to add or change a common enemy that knocks you down almost every time you see it and then literally kills you while laying down that kind of stuff is the only solution I see to this. And that is the problem, better quality requires more content but luckily more specific based content.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Artemis_Frame

[Playford]

Remember, this is a player choice, and that at any time, a player can choose to use the less optimal situational mods, so that if they really wanted to, they could have a build of only "fun" mods.

"Only fun mods build" tried it, worthless beyond Mars. The only reason it works on Mars is because any rank 30 'frame has enough hp/shields/max level abilities to handle it, not because of mods.

Ideally, builds should use a mix of both types.

[VoidPunch]

I like this and I like your mod suggestions. I think when mods get their re-balance, there should be a huge increase in benefit to the "fun" mods. Having stats boosted is a guaranteed result and it is rather boring and straight forward and because of it, everyone will flock to those at first. Having mods with more specialized effects and mechanics but give you better boosts then "boring" mods during those circumstances would promote a lot of different build diversity and play styles.

 

I would like to see more interesting mods buffed like say...

 

- Retribution buffed, give it a 90% chance to stun since you can't be blocking and it has to hit your shield to activate. This would promote melee builds and CQC builds.

 

- Reduce the velocity needed for Heavy Impact to trigger. Many CC builds could come from this without playing a CC frame.

 

- Make Handspring an immediate effect, once you get knocked down you immediately back spring back up. Increased survivability, esp for solo players.

 

- Energy Channel should not have a max damage stored but rather a percentage based increase to damage. You have to spend energy for this to even work, I think it should justify whatever the energy cost, pretty much a power.

 

Many of these would seem a little too good but everyone has to keep in mind that you are sacrificing 'important' mods to boost your stats in favor of something that is more fun and ultimately a by chance/certain playstyle mod. That is how you promote build diversity, by giving people the option to out perform other players but only in certain situations/play styles. Give some to get some type of balance.

Edited January 22, 2015 by HandsOfnArtist

[Playford]

Just to clarify my position, there is nothing wrong with mods that are just statistical upgrades, what is wrong is that they are the only thing worth looking at when modding your gear.

[(XBOX)Skode]

Some of the "fun" mods ill never use but they do sound "fun". They are just TOO niche... i CAN see maybe a use in faster casting time of my skills but do i actually ever see me feeling compelled to use a mod slot so wall running takes less stamina?

 

My only solution is to take these needless but interesting mods and add them onto existing mods. Nobody is gonna equip a mod which gives more time to hack security panels or gives fire resistance but add it onto an existing "boring" mod and you know there is a legit chance it will get used. Its fun having a frame that runs a lot faster, move through the air quicker and lands with a massive shockwave... at least it sound fun, no one is actually gonna build a frame like that for any more than a brief giggle before going back to T4 voids but as is again theyre just too niche. In fact whilst im talking niche some of them are just too hard to get a hold of as well IMO - good old Warframe RNG effects even getting the mods you didnt realise you never wanted lol

[Playford]

Added a third suggestion for the problem of having some mods mandatory.