Single Target Abilities Are Useless Compared To Aoe Abilities

[lautalocos]

i think one of the biggest problems with balancing in warframe is how in (almost) all situations using your number 1 skill (like mind control, ash shuriken, smite, fireball, soul punch, freeze, etc.) is a waste of energy and time.

 

the utility some of these skills give is useless compared to doing more by shooting (even when using ability strength mods), or using "ultimate" abilities which besides doing more damage, also cover a large area.

 

as an example, why would i use ash shuriken, when i can do more damage by using bladestorm, which not only damages more enemies, but also gives me invincibility? it costs more energy, but in how many situations can´t i regain that energy easily? why would i use smite, when i can use reckoning to disable the enemies for a few seconds and do more damage?

 

this problem wouldn't be fixed by nerfing those AOE skills (which i personally think we can spam a little bit too much, but this topic is not about that), because then we would just have 2 useless skills instead of 1.

 

i think these number 1 abilities should do more damage than the "ultimate" abilities, or just shooting at enemies, because otherwise they just feel like a complete waste of energy.

 

i know this isn't just as simple as just adding more damage to these skils, or adding CC to them (since DE has to consider how these buffs affect the rest of the warframe kit, energy cost, how mods affect the skill, etc.) but i think this has to be changed, at least in some way, so that each warframe doesn't feel like a one trick pony, and so that the game separates itself from the press-4-to-win gameplay

Edited March 21, 2015 by lautalocos

[Sy-kess]

Personally I'd rather have most abilities be more focused on utility then damage. Like Ashs Shuriken aug, which removes armor. SUPER helpful if you think about it, but not really worth the mod slot.

[VoidPunch]

First off, they are super cheap so I don't see why you expect so much out of them. Second, some of them are used for status, knockdown, cc, etc, not just killing and are mostly situational, as they should be. Freezing and enemy solid or stunning them with fire has it's uses.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Part of the problem is that guns easily outdamage all of the damage focused ones, and there are better options for all of the utility focused ones. Guns should do less damage and damage abilities should do more, but with the utilities there isn't much of a fix unless our heavies start becoming actual heavies (so neutralizing them would be more helpful than it is now. Now, it's usually better to pour more bullets in than to waste time casting an ability).

Also, the Corrupted mods have hurt the first abilities because who's going to mod for those?

[lautalocos]

Personally I'd rather have most abilities be more focused on utility then damage. Like Ashs Shuriken aug, which removes armor. SUPER helpful if you think about it, but not really worth the mod slot.

 

that's a problem that is deeper in how the game works. 

 

even if ash shuriken completely removed the enemies armor, it would still not be as useful as bladestorm or using your guns, because with the amount of enemies the players has to fight at the same time, the player has to kill as fast as possible, or completely disable the enemy so that they can´t fight back

[lautalocos]

First off, they are super cheap so I don't see why you expect so much out of them. Second, some of them are used for status, knockdown, cc, etc, not just killing and are mostly situational, as they should be. Freezing and enemy solid or stunning them with fire has it's uses.

i expect them to at least be useful. and the CC from those abilities is useless against single targets.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2015 by lautalocos

[Sy-kess]

that's a problem that is deeper in how the game works. 

 

even if ash shuriken completely removed the enemies armor, it would still not be as useful as bladestorm or using your guns, because with the amount of enemies the players has to fight at the same time, the player has to kill as fast as possible, or completely disable the enemy so that they can´t fight back

 

It was just a for example, they should take it in that direction, like having 4 types of abilities, one type on each warframe. 1 an AoE, 1 for utility, 1 for defense, and one as a gimmick for the warframe (To make it unique)

I'm not proposing any ideas, and what I postulated is in effect sort of. Everything would have to be fleshed out, I just think things should be more focused on utility, rather than making things dead. Even if making things dead is fun.

[Genoscythe]

First off, they are super cheap so I don't see why you expect so much out of them. Second, some of them are used for status, knockdown, cc, etc, not just killing and are mostly situational, as they should be. Freezing and enemy solid or stunning them with fire has it's uses.

Their cost-reward compared to 4th skills is not worth the talk, you have one shot with travel time in most cases that causes incredibly weak damage (less than a gun). You can just press 4 and wipe out enemies in a 15-50 meter radius.

 

I think first skills need proper damage scaling with enemy level(lets say frosts freeze: 700 ice + enemy level x10/15/20 damage, just a quick example). And instead of making them energy-based, they could become a warframes "base-attack" by having a cooldown, but increased damage while also having a light utility to them.

[Sy-kess]

Their cost-reward compared to 4th skills is not worth the talk, you have one shot with travel time in most cases that causes incredibly weak damage (less than a gun). You can just press 4 and wipe out enemies in a 15-50 meter radius.

 

I think first skills need proper damage scaling with enemy level(lets say frosts freeze: 700 ice + enemy level x10/15/20 damage, just a quick example). And instead of making them energy-based, they could become a warframes "base-attack" by having a cooldown, but increased damage while also having a light utility to them.

 

Cooldown for it might be cool, but that's a bit too MMO. Also it invites DE to put in CDs on all abilities which is not something I'd be down for.

[lautalocos]

It was just a for example, they should take it in that direction, like having 4 types of abilities, one type on each warframe. 1 an AoE, 1 for utility, 1 for defense, and one as a gimmick for the warframe (To make it unique)

I'm not proposing any ideas, and what I postulated is in effect sort of. Everything would have to be fleshed out, I just think things should be more focused on utility, rather than making things dead. Even if making things dead is fun.

i think that should depend of what DE wants that warframe to be. for me, its okay if they want to make a direct damage warframe, crowd control, utility, unique mechanics, or different mixes of those

 

i only want all of their abilities to be useful or limited usability (like bounce. i cant think of a single situation in which i would seriously use bounce, except for giggles)

[Genoscythe]

Cooldown for it might be cool, but that's a bit too MMO. Also it invites DE to put in CDs on all abilities which is not something I'd be down for.

Why MMO? I find cooldowns on first skill better because right now they are nto worth the talk, and like this we would at least have kind of a last resort. I never said put CDs on all abilities, that would cause horrible imbalance. However first skills right now are so weak for their energy cost that you could actually remove most of them (freeze, fireball, smite) if they wouldnt have augments.

[Bobtm]

It's not the 1 abilities in here that are the issue that's causing the problem.  It's the 4 abilities that are the culprit.  Ultimates aren't things meant to be thrown around willy nilly in basically every game that isn't Warframe.  This lends credence to other abilities as they're more readily available, leaving ultimates to be using with more care and grace.

 

Well in Warframe, ultimates have no limiters upon them.  They are thrown around because there's literally nothing stopping one from throwing them around like it's going out of style.  Even a game that's an unbalanced mess (Dynasty Warriors) imposes more limitations on ultimate spam than Warframe does at the moment.

 

If you completely stop using every 4, Warframe is still fully playable as a game.  What's more, you actually have to stop and actively think more as you're not invalidating all enemy existence.  These 4 abilities are pure excess in most cases, they trivialize content in its entirety.

 

Most 1 abilities are in a really good place at the moment.  They provide a meritable benefit swiftly, for a low cost(I do agree that their base cost could be lowered in some instances), this is ideal for a standard ability.

 

Giving these 1 abilities a cooldown wouldn't provide any benefit to them beyond when a player gets hit by a magnetic proc.  Ultimates will still be the elephant in the room due to their complete lack of limiters that's created by mod interaction.  Even if a 1 becomes free, our ultimates are still practically free, so the issue is no different.

[lautalocos]

snip

i do agree that the ultimates are way too easy to spam, and i think that problem has more to do with how easy it is to regain energy. but i still think 1 abilities are pretty weak (at least with most warframes)

 

even if we didnt have those ultimate skills, shooting is always going to be more powerful than using 1 abilities.