Loki And Nova Are Too Op. They Must Be Nerfed

[LordRaine]

Capping enemies to a small number reduces variety and choice for players.  The higher the enemy level, the more glassy players can be, the more reaction speed the players needs, the less room for error the player has, the less face tanking they can get away with, the faster the players die.  Capping enemy level produces less choice in how fast the game play is.

 

The same goes for capping enemy spawns.

What's the longest you've gone for in high level Defense, Survival, or Intercept?

 

I'm going to guess 30 minutes.

 

Nobody who has done more would ever argue AGAINST a cap on enemy levels. Nobody who actually hardcore ran Breeding Grounds would say any such thing.

 

"I want enemies to scale up forever, but not the frames!"

 

I've still got that picture of the level 2454 Infested from the old ODD knocking around here somewhere, I'll see if I can't find it.

 

Long story short, anyone who has tried to get more than one hit on the C Table rotation in a high level match knows that enemies need a cap.

 

I will reiterate what I said in the Sudacore debate: EVERYTHING needs to be hard capped at thirty, and then all mods need to be removed and replaced with a smaller pool of weapon and frame specific mods like the Ability Mods the Syndicates offer.

 

Pure damage mods are the cancer that completely ruins any attempt to balance anything to do with guns, and by extension, frames, because enemies will naturally be scaled to the guns, and thus run roughshod over any frame powers that cannot compete with crit built Amprexes and maximum dakka Boltor Primes.

 

Kill the damage mods. Rework the mod system to be smaller and better thought out, with each weapon only getting two or three mod slots and having the mods for them be powerful and change how they handle and feel, truly modifying the weapon. Pin all Warframes to four Ability mod slots, and force players to choose between an assortment of ability enhancement and ability modification frame mods that can make abilities more powerful or change what they do and how they work.

 

Weapon, frame, and enemy balance is more than possible, but you have to get rid of the root problem before any of it can be accurately addressed. In a world where no enemy goes beyond level 30 and pure damage mods don't exist, every weapon and frame can be balanced.

 

Look at my Boltor Prime. This is what I use to run long term Voids.

 

 

This is what is necessary to go into the Void and look for things like Volt Prime parts or that cool Prime weapon you want. This is what is needed to go about it efficiently and without wiping repeatedly. This is a perfectly built Boltor Prime with exactly the elements it needs to fight Void enemies (Viral+Heat) and exactly enough Forma on it to give it the space it needs to hold the mods it needs (4 Vs 2 -s). The only flaw it has is that I haven't gotten around to maxing Heavy Caliber. If I did, it would be perfect.

 

The only two mods on this weapon that do not directly increase the damage it deals are Shred and Multishot, and those are still increasing it's DPS by adding additional free bullets and higher fire rate.

 

This is literally what you have to have if you want to get anything done in the Void, and it's a perfect example of why damage mods are the root of the problem. This is the gun you need, it is the gun I use, and it is the cancer that is killing Warframe. As long as damage mods exist in this game, for both weapons and frames, you will NEVER GET ANY SORT OF REAL BALANCE FROM FRAMES, GUNS, AND ENEMIES. Never. It simply can not happen

[(PSN)Emperor_swiver]

Loki's disarm with Nova's MP is too OP and make defense missions dull and boring. Please nerf them to make the game more challenging. I suggest some minimum tweaks:

Loki disarm seems to be the only permanent cc in the game and is too OP. please add a duration to this ability.

Nova's MP already has superior damage bonus. speed debuff affected by power strength is overdone. please cap the maximum speed debuff to 30% or less.

I disagree completely, and furthermore I do not care for such blatant drivel.All I read in this area of our forum is collection of topics about,nerf the frames,this hit rather hard damn hard,and my favorite of all, Nerf this frame due to it taking all my kills.We as the fine ladies and gentleman of the tenno order are tasked with missions that put us up against insurmountable odds,with enemies that at the extreme end of the spectrum will dispatch our posteriors with but one attack. The frames mentioned are those frames you bring with you when such insurmountable odds are apparent, and you need all the fire power you can get.To Nerf everything would make a challenging mission a task instead of fun and grind wall so high the likes of me and you cannot see the top.

[(PSN)JiggaJazz]

Don't Nerf them, they're good but not deserving of a Nerf

You just don't like Disarm and Molecular Prime, nor do you like them in tandem with eachother. Yeah they're a strong combination together but they don't deserve a nerf

[STRKnight]

Capping enemy level produces less choice in how fast the game play is.

 

So you think needing to unload several magazines of ammo into a level 300 heavy's face to kill him somehow makes for a 'fast' gameplay?

Edited March 25, 2015 by STRKnight

[(PSN)BossNotACapo]

I've spent like 140 bucks on this game in like 5 months. LEAVE MY TOYS ALONE OR I WONT SPEND ANOTHER DIME.

[Youre_Waifu]

I've spent like 140 bucks on this game in like 5 months. LEAVE MY TOYS ALONE OR I WONT SPEND ANOTHER DIME.

 

I have some bad news for you, son.

[ThePresident777]

We enjoy Warframe just fine without "balance".  "Balance" is just another opinion.  Some people like it.  Some people don't.  And "balance" is not one means.  Even peole who like "balance" can disagree among themselves.

 

So, it is false to say that a game needs "balance" because it does not need it anymore than it needs one size fits all.

 

For broad appeal, what is necessary are divisions to keep competing interests separate.  It is also neccessary to respect customers or they will take their business elsewhere.  Truth in advertising is extremely important.

 

 

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

[vaugahn]

We enjoy Warframe just fine without "balance".  "Balance" is just another opinion.  Some people like it.  Some people don't.  And "balance" is not one means.  Even peole who like "balance" can disagree among themselves.

 

So, it is false to say that a game needs "balance" because it does not need it anymore than it needs one size fits all.

 

For broad appeal, what is necessary are divisions to keep competing interests separate.  It is also neccessary to respect customers or they will take their business elsewhere.  Truth in advertising is extremely important.

 

Except the quote you keep on misinterpreting has nothing to do with balance.

 

Enemies vs. players is the backdrop to balance, but balance is primarily among player choices. It doesn't matter whether the guns are dealing 10 damage or 1000 damage, so long as they're in balance with each other and both seem like viable options.

 

When 90% of the options in a game are obsolete compared to the remaining 10%, you know there's a problem. Deny it all you want, but that won't make the problem go away.

[Inarticulate]

Obvious solution: remove infinite scaling of enemy stats. Cap them within a certain level range and scale difficulty through enemy composition/type.

So after an hour of Tower 4 Survival, it's going to be 25% Nullifiers and 75% Bombards and nothing else? I'm in.

[ThePresident777]

People keep telling DE to follow Extra credits and make the game like Dark Souls: 

 

 

When DE does just that, those same people then complain and continue to pretend that "balance" is universal and that mistreating customers is of no consequence.  It's a fantastic point of view they have.

[vaugahn]

People keep telling DE to follow Extra credits and make the game like Dark Souls: 

 

Nobody says that. You say that, and then try to defeat your own made-up opposition.

[LazyKnight]

Whats the point of this topic anyway? That team game-play makes the game too easy? This has always been a problem and not related to those two, but on how aura stack and how much 'cc' a group can bring.

 

The game is far more balanced for the single player experience. Most of the imbalance people keep bring up are what groups do as you can not achieve those result solo.

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

I've gone into the raid plenty of times without Novas.

 

Never been a lack of Lokis though.

Loki is one of the few if not the only one that has all useful skills. I even use switch teleport(only with decoy). If all frames had a full set of useful skills then we would see a larger verity of frames. Another Example: Mag VS Corpus in normal missions I am sure you see alot of her. Only bad skill she has is bullet attractor. 

[CandyDragon]

You will notice over time that frames with "scaling" abilities are more favored due to the impossible task of balancing against infinite scaling otherwise for damage frames.

[ThePresident777]

It's a patently false assertion that no one has told DE to follow Extra Credits and that no one has told DE to make the game like Dark Souls.  A forum search will prove it to anyone who hasn't been on these forums for two years reading nerf threads.  It hasn't been said much lately but it used to be common for people to tell DE to follow Extra Credits or Dark Souls for "balance".

 

DE has done just that, giving Warframe a Dark Souls 2 style difficulty-via-content mechanism, yet people complain about "balance" and move the goal posts by constantly using "balance" to signify what they want.  Funny how the concept of "balance" is never applied to lopsided appeal to different tastes.  No one promoting "balance" ever tells DE that the Warframe Concept is suitable to a variety of tastes and implementations and that it's overly reliant on much less than it is capable of.  Somehow narrow appeal is not considered un-"balanced" and OP in focus by people who avidly rail against OP and im-"balance".

 

Also the point that The Core of Warframe is about 4 Tenno Devastate Enemy Armies continues to be missed.  It says the core of Warframe is OP.  So to complain about content being OP misses what The Core of Warframe is about.  If there is any argument for "balance" in Warframe's Core, it's to "balance" up to OP as implied by 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Enemy Armies.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ThePresident777

[vaugahn]

Also the point that The Core of Warframe is about 4 Tenno Devastate Enemy Armies continues to be missed.  It says the core of Warframe is OP.  So to complain about content being OP misses what The Core of Warframe is about.  If there is any argument for "balance" in Warframe's Core, it's to "balance" up to OP as implied by 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Enemy Armies.

 

I think you have a critical misunderstanding as to how PvE balance works.

[(XBOX)LilHypezKiid]

It's not that they're OP... they're really good at what they do. 

[HibikiGanaha]

I run 4 thru 8 man raids with zero lokis or novas in squad, and my squad holds top position in the leaderboards.

 

http://content.warframe.com/dynamic/raidStatsArchive.php

 

Those two frames are not OP, its just the meta of the game and the synergy that they have that complements each other. 

sidestream ignored me when I called him out on his bad argument, I would love to see what he has to say to one of the top raid players calling him out on his bad argument.

[SIDESTRE4M]

sidestream ignored me when I called him out on his bad argument, I would love to see what he has to say to one of the top raid players calling him out on his bad argument.

 

It's not the point of beeing impossible or not, but rather that we have meta frames. That's all. Because some people survived crashs without airbags doesn't mean we don't need airbags.

 

It's the same discussion about nullifiers. They are the result of bad scaling and the answer to our op-ness. Are they good for the game? Barely. Can we deal with them? Yes.

 

I nearly succeeded doing the escalation event solo with loki. Try that with other frames and you find out how narrow the selection will become.

 

Go to simulacrum, chose some level 90 bombards/heavy gunners and see for youself which frames are best for dealing with them. I suggest trying ember first.

 

Now Ember may be a bad example, but it is merely meant to show how easy it is with certain frames while other frames are struggling to be of use at all.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[LordRaine]

We enjoy Warframe just fine without "balance".  "Balance" is just another opinion.  Some people like it.  Some people don't.  And "balance" is not one means.  Even peole who like "balance" can disagree among themselves.

Yes. And you know what else fits that criteria? Fun. Warframe is doing just fine without "fun." "Fun" is just another opinion. Some people like a game where all the content is grinding for dozens of hours to not get the functionally worthless baubles they sort of thought looked neat. Some people think that's completely idiotic and an utter waste of time. And "fun" is not one means. Even people who like "fun" can disagree among themselves. 

 

Fun is opinion. Suffering is entertainment. Thoughtcrime is slavery. Embrace eternity.

 

Enemies vs. players is the backdrop to balance, but balance is primarily among player choices. It doesn't matter whether the guns are dealing 10 damage or 1000 damage, so long as they're in balance with each other and both seem like viable options.

 

When 90% of the options in a game are obsolete compared to the remaining 10%, you know there's a problem. Deny it all you want, but that won't make the problem go away.

Exactly. If player choice is not balanced, then players will naturally gravitate towards the more powerful end of the spectrum. The dross will be thrown out and ignored while the diamonds in the rough are polished extensively and, by natural extension, used exclusively, not just for the endgame content, but for all content. Which then makes everyone cry about how 'overpowered' certain weapons are, and cry for nerfs, as though we should be lowering the bar instead of raising it. As though 'nerfs' would actually address the real problem at hand.

 

I made my six Forma Boltor Prime, but why should I refrain from using it elsewhere now that I have it? What motivation do I have to kill enemies by shooting them multiple times when a single bullet from a fully automatic rifle will instantly kill them? 

 

There is no reason beyond personal preference to deliberately handicap myself, and I would only do so if doing so was more entertaining than the alternative, i.e. not handicapping myself. It is not more entertaining. Grind is, OBJECTIVELY, not fun. No one enjoys smacking the same boss over and over again to get the one Frame part that has a 5% drop chance. No one has fun spending fourty minutes in the Void, wasting their time, keys, and resources to not get anything of real value.

 

So it naturally follows that any sane person would want to minimize how much grind they have to suffer through, whether it's the big grinds, like in the Void, or the small ones, like punching Salad in the face for Neural Sensors. Why should I not use my Boltor Prime on him? Why would I not want to kill him as fast as possible, and just get on with it already? What is in it for me? Certainly not in-game rewards. The faster you go, the more rewards you can get in the least amount of time. Certainly not entertainment. I don't see anything entertaining about taking fifteen minutes to kill Alad V with a party when I could kill him myself solo and extract in less than five.

 

The only real enjoyment many people can wring out of Warframe these days is to see just how fast they can go, just how throughly and efficiently they can grease the rusty wheels of the grind. To many people, the only fun to be had is in how much tedium can be killed.

 

It is indicative of just how little truly entertaining content DE has given us that so many resort to pushing the meta of the game to it's limits and ignoring "intended" gameplay in an effort to find anything remotely fun.

 

Loki is one of the few if not the only one that has all useful skills. I even use switch teleport(only with decoy). If all frames had a full set of useful skills then we would see a larger verity of frames. Another Example: Mag VS Corpus in normal missions I am sure you see alot of her. Only bad skill she has is bullet attractor. 

Loki is not one of the few. He is the only Warframe with four useful skills. The only Warframes that have more than two useful powers are Limbo, Loki, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, and Trinity. Of them, only Loki has all four as being worth your time. Nova USED to be the other "all four are useful," but that involved exploiting a mathmatical glitch that allowed her to deal theoretically infinite damage with Antimatter Drop. DE never fixed this glitch, but they did accidentially prevent it from working as a consequence of patching something obliquely related.

 

So no. Loki is the only one. Very few frames have three abilities that are usful. Most only have two, a fair number have only one, and a couple have zero useful abilities as it stands right now. 

 

Rip Excalibur and Ember. Thanks for stealth patching line of sight back in, DE, after being forced to roll it back because your community told you it was a stupid and pointless nerf to an already underpowered and underperforming frame. You really fixed the game by making Excalibur worthless. The cosmic balance of the universe is in working order once again. Good job.

 

It's a patently false assertion that no one has told DE to follow Extra Credits and that no one has told DE to make the game like Dark Souls. 

 

DE has done just that, giving Warframe a Dark Souls 2 style difficulty-via-content mechanism

 

Also the point that The Core of Warframe is about 4 Tenno Devastate Enemy Armies continues to be missed.  It says the core of Warframe is OP.  So to complain about content being OP misses what The Core of Warframe is about.  If there is any argument for "balance" in Warframe's Core, it's to "balance" up to OP as implied by 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Enemy Armies.

 

It is also a patently false assertion to try and tell people that because one idiot compared Warframe to Dark Souls that one time, the rest of us can't complain when DE makes terrible changes that ruin the game.

 

Assigning the opinion of the one to the many and attacking a strawman to prove a point are both logical fallacies. 

 

Also, if you think DE has done anything to remotely make Warframe "like Dark Souls," then I can only assume you either have never played Dark Souls or have never played Warframe. Possibly both.

 

Dark Souls is a melee centric game based around stamina management that features dedicated PvP and plenty of enemies and bosses that teach and enforce the basics of blocking, dodging, and positioning. 

 

Warframe is a gun centric game with laughable melee combat based around power management and weapon mod aquisition that features a brand new and unbalanced PvP experience, a vestigal stamina system that Scott refuses to remove even though it is completely irrelevant and only serves to stop people from spriting all the time (which is entirely reasonable; it's not like we're a bunch of tech-organic super ninjas or anything, right), enemies and bosses that teach and enforce how important it is to have better guns and mods, and a highly elaborate gameplay mechanic built around enforced invincibility phases that hone the player's ability to stand around and do nothing for five minutes until the boss is vulnerable again.

 

Literally the only thing they have in common is that they are third person, feature swords, have a stamina system, and contain unavoidable NPCs that will not SHUT THE HELL UP. By that logic, DE is trying to make Warframe more like Dragon's Dogma. Personally, I don't think that would be a bad move. DD is a much better game, all things considered. We certainly don't live in a world where DE will ever allow an armor clad Rhino to climb up on top of Lephantis and start punching it in the meat flute with his bare hands.

 

And Dark Souls lets you kill the annoying NPCs if you want to. DE still won't let me stab Ordis, or punch the Lotus in the mouth, or explain to Simaris that personal space is a thing and if he doesn't respect it I'll start scanning in rare earth magnets for him to deal with.

 

GUESS WHAT GUYS

 

IT'S THE GRINEER

 

YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING, DID YOU

 

OF COURSE YOU DIDN'T

 

THAT'S WHY I TOLD YOU ABOUT IT

 

I'M SO GREAT, ALL HAIL ME

 

WHAT'S THAT? DOUBLE DOORS?

 

NAH, I ONLY OPEN THOSE FOR YOU WHEN YOU'RE ALONE

 

WAIT FOR YOUR FRIEND WHO IS EIGHT THOUSAND MILES BEHIND YOU

 

I'M TOO BUSY DOING IMPORTANT THINGS

 

LIKE TELLING OTHER TENNO TO WATCH OUT FOR THE GRINEER

[Towermice]

So you're saying Loki, the frame only frame that scales perfectly with all abilities across the board, the only frame that is actually balanced out and polished, is overpowered. Warframe community everyone.

[Avalona]

Can you people stop trying to nerf everything you don't like and/or Killsteal you (who the hell care about your overall damage contribution?!)

[Duyet]

Mirage needs a nerf too. Way too much DPS for a single frame. Hall of Mirrors + Eclipse = a S#&$ ton of damage.

[IShaco]

they nerfed excalibur and he wasnt op. so i say its ok to nerf something that actually deserves a nerf. nova is op. loki is op. so i hope it happens soon 

[LordRaine]

Mirage needs a nerf too. Way too much DPS for a single frame. Hall of Mirrors + Eclipse = a S#&$ ton of damage.

 

they nerfed excalibur and he wasnt op. so i say its ok to nerf something that actually deserves a nerf. nova is op. loki is op. so i hope it happens soon 

Please go back to Mercury.